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المتخلف&
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5,508 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So...about that "accuracy", "reliability", and "stopping power" thing.

Warning; Long ass post. I hope to help anyone with this thread, not bash.

You know, I get a little frustrated with the whole "I shoot .5 moa" or "I killed Sasquatch at 1,500,000 yards with a .22" or blah blah blah. Almost none of this matters as much as you think, especially for SHTF and combat.

Before I go any further, For the record and a little background, my go to rifle is a PTR91k. My next, truck gun, and family handouts are all AK47s. This might make me biased, so what. Unlike a lot of bias people I've actually owned what I am bias against. (Ar15s) As far as the traits listed in the title, I recommend at the very LEAST a 5.56 or 5.45 rifle. That's at the absolute bare minimum. I recommend .308 personally.

but....to be frank....

What matters more than any ballistic table or myth is what YOU are comfortable with, and what YOU don't mind humping around, and what YOU trust with YOUR life. If you trust it, and you chose to carry it, that's YOUR preference. I'm not going to argue why I chose a MBR, or why you need to sell your AR.

So if you have no doubts about your rifle, and your abilities with said rifle, then you shouldn't pay any mind to anything, I, or anybody says about it. If you do, maybe you need to reexamine your choice. Consider your surroundings, possible and likely combat situations and your abilities.

Just make sure of a few things, no matter what tool you carry;



*Zero your rifle.


This to me, is common sense. But some people still don't mind hitting minute of barn at 50m. Also, check your zero from time to time, or after adjustments. Also, a lot of people don't even know how to aim their rifle. Proper sight alignment can mean a lot. Use your manual, or the google search bar, somewhere over there ---->

Here's some over simplified and all inclusive links.
(Russian sight alignment; http://www.ak-47.net/images/sight2.gif
American sight alignment; http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...sight_alignment_FM_3-22.9_(23-9)_Fig_4-17.png

AK47 zero; http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/sightingin.html
AR15 zero; http://ar15zeroing.com/)

Even you AK guys. There's a AK sight tool that can get your rifle 3moa or much better @ 100 w/ practice and time. That is more than enough, as, believe it or not, a 3moa group @100 is widely considered combat acceptable for M16s and M4s.

(AK47 sight tool; http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/49630-6.html )



*Learn your rifle, inside and out.


If you don't know how to completely disassemble your rifle for complete inspection or cleaning, learn. Get proficient with field stripping and cleaning specifically. If you are in the s**t and don't clean good enough, fast enough, you might get in some trouble. I also suggest learning how your rifle works, researching some common issues that could arise, and learning how to trouble shoot. You can't take your rifle to a smith while being chased by evil nazi zombies... or the batf, same thing.

AR15; http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/maintenance/
AK47; http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/akFieldStripping/ , http://www.guerrillagunsmith.com/akdetailed.htm

*Know your gear
Don't fear looking like a retard to your wife. Dress up in your gear, and practice changing mags, or drawing your ka-bar. Just do it. Learn how you like them situated, and keep them there. Practice it often. You don't want to be bobbling mags around while getting shot at. Having familiarity with where stuff is, and how to get it out is pretty important.

*Know your limitations

I really hope you know how to use your rifle, but also realize exposing yourself, and your position to fire a 450m shot with an AR15 might not be the best idea. Learn the max range of your rifle and what you are comfortable with. Without having to spend 10 minutes on a bench adjusting scopes or steadying on a sandbag. For most people about 250m is pretty much it, maybe a little further if you have a scoped rifle. (and know your rifle, your ammo, your weather conditions and your bullet drop.) Face it, most of us probably have no clue. Hell, most of us probably don't know 200m from 400m anyways. Practice range estimation. Use known distances, like a football field to practice. (Go to one, look from goal line to goal line, some people are truly taken in by how far and difficult a shot that can be.)

*Carry at least 120 rounds of anything.


For me, (Hk g3 pattern) that's 5 mags carried +1 inserted. To me, that's pretty light. I'm a big dude though. Plan on carrying a bunch of survival stuff too, so don't have 1K of .308 strapped on you. You'll get bogged down. No tealing how much other crap you will need to survive aside from ammo. Be sensible. I carry 8 mags+1 at the MAX unless I KNOW I will be in an extended fight with no resupply....(If I knew this I think my chances are pretty nill anyway.)

If you are like me, and think "rifleman" first 120-180rds is nothing to laugh at. If the S has HTF I sincerely hope you don't need 500rds in one firefight, and I also hope you have a base, rally point, cache or depot with more supplies.

*Clean your rifle
I don't care if you can shoot 10,000,000 rounds of wolf through your ar15 (or AK) before it's outstanding reliability becomes an issue. Clean your rifle when you can, and know that your accuracy will diminish a little after a few rounds. Unlike at the range, you can't swab it out every other shot to hit that sub-moa group in the middle of a firefight. Get familiar with your accuracy after your barrel heats up, and gets fouled.

*Learn how to shoot combat style.

This is what i want to stress, if you ignored anything else, at least understand this. Here's to you Mr. I hit dimes at 200m and will be a "sniper" if the SHTF...

You're not going to have a comfortable bench, with a few sandbags in combat. Sorry, your .25moa rifle isn't much better than my 2moa battle rifle if you can only use yours on a steady platform.

I suggest not ever shooting from a bench except to zero. Learn to shoot correctly. Learn to shoot unsupported from prone, crouched, and standing. Practice breath control. Make it all second nature, if not, when the **** starts flying you will forget everything and do whatever feels right.

The importance of practice; making some initially uncomfortable things turn into comfortable muscle memory. Just shooting some paper is not suitable training. Especially not from a bench. Learn to go without bi-pods too.

A decent start is reading some simple FMs or finding a former soldier... (fm 3-22.9, section II works ok...)

I hope this helps someone...

(upd.) Also, while this might sound like "duh" to some or maybe weird to others, learn to shoot with both eyes open, and force yourself to keep them open while shooting. (Wear EYE PRO) Not only does this take all of the fear, and anticipation away from firing, but also allows you to have eyes on target up until the very last moment, and be able to track quick follow ups. (It will take what seems like decades off of your next follow up shot.) You'd be surprised how many people get scared, or anxious blink, fire, and then repeat. Yea, be honest.

-H&C
 

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Banned
Joined
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3,760 Posts
Good post. You´re absolutely right about many things. I agree about the benchrest shooting.

Pfff shooting is hard. I'm training prone unsupported and after training every week a year long, I can hit a 5 or 6 inch plate at 100m fairly reliably (shooting AK). Shooting in unsupported standing position is hard. First shot is okay but then fatigue kicks in and you start shaking and stuff.

Am I the only one who finds it hard?

Is signed by Wolfe, who is dedicated but not very talented :-(
 

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Carpe Diem, Noctem Habere
Joined
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143 Posts
If you start shaking that fast you need to adjust your shooting position. A proper position should be fairly comfortable, but very sturdy and with good support. If you can try to find someone in the military (infantry) to show you. Basically, going from the ground up you want your feet a little more than shoulder width apart and either in line with each other or slightly offset with your weak side foot forward. Then you want your knees slightly bent, stick your butt out a little bit to create a lumbar curve in your spine. Your elbows should be in tight, almost resting on your chest.

It's kinda hard to describe over the internet, but once you get a good position down, you can move into other positions, shooting on the move, combat drills, and more advance techniques. It will probably feel a little uncomfortable at first, but with practice it becomes second nature.
 

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смерть н
Joined
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3,823 Posts
Most of this stuff people never think of. I shoot out in the country on both a set range and in a running and walking area we have set up as well. When the SHTF you will not be in one place and you must learn to shoot under all conditions. Those who do not will fail and/or die. Practice is a shooters best friend.

Thanks for the info H&C

HH54r
 

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You ARE what you IS!
Joined
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5,210 Posts
Warning; Long ass post. I hope to help anyone with this thread, not bash.

You know, I get a little frustrated with the whole "I shoot .5 moa" or "I killed Sasquatch at 1,500,000 yards with a .22" or blah blah blah. Almost none of this matters as much as you think, especially for SHTF and combat.

Before I go any further, For the record and a little background, my go to rifle is a PTR91k. My next, truck gun, and family handouts are all AK47s. This might make me biased, so what. Unlike a lot of bias people I've actually owned what I am bias against. (Ar15s) As far as the traits listed in the title, I recommend at the very LEAST a 5.56 or 5.45 rifle. That's at the absolute bare minimum. I recommend .308 personally.

but....to be frank....

What matters more than any ballistic table or myth is what YOU are comfortable with, and what YOU don't mind humping around, and what YOU trust with YOUR life. If you trust it, and you chose to carry it, that's YOUR preference. I'm not going to argue why I chose a MBR, or why you need to sell your AR.

So if you have no doubts about your rifle, and your abilities with said rifle, then you shouldn't pay any mind to anything, I, or anybody says about it. If you do, maybe you need to reexamine your choice. Consider your surroundings, possible and likely combat situations and your abilities.

Just make sure of a few things, no matter what tool you carry;



*Zero your rifle.


This to me, is common sense. But some people still don't mind hitting minute of barn at 50m. Also, check your zero from time to time, or after adjustments. Also, a lot of people don't even know how to aim their rifle. Proper sight alignment can mean a lot. Use your manual, or the google search bar, somewhere over there ---->

Here's some over simplified and all inclusive links.
(Russian sight alignment; http://www.ak-47.net/images/sight2.gif
American sight alignment; http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...sight_alignment_FM_3-22.9_(23-9)_Fig_4-17.png

AK47 zero; http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/sightingin.html
AR15 zero; http://ar15zeroing.com/)

Even you AK guys. There's a AK sight tool that can get your rifle 3moa or much better @ 100 w/ practice and time. That is more than enough, as, believe it or not, a 3moa group @100 is widely considered combat acceptable for M16s and M4s.

(AK47 sight tool; http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/49630-6.html )



*Learn your rifle, inside and out.


If you don't know how to completely disassemble your rifle for complete inspection or cleaning, learn. Get proficient with field stripping and cleaning specifically. If you are in the s**t and don't clean good enough, fast enough, you might get in some trouble. I also suggest learning how your rifle works, researching some common issues that could arise, and learning how to trouble shoot. You can't take your rifle to a smith while being chased by evil nazi zombies... or the batf, same thing.

AR15; http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/maintenance/
AK47; http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/akFieldStripping/ , http://www.guerrillagunsmith.com/akdetailed.htm

*Know your gear
Don't fear looking like a retard to your wife. Dress up in your gear, and practice changing mags, or drawing your ka-bar. Just do it. Learn how you like them situated, and keep them there. Practice it often. You don't want to be bobbling mags around while getting shot at. Having familiarity with where stuff is, and how to get it out is pretty important.

*Know your limitations

I really hope you know how to use your rifle, but also realize exposing yourself, and your position to fire a 450m shot with an AR15 might not be the best idea. Learn the max range of your rifle and what you are comfortable with. Without having to spend 10 minutes on a bench adjusting scopes or steadying on a sandbag. For most people about 250m is pretty much it, maybe a little further if you have a scoped rifle. (and know your rifle, your ammo, your weather conditions and your bullet drop.) Face it, most of us probably have no clue. Hell, most of us probably don't know 200m from 400m anyways. Practice range estimation. Use known distances, like a football field to practice. (Go to one, look from goal line to goal line, some people are truly taken in by how far and difficult a shot that can be.)

*Carry at least 120 rounds of anything.


For me, (Hk g3 pattern) that's 5 mags carried +1 inserted. To me, that's pretty light. I'm a big dude though. Plan on carrying a bunch of survival stuff too, so don't have 1K of .308 strapped on you. You'll get bogged down. No tealing how much other crap you will need to survive aside from ammo. Be sensible. I carry 8 mags+1 at the MAX unless I KNOW I will be in an extended fight with no resupply....(If I knew this I think my chances are pretty nill anyway.)

If you are like me, and think "rifleman" first 120-180rds is nothing to laugh at. If the S has HTF I sincerely hope you don't need 500rds in one firefight, and I also hope you have a base, rally point, cache or depot with more supplies.

*Clean your rifle
I don't care if you can shoot 10,000,000 rounds of wolf through your ar15 (or AK) before it's outstanding reliability becomes an issue. Clean your rifle when you can, and know that your accuracy will diminish a little after a few rounds. Unlike at the range, you can't swab it out every other shot to hit that sub-moa group in the middle of a firefight. Get familiar with your accuracy after your barrel heats up, and gets fouled.

*Learn how to shoot combat style.

This is what i want to stress, if you ignored anything else, at least understand this. Here's to you Mr. I hit dimes at 200m and will be a "sniper" if the SHTF...

You're not going to have a comfortable bench, with a few sandbags in combat. Sorry, your .25moa rifle isn't much better than my 2moa battle rifle if you can only use yours on a steady platform.

I suggest not ever shooting from a bench except to zero. Learn to shoot correctly. Learn to shoot unsupported from prone, crouched, and standing. Practice breath control. Make it all second nature, if not, when the **** starts flying you will forget everything and do whatever feels right.

The importance of practice; making some initially uncomfortable things turn into comfortable muscle memory. Just shooting some paper is not suitable training. Especially not from a bench. Learn to go without bi-pods too.

A decent start is reading some simple FMs or finding a former soldier... (fm 3-22.9, section II works ok...)

I hope this helps someone...

(upd.) Also, while this might sound like "duh" to some or maybe weird to others, learn to shoot with both eyes open, and force yourself to keep them open while shooting. (Wear EYE PRO) Not only does this take all of the fear, and anticipation away from firing, but also allows you to have eyes on target up until the very last moment, and be able to track quick follow ups. (It will take what seems like decades off of your next follow up shot.) You'd be surprised how many people get scared, or anxious blink, fire, and then repeat. Yea, be honest.

-H&C
H&C,
That post rocks bro! It IS what it is! I sure could not have said it better myself! Definitely one in the bank for ya! SemperFi!:thumb:
 

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Banned
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1,388 Posts
Good post. You´re absolutely right about many things. I agree about the benchrest shooting.

Pfff shooting is hard. I'm training prone unsupported and after training every week a year long, I can hit a 5 or 6 inch plate at 100m fairly reliably (shooting AK). Shooting in unsupported standing position is hard. First shot is okay but then fatigue kicks in and you start shaking and stuff.

Am I the only one who finds it hard?

Is signed by Wolfe, who is dedicated but not very talented :-(
I also agree. I only use the bench to sit down when I'm tired or to zero my rifle. other than that me and my friends shoot off hand. Would be nice if there was a place I could do combat shooting or prone around where I live.
 

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You ARE what you IS!
Joined
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5,210 Posts
due to cost of ammo use .22 cal next is very good set up targets from 25yds to 100 yds -4'' clays now run for 200yds now shoot targets standing etc prone it after 50 push ups ! now make it hard it will help you a lot......
Now drop and give me 50! HA! Jk brother!:thumb:
 

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Deo VIndice
Joined
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6,108 Posts
Very informative. This is the stuff I came here for. I shake too after a mag or two when standing upright. Need to work on that and move down to clay size targets.
 

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المتخلف&
Joined
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5,508 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Now drop and give me 50! HA! Jk brother!:thumb:
Actually, push ups do help, a lot. Try rifle ups. That is; repeating the motion of taking a rifle from a rested position to a firing position, over, and over, and over, and over...Helps tweak those muscles that control aiming I guess, but it sure seems to help quicken your snap shooting and target acquisition. I was actually a little sore the first time I tried this, a "pro" recommended it. I've added it to my workouts since. :thumb:
 

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Transplant
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355 Posts
I would only add, that in addition to the great advice you gave is to learn different shooting positions and get familiar with them, and practice with them.

Standing offhand is a great position to become accurate with, but not always the best position for the situation. Standing will expose you in a lot of instances.

In addition to standing unsupported, I work on standing supported (weak and strong side), kneeling unsupported, kneeling supported, sitting, and prone and urban prone. It's also a good idea to spend some time doing these with weak side, as well.

Running gun battles aren't always where you find yourself. In fact, it's downright stupid in a lot of instances. A lot of your fighting will be from cover, and different types of cover and concealment will not always lend itself to your favorite shooting position.

Just add more tools to your box, and you will be better prepared.
 

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11B20 - Status Inactive
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5,036 Posts
Good post. You´re absolutely right about many things. I agree about the benchrest shooting.

Pfff shooting is hard. I'm training prone unsupported and after training every week a year long, I can hit a 5 or 6 inch plate at 100m fairly reliably (shooting AK). Shooting in unsupported standing position is hard. First shot is okay but then fatigue kicks in and you start shaking and stuff.

Am I the only one who finds it hard?

Is signed by Wolfe, who is dedicated but not very talented :-(
Wolf, if you grip with your off-hand around the magazine you can burry that elbow into your just-above-the-hip-area ;) That will take some of the strain off. I am not a big fan of shooting with my arms far apart, I know some of the 'high-speed' trainers out there suggest it but to me it is not as combat effective. Gripping the mag allows you to also pull the weapon into you more helping control fast fire recoil.
 

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Really?
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16,125 Posts
If you start shaking that fast you need to adjust your shooting position. A proper position should be fairly comfortable, but very sturdy and with good support. If you can try to find someone in the military (infantry) to show you. Basically, going from the ground up you want your feet a little more than shoulder width apart and either in line with each other or slightly offset with your weak side foot forward. Then you want your knees slightly bent, stick your butt out a little bit to create a lumbar curve in your spine. Your elbows should be in tight, almost resting on your chest..
Sorry, but that's all wrong. You never want to rely on your muscles to shoot with( bending your knees?), you want use your skeleton, which means locking you knees( your lower body should be a solid base, a turret), relaxing your muscles, rest your elbow onto your hip bone, resting the rifle on the heel of your palm ( no fingers). The just relax and breath. Your breathing should be the only thing moving your rifle( which is why you hold your breath when you shoot).
 

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11B20 - Status Inactive
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5,036 Posts
Sorry, but that's all wrong. You never want to rely on your muscles to shoot with( bending your knees?), you want use your skeleton, which means locking you knees, relaxing your muscles, rest your elbow onto your hip bone, resting the rifle on the heel of your palm ( no fingers). The just relax and breath. Your breathing should be the only thing moving your rifle( which is why you hold your breath when you shoot).
Actually he was right. The way he described is how I was trained. The both toes forward though is if you are wearing body armor though. That keeps the largest amount of protection facing the threat. Putting your butt out keeps your weight forward and counters weapon recoil and keeps you from losing your balance. Bending your knees helps with recoil management, keeps you stable and makes you a smaller target.

The worse thing you can to is lock your knees, anyone who stood in formation during a change of command knows this as someone always locks their knees and ends up passing out as a result.

Standing completely erect like that is not stable for fast fires either. I laugh to myself when I see the YouTube warriors chicken-winging their arms and trying to mag dump with their weight backwards. Using the above to can fire extremely fast, staying on target fairly accurately with pretty any caliber.

One thing to add to this though, pulling your weapon into you with your non-firing hand greatly increases your recoil control. That is why I suggest gripping the magazine or magwell for the ar guys.
 
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