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http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/06/few-thousand-neutral-ground-resistors.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k1qaEIAbV...Lxs/eJxEwdEuzd8/s1600/powergridmitigation.jpg

Interesting article. A bill is before congress that would mandate the implementation of this advancement... Looks like EMP fears might soon be overstated.
Looks like it works for 3 phase, common mode spikes. No so sure that is useful for neighborhood lines, or runs to the house, etc. Caveat, just thinking aloud while looking at the first link.

Protecting those main lines is important, so I do not discount that. Just that it looks designed to protect the grid, but may not protect against locally induced spikes and surges.

Good news.
 

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I'm glad someone else saw this, and commented on it. As much as EMP is brought up on this site, this is acually a solution of some kind being offered by the Government.
 

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I'm glad someone else saw this, and commented on it. As much as EMP is brought up on this site, this is acually a solution of some kind being offered by the Government.
Finally - a plus for government spending.
________________
"FIRE IN THE HOLE"
 

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I am surprise this hasn't been thought of before.

They can even be installed as neutral devises that only connect if an excess of power appears. That will keep them form drawing useful power off the grid and bleeding it to the ground under normal conditions.
 

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Another article that appears to be a HOAX.

The article appears to start based on facts, it does seem that HR 668 has been written. The rest seems a bunch of phooey.

Anyone with basic electronics knowledge want to explain why resistors are not likely to work?
 

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Another article that appears to be a HOAX.

The article appears to start based on facts, it does seem that HR 668 has been written. The rest seems a bunch of phooey.

Anyone with basic electronics knowledge want to explain why resistors are not likely to work?
Make your case why it shoudn't work.
 

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This resistor scheme is an attempt to shunt excessive current to ground during an EMP event.

My concerns here are:
1) Portions of the path to ground will act as an antenna, thereby collecting broadband energy that may propagate along the transmission line. Earth is neutral, but what if the potential between the EMP and the transmission line is greater than the potential between the EMP and the earth? Current will divide proportionally, thus the grounding antenna will feed the transmission line.
2) Likewise, this is a trade between electrical current bleed during normal usage and current shunting during peak (EMP). The node will be at zero if all three windings are perfectly balanced, but I doubt that is the case with all but a very few transformers. So the resistor will most likely be shunting current from the node to ground at all times. How much will this cost us ($$$) in terms of recurring energy loss? Increase the resistance and the recurring energy loss decreases, but this is at odds with its function during EMP, during which time you want zero resistance in that line.
3) Current carrying capability of the resistor.
4) Conductivity of the earth at each grounding point.

I'm skeptical. Better to insulate the transmission lines, sleeve them in steel pipe, and bury them. Pay once, cry once....
 

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This resistor scheme is an attempt to shunt excessive current to ground during an EMP event.

My concerns here are:
1) Portions of the path to ground will act as an antenna, thereby collecting broadband energy that may propagate along the transmission line. Earth is neutral, but what if the potential between the EMP and the transmission line is greater than the potential between the EMP and the earth? Current will divide proportionally, thus the grounding antenna will feed the transmission line.
2) Likewise, this is a trade between electrical current bleed during normal usage and current shunting during peak (EMP). The node will be at zero if all three windings are perfectly balanced, but I doubt that is the case with all but a very few transformers. So the resistor will most likely be shunting current from the node to ground at all times. How much will this cost us ($$$) in terms of recurring energy loss? Increase the resistance and the recurring energy loss decreases, but this is at odds with its function during EMP, during which time you want zero resistance in that line.
3) Current carrying capability of the resistor.
4) Conductivity of the earth at each grounding point.

I'm skeptical. Better to insulate the transmission lines, sleeve them in steel pipe, and bury them. Pay once, cry once....
Goods points there. All of them. On point one, I suspect that transmission engineers are aware of this phenomenon.
 

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Green Eggs and Spam
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...the resistor will most likely be shunting current from the node to ground at all times. How much will this cost us ($$$) in terms of recurring energy loss? Increase the resistance and the recurring energy loss decreases, but this is at odds with its function during EMP, during which time you want zero resistance in that line.
A resistor really is not an ideal device for this. Look at the HUGE insulators that are used to suspend the transmission lines. In reality, the resistance of normal air might be enough to duplicate what this article is attempting to convey as an EMP solution. The one thing missing would be clean contact points between the line and ground.

3) Current carrying capability of the resistor.
It doesn't do much good if the EMP burns out both the resistor and the grid transformer.

4) Conductivity of the earth at each grounding point.
Again, this goes along with the above, if the ground resistance is too high between points, then all that time and money was spent for nothing, the transformer is still going to be turned into charcoal.

I'm skeptical. Better to insulate the transmission lines, sleeve them in steel pipe, and bury them. Pay once, cry once....
I'm not an grid electrician, so sometimes what I know to be true about electrical stuff gets a little muddy in my mind when I try to make the mental conversion. However, the laws of physics and chemistry relating to electricity work the same no matter where one is on the planet.

It is nice to see others on this forum that are willing to debunk myths that people may make a life or death decision based upon their information.Accurate information made available to the members here will let everyone have the knowledge to make the best choice.
 

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Green Eggs and Spam
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Make your case why it shoudn't work.
Why should I do all the work?

Besides, I am curious about the answers of those that might reply!

To anyone still reading this thread, it was always my plan to provide feedback to everyone that answered the question; to further attempt to make a positive contribution to the thread. I did that with my previous reply.

Thanks SB members!
 

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Why should I do all the work?
Besides, I am curious about the answers of those that might reply!

To anyone still reading this thread, it was always my plan to provide feedback to everyone that answered the question; to further attempt to make a positive contribution to the thread. I did that with my previous reply.

Thanks SB members!

You should do the work because you are the one making the ridiculous claim of hoax on a working commercial product. Sheesh, if you are going to call hoax, at least make it about something really suspicious. In your own words, you don't understand basic electricity man. At this point, I think we can generally see where the problem is with your hoax.
 

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My concerns here are:
1) Portions of the path to ground will act as an antenna, thereby collecting broadband energy that may propagate along the transmission line. Earth is neutral, but what if the potential between the EMP and the transmission line is greater than the potential between the EMP and the earth? Current will divide proportionally, thus the grounding antenna will feed the transmission line.
Earth is not neutral, but is used merely as a reference point. The potential difference of the EMP to Earth or EMP to the transmission lines do not matter. Current will flow from highest to lowest potential. If there is a resistor in the path it will limit the amount of current.

The problem I see is that whatever current is being shunted to ground has already been carried through the transformer to the neutral tap (wye configuration)

2) Likewise, this is a trade between electrical current bleed during normal usage and current shunting during peak (EMP). The node will be at zero if all three windings are perfectly balanced, but I doubt that is the case with all but a very few transformers. So the resistor will most likely be shunting current from the node to ground at all times. How much will this cost us ($$$) in terms of recurring energy loss? Increase the resistance and the recurring energy loss decreases, but this is at odds with its function during EMP, during which time you want zero resistance in that line.
Not an issue. Many transformers are grounded at this very moment via a resistive ground. It's a common, widely used setup.

3) Current carrying capability of the resistor.
I think wattage would be a better term.
An open air cooled resistor with large heat sinks could dissipate quite a bit of heat. Electrically generated heat = I^2 * R, the current would be the major factor, but sizing the resistance value based on expected scenarios would reduce the chance of overheating (maybe at a cost of reduced protection though).
4) Conductivity of the earth at each grounding point.
Always a factor. The electrical grids of every geographic location have to factor this in when designing systems anyway. This shouldn't cause much more work.

I'm skeptical. Better to insulate the transmission lines, sleeve them in steel pipe, and bury them. Pay once, cry once....
Even plumbing can have voltage induced via an EMP. I'm not sure this would be effective.
 

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Goods points there. All of them. On point one, I suspect that transmission engineers are aware of this phenomenon.
In the northern parts of Canada,they have systems in place for the increased voltage that work.The same problems that make the Northerner Lights cause,these lines deal with the affect of EMP regularly,and function fine,so yes,the engineers have dealt with this problem for years.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/17/solar-flare-2011-northern_n_824516.html

Since the massive blackout of 1973,systems have been put in place to harden the transmission lines.

Thanks,Bob
 

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A resistor really is not an ideal device for this. Look at the HUGE insulators that are used to suspend the transmission lines. In reality, the resistance of normal air might be enough to duplicate what this article is attempting to convey as an EMP solution. The one thing missing would be clean contact points between the line and ground.
Not a bad idea.

As for the resistors, the link posted by the OP showed a pretty elaborate physical implementation. I think they took the high voltage (100KV IIRC) into consideration. That said, the real issue is leakage from the node to ground vs. shunting current induced by the EMP.


It doesn't do much good if the EMP burns out both the resistor and the grid transformer.
Yeah. I think that's what the "designers" are trying to prevent with the shunt resistor.



Again, this goes along with the above, if the ground resistance is too high between points, then all that time and money was spent for nothing, the transformer is still going to be turned into charcoal.
We're in agreement. Not sure about the charcoal, though. Maybe slag? :)



I'm not an grid electrician, so sometimes what I know to be true about electrical stuff gets a little muddy in my mind when I try to make the mental conversion. However, the laws of physics and chemistry relating to electricity work the same no matter where one is on the planet.
I'm not a grid electrician either, not that it makes much of a difference. Electrical laws are electrical laws. Nevertheless, the points behind the notion of burying the conductors are:
1) The metal pipe is a shield
2) The shield is buried in earth (ground), therefore maximum current transfer away from the shield in an EMP event.

Make sence?

It is nice to see others on this forum that are willing to debunk myths that people may make a life or death decision based upon their information.Accurate information made available to the members here will let everyone have the knowledge to make the best choice.
I don't see how we as taxpayers have much say in this at all. Someone will "gift" a congresscritter who'll in turn push the bill to fund this monstrosity without proper peer review and testing. This will be just as stupid as ethanol supplements to our gasoline.
 

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Not a bad idea.

As for the resistors, the link posted by the OP showed a pretty elaborate physical implementation. I think they took the high voltage (100KV IIRC) into consideration. That said, the real issue is leakage from the node to ground vs. shunting current induced by the EMP.



Yeah. I think that's what the "designers" are trying to prevent with the shunt resistor.




We're in agreement. Not sure about the charcoal, though. Maybe slag? :)




I'm not a grid electrician either, not that it makes much of a difference. Electrical laws are electrical laws. Nevertheless, the points behind the notion of burying the conductors are:
1) The metal pipe is a shield
2) The shield is buried in earth (ground), therefore maximum current transfer away from the shield in an EMP event.

Make sence?


I don't see how we as taxpayers have much say in this at all. Someone will "gift" a congresscritter who'll in turn push the bill to fund this monstrosity without proper peer review and testing. This will be just as stupid as ethanol supplements to our gasoline.
Not to mention the fact that we have warning systems for solar activity,everyone in the space station survived the radiation due to an early warning.
 

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Earth is not neutral, but is used merely as a reference point. The potential difference of the EMP to Earth or EMP to the transmission lines do not matter. Current will flow from highest to lowest potential. If there is a resistor in the path it will limit the amount of current.

The problem I see is that whatever current is being shunted to ground has already been carried through the transformer to the neutral tap (wye configuration)
Reread my point again. You're restating what I wrote. And yes, in this case earth is neutral by reference.

Not an issue. Many transformers are grounded at this very moment via a resistive ground. It's a common, widely used setup.
In that relatively static state, high resistance can be used to restrict current leakage from the node. Note that the opposite requirement appears when large amounts of current due to EMP appear at the node.

I think wattage would be a better term.
An open air cooled resistor with large heat sinks could dissipate quite a bit of heat. Electrically generated heat = I^2 * R, the current would be the major factor, but sizing the resistance value based on expected scenarios would reduce the chance of overheating (maybe at a cost of reduced protection though).
Wattage (power) is a better term indeed. But current induced by EMP intersecting the transmission line vs current bleed to ground when the line is energized during normal operation is the tradeoff here. In this case, it would be P = E^2 / R.

Furthermore, if the resistor is wire wound (which it probably will be), we need to also examine the inductive reactance of that resistor since the resistor will oppose current flow to ground at the higher frequencies. X(L) = 2 * pi * f * L for the range of frequencies from, say, 1KHz to 900GHz.

I believe the transmission folks call this a monowinding current transformer.

Always a factor. The electrical grids of every geographic location have to factor this in when designing systems anyway. This shouldn't cause much more work.
No arguement here. It was listed because it's a consideration.

Even plumbing can have voltage induced via an EMP. I'm not sure this would be effective.
Induce all the voltage you want, but remember the shield is encased in earth, which will wick the resulting current away from shield (and more importantly, the transmission line).

Also, the earth itself has a different dielectric coefficient, and will attenuate the EMP at a greater rate than atmosphere. Win-win.
 

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In the northern parts of Canada,they have systems in place for the increased voltage that work.The same problems that make the Northerner Lights cause,these lines deal with the affect of EMP regularly,and function fine,so yes,the engineers have dealt with this problem for years.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/17/solar-flare-2011-northern_n_824516.html

Since the massive blackout of 1973,systems have been put in place to harden the transmission lines.

Thanks,Bob
They have a relatively static situation. I doubt their grid is any better protected than ours in the event of an EMP.
 

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Green Eggs and Spam
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I think wattage would be a better term.
An open air cooled resistor with large heat sinks could dissipate...
Well, here we disagree!!!

And, it's funny, because I think you will understand my point in the next few sentences.

An engineer walked up to me an asked, "Do you know why a nuclear explosion only lasts ???? (really SHORT) seconds?"

"It can't blow itself apart any slower!"

So, your concept of wattage on line, in this case applies more to a fast blow fuse instead of the modern circuit breaker.

As I understand, it ain't about Watts, but instead instantaneous current for a very brief moment in time. It is all about the Ice Man.
 
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