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I think the best thing one can do is spend the time/money and obtain competent training from someone who knows what happens when the **** hits the fan. People like me who have not been to war cannot possibly know 100% how to be "ready", but one can learn a LOT from someone who has been there, done that, survived the Black Hawk Down incident, etc. and trains others on how to shoot and act when their world comes down around their ears, as well.
 

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I think the best thing one can do is spend the time/money and obtain competent training from someone who knows what happens when the **** hits the fan. People like me who have not been to war cannot possibly know 100% how to be "ready", but one can learn a LOT from someone who has been there, done that, survived the Black Hawk Down incident, etc. and trains others on how to shoot and act when their world comes down around their ears, as well.
I 2nd that! :thumb:
we are always in the process of refining our skills and building.
 

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Good post. You´re absolutely right about many things. I agree about the benchrest shooting.

Pfff shooting is hard. I'm training prone unsupported and after training every week a year long, I can hit a 5 or 6 inch plate at 100m fairly reliably (shooting AK). Shooting in unsupported standing position is hard. First shot is okay but then fatigue kicks in and you start shaking and stuff.

Am I the only one who finds it hard?

Is signed by Wolfe, who is dedicated but not very talented :-(
what you could try is putting the same kind of practice into off hand that you put into your prone shooting. shooting off hand, kneeling & unconventional positions takes time & practice.

please notice that I make no reference to sitting position as I feel this is useless.
 

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: So...about that "accuracy", "reliability", and "stopping power" thing

Warning; Long ass post. I hope to help anyone with this thread, not bash.

You know, I get a little frustrated with the whole "I shoot .5 moa" or "I killed Sasquatch at 1,500,000 yards with a .22" or blah blah blah. Almost none of this matters as much as you think, especially for SHTF and combat.

Before I go any further, For the record and a little background, my go to rifle is a PTR91k. My next, truck gun, and family handouts are all AK47s. This might make me biased, so what. Unlike a lot of bias people I've actually owned what I am bias against. (Ar15s) As far as the traits listed in the title, I recommend at the very LEAST a 5.56 or 5.45 rifle. That's at the absolute bare minimum. I recommend .308 personally.

but....to be frank....

What matters more than any ballistic table or myth is what YOU are comfortable with, and what YOU don't mind humping around, and what YOU trust with YOUR life. If you trust it, and you chose to carry it, that's YOUR preference. I'm not going to argue why I chose a MBR, or why you need to sell your AR.

So if you have no doubts about your rifle, and your abilities with said rifle, then you shouldn't pay any mind to anything, I, or anybody says about it. If you do, maybe you need to reexamine your choice. Consider your surroundings, possible and likely combat situations and your abilities.

Just make sure of a few things, no matter what tool you carry;



*Zero your rifle.


This to me, is common sense. But some people still don't mind hitting minute of barn at 50m. Also, check your zero from time to time, or after adjustments. Also, a lot of people don't even know how to aim their rifle. Proper sight alignment can mean a lot. Use your manual, or the google search bar, somewhere over there ---->

Here's some over simplified and all inclusive links.
(Russian sight alignment; http://www.ak-47.net/images/sight2.gif
American sight alignment; http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...sight_alignment_FM_3-22.9_(23-9)_Fig_4-17.png

AK47 zero; http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/sightingin.html
AR15 zero; http://ar15zeroing.com/)

Even you AK guys. There's a AK sight tool that can get your rifle 3moa or much better @ 100 w/ practice and time. That is more than enough, as, believe it or not, a 3moa group @100 is widely considered combat acceptable for M16s and M4s.

(AK47 sight tool; http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/49630-6.html )



*Learn your rifle, inside and out.


If you don't know how to completely disassemble your rifle for complete inspection or cleaning, learn. Get proficient with field stripping and cleaning specifically. If you are in the s**t and don't clean good enough, fast enough, you might get in some trouble. I also suggest learning how your rifle works, researching some common issues that could arise, and learning how to trouble shoot. You can't take your rifle to a smith while being chased by evil nazi zombies... or the batf, same thing.

AR15; http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/maintenance/
AK47; http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/akFieldStripping/ , http://www.guerrillagunsmith.com/akdetailed.htm

*Know your gear
Don't fear looking like a retard to your wife. Dress up in your gear, and practice changing mags, or drawing your ka-bar. Just do it. Learn how you like them situated, and keep them there. Practice it often. You don't want to be bobbling mags around while getting shot at. Having familiarity with where stuff is, and how to get it out is pretty important.

*Know your limitations

I really hope you know how to use your rifle, but also realize exposing yourself, and your position to fire a 450m shot with an AR15 might not be the best idea. Learn the max range of your rifle and what you are comfortable with. Without having to spend 10 minutes on a bench adjusting scopes or steadying on a sandbag. For most people about 250m is pretty much it, maybe a little further if you have a scoped rifle. (and know your rifle, your ammo, your weather conditions and your bullet drop.) Face it, most of us probably have no clue. Hell, most of us probably don't know 200m from 400m anyways. Practice range estimation. Use known distances, like a football field to practice. (Go to one, look from goal line to goal line, some people are truly taken in by how far and difficult a shot that can be.)

*Carry at least 120 rounds of anything.


For me, (Hk g3 pattern) that's 5 mags carried +1 inserted. To me, that's pretty light. I'm a big dude though. Plan on carrying a bunch of survival stuff too, so don't have 1K of .308 strapped on you. You'll get bogged down. No tealing how much other crap you will need to survive aside from ammo. Be sensible. I carry 8 mags+1 at the MAX unless I KNOW I will be in an extended fight with no resupply....(If I knew this I think my chances are pretty nill anyway.)

If you are like me, and think "rifleman" first 120-180rds is nothing to laugh at. If the S has HTF I sincerely hope you don't need 500rds in one firefight, and I also hope you have a base, rally point, cache or depot with more supplies.

*Clean your rifle
I don't care if you can shoot 10,000,000 rounds of wolf through your ar15 (or AK) before it's outstanding reliability becomes an issue. Clean your rifle when you can, and know that your accuracy will diminish a little after a few rounds. Unlike at the range, you can't swab it out every other shot to hit that sub-moa group in the middle of a firefight. Get familiar with your accuracy after your barrel heats up, and gets fouled.

*Learn how to shoot combat style.

This is what i want to stress, if you ignored anything else, at least understand this. Here's to you Mr. I hit dimes at 200m and will be a "sniper" if the SHTF...

You're not going to have a comfortable bench, with a few sandbags in combat. Sorry, your .25moa rifle isn't much better than my 2moa battle rifle if you can only use yours on a steady platform.

I suggest not ever shooting from a bench except to zero. Learn to shoot correctly. Learn to shoot unsupported from prone, crouched, and standing. Practice breath control. Make it all second nature, if not, when the **** starts flying you will forget everything and do whatever feels right.

The importance of practice; making some initially uncomfortable things turn into comfortable muscle memory. Just shooting some paper is not suitable training. Especially not from a bench. Learn to go without bi-pods too.

A decent start is reading some simple FMs or finding a former soldier... (fm 3-22.9, section II works ok...)

I hope this helps someone...

(upd.) Also, while this might sound like "duh" to some or maybe weird to others, learn to shoot with both eyes open, and force yourself to keep them open while shooting. (Wear EYE PRO) Not only does this take all of the fear, and anticipation away from firing, but also allows you to have eyes on target up until the very last moment, and be able to track quick follow ups. (It will take what seems like decades off of your next follow up shot.) You'd be surprised how many people get scared, or anxious blink, fire, and then repeat. Yea, be honest.

-H&C
so none of you are getting geared up for the 6.5mm or the 6.8mm that are being advertised to the military. are they out now? I thought this would be the next big step in small arms for the military
 

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Baseball players will sometime go back to the basics of playing catch to keep their throwing fast and accurate,not for the strike outs but getting outs and stopping stolen bases.
Consider the fun of good old fashioned playtime once in a while.
Plinking cans,bottles, paper plates, whatever at various random positions and distances will help learn and practice quick targeting and snap shooting.
Skeet or trap shooting is great for work on moving targets and if you have a buddy use a handheld thrower vs. a mounted launcher you can work on low angle shooting. Not straight at you from 20 yards away, please shoot responsibly.
Yes, i know people will look at ya funny when you go to a public range and shoot with a "tactical" shotgun or coach gun but the looks you get when you get 15 (or more) out of 20 with it will be priceless.
Practice with what you have. Get comfortable with it.Practice some more.Forget about fractions of minute of angle(do you even know how to do that math?) and just go make holes in paper plates for a day once in a while.
Nice thread, glad it came back around. The above highlighted is very true. I recently shot a course at a South Jersey sporting clays range with my 9 shot Mossberg 590. I got some laughs when we were uncasing our guns as everone else had very nice birdguns, but when I scored 35/50 the laughing died away.
 

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so none of you are getting geared up for the 6.5mm or the 6.8mm that are being advertised to the military. are they out now? I thought this would be the next big step in small arms for the military
No, we developed a reliable 5.56 round that fragments in soft tissue out to 600M.

Why would we go to a new caliber.
 

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so none of you are getting geared up for the 6.5mm or the 6.8mm that are being advertised to the military. are they out now? I thought this would be the next big step in small arms for the military
I, too, got a chuckle out of this quote. While some may believe that the military should go this way, most don't. I certainly don't. And for the gains; it's probably not cheap enough and there's no real need for the supposed gains for most military members anyways.. I think the correct solution is to leave 5.56 for the majority of the military; those with special needs will get what they need anyhow. 90% of the military are usually support with limited chances of needing anything more than 5.56; so getting a replacement would be an utter waste of money and resources. IMO, if one needs more powerful round than 5.56, well, 7.62x51 has been around for a while and serves nicely..

Replacing 5.56 with 6.8 or 6.5 means replacing all the mags, BCG's, barrels, buffers/and other parts etc on the current issue, plus spares, what's stored in the weapons stockpiles, plus changing out the ammo, etc - a very big task- for nearly no real gain for MOST. Nope, it makes more sense to leave it in place; those that need something special or more- get it. The wonder round nowadays for those hoping for a change is- the .300 blk- and it's not likely to get any further than 6.8 or 6.5 did- for the same reasons. lots of expense for no real gains.

I guess if you looked at it from some people's viewpoint, everyone in the military should be issued a .50 BMG semi-automatic rifle. Pain to carry around on guard duty; but perfect in case that clerk or truck driver needs to cap an enemy at 1500 yards.. OK, I was being facetious, but I think there's a point hidden in there..
 

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the .300 blk-
I forgot about that one! I don't see much use in switching. but I was hoping to jumpstart the discussion
 

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The OP makes some very good points. I think the best advise was to practice dynamic shooting, rather than static target practice. Target shooting for zeroing weapons, as well as honing marksmanship fundamentals is great. But we all need to train to respond to an unexpected threat (to the extent this is possible on a range, you are there to shoot, afterall) and engage targets in an unscripted manner.

Some of the best and easiest training you can do is to simply set out some steels at random (safety concerns re: angle and distance in mind) and either give yourself, or have someone else give you a threat alert, then engage at will without any attention to round count. You will fire the number of rounds it takes to stop a threat, get to better cover, disengage, allow someone else to move, etc. Sometimes that will be 1-2 rounds, others it might be half a mag or more. If you have the range equipment for it, make it truly dynamic, otherwise use your imagination, or the imagination of a range buddy, to determine what type of threat/s you are engaging, and respond accordingly.

Practice lateral movement, advance, retreat, moving to cover, shooting from cover, improvised positions (variations of modified prone, etc.), reloads, malfunction drills (dummy rounds/snap caps randomly placed in your mags are great for this) etc. If you are training with a buddy, also work on communication, and keep it simple.


Use this time to practice techniques you have learned from professional instructors....seriously, it makes a difference. I was practically born with a gun in my hand, grew up with multiple guns in the house, on rural land where I could just walk outside and go shoot whenever I wanted, and consequently I was a good marksman. I thought I understood how to employ that skill in a deadly force scenario, until I entered the LE profession and began professional training. Its an ongoing process. I continuously learn new things and there is always room for improvement, especially in perishable skills. We live in a time when quality professional firearms and tactical training is probably more available to civilians than ever before. take advantage of that!

The OP's advice to train in your gear is also excellent. Even professional shooters try out new stuff sometimes and find out things need to be rearranged, or just put back the way it was. I've done it on my duty belt more than once, as well as my plate carrier, backup weapon position/holster, etc. I have put on my plate carrier, fully loaded and run around the house, jumping up and down, going prone, standing in front of the mirror, etc. Yes, my wife thinks I'm a dork, but she also knows there is a good reason for doing it. Sometimes you just don't notice a logistical problem with your gear until its tested.

Great thread.
 

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One other thing... Think about scoping your rifle. Consider either mounting a telescopic sight on your rifle or else a tactical sight for closer range combat purposes. Scopes can work for you in TWO ways. #1. Yes, they might let you have the ability to shoot accurately at longer ranges like a sniper IF you've practiced shooting at those longer distances. #2. Scopes also give you ability to make more precise shots at closer ranges. In other words, you can hit smaller items that normally you might not be able to hit at some closer ranges. Sort of like hitting the top of a bottle at 100 yards. Normally you couldn't do that with iron sights but with a slight enhancement done by a scope you can hit that top.

If you want to bypass the idea of using scopes, consider getting a red dot sight or some other kind of dot sight system that works to your advantage. Trijicon Reflex Sights are another good choice when it comes to dot sight systems as well.

If you opt to avoid any and all scopes and dot sight systems, you might want to consider illuminated night sights or tritium sights for your rifle. These are glow-in-the-dark night sights. These are the most basic night sights available that you can get which will give you an edge for nighttime shooting. The idea behind going with using these sighting devices is that any one of them gives you an edge over what most of the other people will have. Think about it. Most people in a survival situation will have a basic AR or AK type rifle with iron sights on their rifle of choice. By enhancing your rifle now, you increase your accuracy, and possibly your longer range reach, over other people should you need to do so in an emergency. That's even if you and the other people have the same caliber and type of rifle. So, if you have an AK in 7.62 X 39 and Joe Smith has the same rifle/caliber and you meet up in a turkey shoot, you can pretty well expect to win the turkey.
 

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the .300 blk-
I forgot about that one! I don't see much use in switching. but I was hoping to jumpstart the discussion
If you've got the money to stock a CONEX full of ammo for Grendel, 6.8SPC, or 300 BLK (or any other unusual caliber) they are all good rounds with their own sets of trade offs. If things really go pear shaped, though, do you really want to be set up with a weapon where you can't scrounge, beg, borrow, or steal additional ammo and where your stash isn't something you can share with neighbors or trade/barter with others?

For a real apocalyptic scenario, a focus on commonly encountered calibers seems like the only real option for any firearm where you're going to potentially need a good quantity of ammunition.
 

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The way I like to practice my overconfident friends in off hand/ multi position is to have them answer simple math questions and spell words while someone else calls out left, right or center target. We then progress to reloading. You know what I mean. I love my H&Rs. So cheap to shoot and train on. Biodegradable skeet at 100+ yards is great fun with open sights. Just got to break in a new H&R .243. Started making a hole at 50yds open sights and a bean bag after only 70 rounds. The kids couldn't believe how far out they could break skeet.
 

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One other thing... Think about scoping your rifle. Consider either mounting a telescopic sight on your rifle or else a tactical sight for closer range combat purposes. Scopes can work for you in TWO ways. #1. Yes, they might let you have the ability to shoot accurately at longer ranges like a sniper IF you've practiced shooting at those longer distances. #2. Scopes also give you ability to make more precise shots at closer ranges. In other words, you can hit smaller items that normally you might not be able to hit at some closer ranges. Sort of like hitting the top of a bottle at 100 yards. Normally you couldn't do that with iron sights but with a slight enhancement done by a scope you can hit that top.

If you want to bypass the idea of using scopes, consider getting a red dot sight or some other kind of dot sight system that works to your advantage. Trijicon Reflex Sights are another good choice when it comes to dot sight systems as well.

If you opt to avoid any and all scopes and dot sight systems, you might want to consider illuminated night sights or tritium sights for your rifle. These are glow-in-the-dark night sights. These are the most basic night sights available that you can get which will give you an edge for nighttime shooting. The idea behind going with using these sighting devices is that any one of them gives you an edge over what most of the other people will have. Think about it. Most people in a survival situation will have a basic AR or AK type rifle with iron sights on their rifle of choice. By enhancing your rifle now, you increase your accuracy, and possibly your longer range reach, over other people should you need to do so in an emergency. That's even if you and the other people have the same caliber and type of rifle. So, if you have an AK in 7.62 X 39 and Joe Smith has the same rifle/caliber and you meet up in a turkey shoot, you can pretty well expect to win the turkey.
I have done this experiment on my 870 (trijicon tritium sights ) x2
both times the capsule of tritium broke & leaked out in a short period of time
the factory replaces one set and the replacement broke shortly after being put on. :xeye:

i didn't find that tritium sights worked that well on the 870 for low light
"disappointed"
went to a surefire for-end and haven't looked back. the light button takes some getting used to but manageable.
 

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I wish I could afford 120rds of centerfire ammo... At least I can afford .22 for practice. Anyways, I've always liked the formula of protection, firepower, and mobility. Basically you can only have really two of the three. I've chosen mobility and firepower because it is all I can afford and it fits my situation.
 

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I wish I could afford 120rds of centerfire ammo... At least I can afford .22 for practice. Anyways, I've always liked the formula of protection, firepower, and mobility. Basically you can only have really two of the three. I've chosen mobility and firepower because it is all I can afford and it fits my situation.
What I do is buy 3 boxes of ammo out of each paycheck (I get paid weekly) 2 for storage, and 1 to shoot. You would be surprised how quickly it adds up.
 

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Offhand shooting is definitely the hardest on precision and accuracy. It's also the quickest.
What many fail to realize is that NO ONE can hold a rifle steady offhand. To train for it hold on target and constantly re-aim. Eventually, you'll notice a pattern of figure 8's relative to your aiming point. The trick to actually hitting your target is to start your trigger pull just prior to crossing your aim point.

Another thing, even the best High Power shooters don't shoot anywhere near MOA. Accept it for what it is. Precision trumps accuracy. Say you're shooting at 300 yards at a 12" target. Which would you prefer, the target being hit 10 for 10 with a 10" group more or less centered or a half inch group 10" away from point of aim?
 
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