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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Coming from a nations that has socalised healthcare.( australia) it is difficult to see why
the american people are so afraid of it. anytime i read an artical or see a vid on it everyone is worrying its the end of the world non stop ending paperwork to see a doctor.

some say politions and beaurcrats tell you what you can have ect.

everything ive seen that is feared is not nearly anywhere near true.


example i need to go to a doctor.
I call and make an apointment. i arrive at the doctors.
I give them my medicare card.( a medicare card is issued to all australian residents reguardless of finanital status when you turn 18. while under 18 you are covered under your parents card.)

i then see a doctor. he examins me. i get what ever treatment. he prescribes. take a script to the pharmachy of needed. pay for it and go home.

How hard is that, and what could possibly be wrong with it.
You never get turned away due to exisitng conditions.
A Doctor will help you will all aspects of any illness you have. you have no need to hide anything at all. the more the doctor knows the better treatment he can provide.

a percentage of the cost of medications gets refunded. off of the price. when you purchase.

the cost of this service comes out of the tax system. but we are not heavily taxed considering some areas.

there is a market for private healthcare but that come in mainly for hospital visits. for child birth operations ect. if you want private rooms ect.
which in the case you pay for out of your pocket.

Australia, the UK, France, Cuba, all of these and more have socalised health care and everyone is happy.

Now for you who are thinking that im a complete communist. im not. there are good aspects of socalism. and there are bad. just as there are good and bad aspects to democracy, hearldry,

even capatlism has its place but id taken too far it eventually destroys the economy. becasue people become too greedy. what is needed is a combination of all of these prinicpals. not to be afraid of extreemist ideas from the cold war. just becasue some dictators have taken an ideal too far and warped the first intended nature of the system doesnt mean that certain parts arnt good ones and that they can strenghten a nation as a whole.

there is a time for helping each other, to give everyone the oppertunity to succeed and the ones that put in the effort do so. But not with total freedom to do as they see fit there still should be some guidelines to ensure the big corperations dont hold the markets and economy in a noose.


anyway theres my two cents
 

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Coming from a nations that has socalised healthcare.( australia) it is difficult to see why
the american people are so afraid of it. anytime i read an artical or see a vid on it everyone is worrying its the end of the world non stop ending paperwork to see a doctor.

some say politions and beaurcrats tell you what you can have ect.

everything ive seen that is feared is not nearly anywhere near true.


example i need to go to a doctor.
I call and make an apointment. i arrive at the doctors.
I give them my medicare card.( a medicare card is issued to all australian residents reguardless of finanital status when you turn 18. while under 18 you are covered under your parents card.)

i then see a doctor. he examins me. i get what ever treatment. he prescribes. take a script to the pharmachy of needed. pay for it and go home.

How hard is that, and what could possibly be wrong with it.
You never get turned away due to exisitng conditions.
A Doctor will help you will all aspects of any illness you have. you have no need to hide anything at all. the more the doctor knows the better treatment he can provide.

a percentage of the cost of medications gets refunded. off of the price. when you purchase.

the cost of this service comes out of the tax system. but we are not heavily taxed considering some areas.

there is a market for private healthcare but that come in mainly for hospital visits. for child birth operations ect. if you want private rooms ect.
which in the case you pay for out of your pocket.

Australia, the UK, France, Cuba, all of these and more have socalised health care and everyone is happy.

Now for you who are thinking that im a complete communist. im not. there are good aspects of socalism. and there are bad. just as there are good and bad aspects to democracy, hearldry,

even capatlism has its place but id taken too far it eventually destroys the economy. becasue people become too greedy. what is needed is a combination of all of these prinicpals. not to be afraid of extreemist ideas from the cold war. just becasue some dictators have taken an ideal too far and warped the first intended nature of the system doesnt mean that certain parts arnt good ones and that they can strenghten a nation as a whole.

there is a time for helping each other, to give everyone the oppertunity to succeed and the ones that put in the effort do so. But not with total freedom to do as they see fit there still should be some guidelines to ensure the big corperations dont hold the markets and economy in a noose.


anyway theres my two cents
You are about to lose the quality of care you get. Medical innovation is driven by profit. Most medical innovation comes out of the US. As it is Doctors are slowly being paid less and less as insurance companies become more powerful Now the government is going to tell the insurance companies they have to charge less, so not only will care quality here drop, people will be less driven to become doctors as the cost of the education is too high as opposed to what they will get paid and how long it will take them to pay it back and the amount of interest they will end up paying, so there will be less medical innovation. Ergo the whole world will suffer. This isnt my personal theory, I read this in a recent copy of my wife's cousin's ( he is a member of our group) New England Medical Journal in an article where they were telling Doctors not to vote for Obama and why.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
We dont deal with insuance companies. doctors have their own. for coverance.

we do alot of our own developemnt. and while new drugs maynot come on the market. out standard of care wont drop. our doctors are paid by the govt. not by people or corperations. if the doctors care goes down he goes out of busniness.

there are strick standards they have to adhere to.
 

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We dont deal with insuance companies. doctors have their own. for coverance.

we do alot of our own developemnt. and while new drugs maynot come on the market. out standard of care wont drop. our doctors are paid by the govt. not by people or corperations. if the doctors care goes down he goes out of busniness.

there are strick standards they have to adhere to.
It's irrelevant who pays them, here it would be based on an insurance company doing it under government control.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
thats the point of our health care system it is not privatised. the govt has control and sets the rules. private insurance. will get you a bed in a hospital, and an operation for a fee. sometimes quicker than the general healthcare. sometimes not.

for it to work the entire medical insurance system would have to be thrown out.

and the govt takes the resposibility. it would take time to adjust. certainly.
as long as the coperations control things. it will always be about profit.

while socalised healthcare is about getting people better.

i know people that have had 10's of thousands of dollars of medical treatments ( cancer) and its all supplied what every then need its theirs. and if the get cancer down the track again. there is no penalty for an exisitnig disease. to have all the care you need. the people need to step out from under the thumb of the corps. and demand more.
 

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Honestly, I feel safer knowing that there may be a little competition between doctors.

I have no issues with my health care provider, other than it is expensive.. If you want a better car, you have to pay for it.. If you can't afford it, you drive a beater.. You make due with what you have. If everyone was to own the same car, and it was a controlled system, sure the people who couldn't afford a car, would really LOVE the inexpensive and unreliable piece of crap the state just gave them.. But the people who are used to driving Mercedes, would not be as happy to be forced to downgrade.

And look what the government has done to our school system.. They have proven that they can do NOTHING but ruin things.. Screw socialized health care in this country! What may work someplace else is not constitutional here.
 

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There will always be competition between doctors as they are competing for patients. They get and maintain more patients based on providing good service and through good word of mouth recommendation. That doesn't change regardless of which system (insurance/socialized) one falls under. I've 'fired' enough doctors in my time to understand this. *chuckle*





Honestly, I feel safer knowing that there may be a little competition between doctors.

I have no issues with my health care provider, other than it is expensive.. If you want a better car, you have to pay for it.. If you can't afford it, you drive a beater.. You make due with what you have. If everyone was to own the same car, and it was a controlled system, sure the people who couldn't afford a car, would really LOVE the inexpensive and unreliable piece of crap the state just gave them.. But the people who are used to driving Mercedes, would not be as happy to be forced to downgrade.

And look what the government has done to our school system.. They have proven that they can do NOTHING but ruin things.. Screw socialized health care in this country! What may work someplace else is not constitutional here.
 

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What specific part of our Constitution does the idea of socialized medicine breach?
The idea that government would be controlling it as they are an increasing number of aspects of our life, little by little.
Socializing health care would just be one more notch toward complete socialism in this country.

If I lived in Venezuela where it may work for them, I would probably feel differently, as I do with most of what Hugo is doing.. I think the system works well in some places.. Just not here. if we had no constitution, then I wouldn't know any better and would just support the government giving us as many handouts as possible.. But I don't agree that they should be involved, and not only growing larger, but much more oppressive.
 

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Again- I ask- what specific part of the Constitution would the idea of socialized healthcare be breaching? (I'm looking for a quote from the document itself here.)

I'm not saying I LIKE socialized healthcare- I have great government benefits that I enjoy... But I can see alot of people who can't afford insurance *at all* and that does concern me. So I'm not really sure WHAT I feel about the healthcare situation. Frankly I think that neither the current system NOR socialization is the answer. (Clearly socialized education has failed...)

But seriously- I'd like some documentation on the constitutional issue. Not saying I disbelieve you- just saying I'd like the documentation.


The idea that government would be controlling it as they are an increasing number of aspects of our life, little by little.
Socializing health care would just be one more notch toward complete socialism in this country.

If I lived in Venezuela where it may work for them, I would probably feel differently, as I do with most of what Hugo is doing.. I think the system works well in some places.. Just not here. if we had no constitution, then I wouldn't know any better and would just support the government giving us as many handouts as possible.. But I don't agree that they should be involved, and not only growing larger, but much more oppressive.
 

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Again- I ask- what specific part of the Constitution would the idea of socialized healthcare be breaching?

None specifically.. There's no line in the constitution stating that socialized health care is bad.. It's the concept of socialized health care itself that causes me to believe this.. So I guess I should have stated that I FEEL that it would be unconstitutional, rather than stating it as a fact..

I also FEEL that the patriot act is unconstitutional though, even though it appears to have passed with flying colors and most of America thinks it's a great program.
 

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Why wouldn't it work here? Our country is gigantic, and we have huge parts of our population who are lazy jerks that just don't want to do anything.
 

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In a perfect world perhaps a "socialized" health care system in the US would be a neat idea. However it took what? 5 days to get drinking water to New Orleans, do we really want our health care in the hands of this governement? I see it becoming a monumentus disaster of none-organization. I see extremely sub standard care with constant cutbacks and cost cutting. SImply put I do not think the US government is capable to run the show.
 

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There is a very dark side to non socialized med. Socialized health care tend to use less medication, they only use what actually is needed. Diagnoses are made out of necessity, meaning you don't get one for every little thing. Free market health care means there will be an almost endless flow of medication. Socialized med doesn't want this, since "it" has to pay for it. Also, the cost of medication is up to 10 times (what the med company actually charges) in a country with free market health care.

I see Americans with similar problems as me, I have a few diagnoses, they, on the other hand, have many more, and many more severe ones. Also they are given much, much more medication. Where I take one med, they take seven. I have a friend who are currenly on 13 different meds, and every time he gets a problem they add a med, without taking one off.

American doctors might be better educated. But they are also pushed by the market to prescribe a perverse amount of medication that will make people victims and passive, instead of proactive about their illness.

Here we have both. You can either just use the universal system. If you are not happy, you can get an extra insurance. You can go to a private physician. Then of course you can be mad you already payed for this with taxes, but I've payed taxes for things I never really used (and other things I disagree with).

I'm not saying socialized med has to be super. Our health care is really lousy. As for research and education we are top notch (you would know if you read medical magazines). Health care here can be good, within the socialized system. ER care is still good. But a lot of the rest is actually really horrible. There are some major flaws that would not happen so easily with another system.

I have a lot of American friends who can no longer afford insurance and medication they really need. I think that is really awful. Here, on the other hand, you could get on a mile long waiting list and actually die before the doctor sees you.
 

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socialized health care/insurance is nothing to be afraid of.

Are you confident your fire dept will show up if your house is on fire? -that's a socialized service for the good of the community, why can't health care be also?

very very very few people in socialized health care systems complain about the level of service they get.

We are the only country in the western world without a form of socialized medicine.

It's ridiculous.

We have a lower life expectancy, a higher infant mortality rate than countries with socialized medicine.

Do innocent children not deserve health care?

If you disagree with socialized medicine because you don't want to pay for anyone else, please realize you already pay for police, fire, education, highway systems, postal services and many other programs (of course some questionable) that are needed in society.

why would you turn your back on your fellow man?

WWJD? Would he support health care for all?
 

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the way our govt manages things can you really believe it will be done efficiently?

name one thing they do cost effectively?

and ill bet they do not have the number of lawyers chasing big settlements as we do ---- this tends to drive up costs -- and if you think washington will limit lawsuits to help control costs----- take another toke.

the things i hear of socialised medicine arent the same rosy picture.
the man responsible for the canadian system has even admitted it doesnt work.
 

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I have a question for the members from countries with socialized medicine: Are doctors rewarded financially for their years of education? What I mean is, a doctor has to endure 8-12 years of extra education in the name of becoming a healthcare provider. Under the US system, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is a healthy income. In the US, becoming a doctor means $200K-$300K of debt upon graduating, but this is acceptable due to the possible income.

I ask because my wife is in Dental school right now, and in 18 months will graduate with about $200K in student loans. If she is forced to give care and get a government salary that is only say $50K, all her effort and financial output will have been in vain.

So, do Doctors in Australia/Canada/etc make a good living? And how does the education system work there for doctors? Thanks for answering, I am genuinely concerned about this.
 

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Honestly, why do you all worry about this... it's GOVERNMENT well all be old and Grey and onto a new president before they ever figure out how to do this properly and pass it, and it can't be any worse that our current medicare/medicaid(well ok - it could be, but man that would suck). I make a decent salary and have good health coverage today, but I also want others to have it too, no way HMO's are going out of business(I pray they would but it wont happen) - they own health care if anything they'll be around for ever.
 
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