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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
if we get a SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, OMGWTFBBQ or otherwise zombified situation, major population centers will be gone. survivors of those will starve to death in a few weeks. there simply isn't enough wildlife for everybody to eat.

but I do believe that the small towns in between will survive. a few thousand here, a few 10,000's there. it will become readily apparent very quickly that it's in their best interests to band together, support each other, protect their food and water supply, keep outsiders out.

how long will they keep their civility with their neighbors? what happens when one is more prosperous than the other? what happens when one is dying while the other is thriving?

despite the wars our civilizations have had in this past century, this has still been the most peaceful time in human history. those few horrific slaughterfests with modern weapons we can count on one hand, taught us the value of peace, and still we stop only under the threat of total annihilation.

before that it was war after war after war. Europeans killed each other with black powder and steel blades. Indians killed each other with stone tomahawks and arrows. Central Americans killed each other with obsidan choppers, knives and rocks. Asians killed each other with spears, arrows and iron blades. Africans killed each other with spears and clubs. and we still have all those old habits.

before that, in the ancient world, you find only more slaughter. Visigoths, Vandals, Ostrogoths, Persians, Assyrians, the Egyptians conducted wars beyond their dunes every year as a matter of schedule, and the mighty Roman Empire counted almost all the weath they had in spoils of war, numbers of slaves, and tributes from vassal states. similarly did the Muslims, Mongols and Vikings.

in the ancient world, few people ever traveled more than 5 miles from their place of birth in their entire lifetime. not simply because of economics but because it was dangerous. robbers infested the highways. it was unheard of to have a town without walls, there were so many raids. castles had high stone walls that enclosed a large area with stores of food for the citizenry to flee to in the event of such raids; this was not specific to the Europeans we know, everyone with a castle did that from Britain to Japan. in China there were bands of robbers that sometimes exceeded 10,000.

we all were taught in grade school that our Latin alphabet came from the Phoenecian alpha-beta, which was spread with their trading ships in the Mediterranean. what they didn't teach you was how such trade was conducted.

the ship would pull up to dock and people would run and hide. the sailors would put their wares on the dock and hide in the ship. people would come out, examine the goods, leave money, then hide again. sailors come out and either adjust what they had on the dock for re-negotiation or take the money and leave.

why? because one might rob and kill the other. there was no trust.

look, people lived these examples for thousands and thousands of years, our entire human history up until this last century. they knew nothing else, never even heard of a peace like this. it had never existed.

how long before things devolve to that? years? decades? but it will eventually.
 

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I disagree with OP. 1 of 2 things will happen in urban environments, generally speaking. There will be a slow decline which will lead to a slow migration where those city dwellers will slowly begin to migrate outwards, or a rapid decline in which case those city dwellers will have a mass exodus, leaving behind a good amount of food and water.

Cities are full of food and water, so either the people will slowly but surely consume that or they will run for the hills and the ones left behind will consume it still but at a much slower pace. There are plenty of tradesmen in and around metro areas that get devise a plan to garner enough power to keep those well stocked costco, sams club and walmart freezers running. I live in a suburban area and there is a lake across the street stocked with fish and plenty of water I can make drinkable. A fresh water stream behind my neighborhood. On the other side of that is a cattle farm. So, stay or go doesnt make much of a difference to us just depends on the situation and the timing.

The ones that leave and head to the rural areas are going to create the problems IMO most dont have the bushcraft skills to survive hunt fish start a fire. Those are the ones that will be struggling to survive and when the stumble onto a rural property in survival mode.....Yea that can turn out real bad in a lot of ways. City dwellers like movies and tv shows that depict dystopian civilizations and situations. They are gonna get ballsy roaming the countryside and come up with all kinds of plans/methods etc. simply based off what they watched on tv.

Those city folks will gradually adapt to the changing conditions as food and water supplies dwindle. They will be use to going longer periods without them. They know where to go to get them. The rural folks most of which travel to the cities for supplies with be the ones in for the shock once they can no longer do so, even more so when the city folks start to come their way.

City folks arent as dumb as most think they are, they can resourceful buggers. Remember those are the ones that want to go green and eat bugs etc.

They love fantasy worlds and they movies that depict survival and dystopian life which contain enough useful information for them to survive for a good while.

Pros and cons.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
a few city folks have enough food to last 2 weeks. everyone else... doesn't. when their 2 weeks of food is gone, they join "everyone else", who ran out of food in the first 3 days and already ate all the squirrels by now. there is no food.

there aren't any trucks to restock that freezer in walmart even if it did have electricity.

I think a typical grocery store has 2-3 days of food. but not when everyone in town mobs it. gone the first day. yeah a city is chock full of items people want like soap, tools, etc but the food will be gone. foodless. you can't eat tools.

they are going to go to the countryside looking for food, and that's really a losing proposition. rural folks are going to shoot them on sight because they don't want their food eaten, don't want their stuff stolen, don't want outsiders. or all the food is gone anyway, not enough deer to support this many people. or they run into fallout/germs/zombies, the same thing that killed everyone in the first place
 

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Not everyone in a city lives in an overcrowded apartment building with a few days of food. Maybe NY or Chicago, but most cities have lots of single family homes, and multi-family housing is generally kept out of the neighborhoods.

So when you say "city" do you mean a normal American city like the vast amount the US has, or do you mean the overcrowded urban subset of Apartment dwellers? because if it's the former, I think you are way off base.
 

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The thing about most major population centers is there location, resources, capacity for production, distribution, trade routes, and most are near water sources. They were built there for those benefits.

Those who don’t have the means, security, or capabilities to live and survive in rural areas will actually migrate to city centers. If any government remains or tries to reestablish, it will be in built up areas.

It really depends on what kind of “S” hits the fan, but I do believe smaller communities, once secure, will start to band together for mutual support, trade, alliances, expanding access to resources, etc.

America was founded on self-governance rooted in a faith-based ideology. Do we have feral humans (gangs, criminals, murderers, rapists), will starvation and fear make monsters out of suburban mothers? Yes, for a while, but as smaller communities reestablish law and order, that will expand and we will quickly evolve back into something similar to the western expansion towns. Will there be conflict, disputes, skirmishes? Sure, that continues to happen all over the world and we will get our own flavor here if there’s a disruption in the rule of law. If the lights went out tomorrow things would get ugly over the next 12-18 months. Manmade resources would dry up or get hoarded by some communities and the vast majority of Americans would likely succumb to starvation, dysentery related diseases, environmental exposure, etc. By year two or three, I think communities would start rebounding, establishing trade, and expanding production of essentials, mostly energy production. Within 5-6 six years, we would have a loose federation of states and state-type governments and urban areas would start to repopulate. That all assumes the rest of the world is suffering the same SHTF and we’re not being invaded.

I’m optimistic that the American spirit for many doesn’t just disappear in the face of adversity. Once Maslow’s initial layer in the hierarchy of needs becomes priority, all the other crap will disappear (and those who still think the “tip of needs” is their cross to die on, they will die). Mankind is pretty resilient and while it took only 150 years to go from single-shot flintlocks to nukes starting with really no infrastructure and many technologies not even dreamed of, I think our recovery from a complete reset would only be a decade or two.

ROCK6
 

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SHTF in Argentina, Lebanon, Afghanistan and Venezuela but people survive some even thrive (few and far between the latter) so no mass die off.

TEOTWAWKI all bets are off no matter how prepared you think you are, it only takes a well placed bullet or rock and it's all over.

(There was a UK show Survivors back in the 70's highlighted a woman with a rifle picking off people working the land)

Best you can do is prepare based of real life scenarios and a lil prayer never hurt anyone.
 

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They dont need the food in their freezers to eat theyll go get it and any of the plethor a of stores that have it. there are plenty of stores and dist. centers most have emergency generators and if not power can be made. if power can be made at that location they can take the supplies to a different on location where power can be made.
All food doesnt need to be frozen, on can survive without frozen food. Grocery stores have way more that 2-3 days word of food lol. you need ot open your eyes. next time your there. I just bought a box of mountain house meals at walmart that says 3 days I bet I could stretch that to 5 and they had 20 or so boxes. Next to that they had 3day survival kit with water and lifeboat bars and there were about 10 of those. A quick trip over to the canned food isles there is plenty of canned food from fruits and veggies to potted meats to chef boyardee. I also bout about 2 weeks worth of tuna packets, we love those things so convenient. No fridge necessary again. IDK what city stores or walmarts you shop at but they also have a freezer full different food along with (on most days a few freezer trucks delivering/full of food. parked outback.

Heck I bet you could survive greater than 30 days off of the food ina CVS let alone a walmart. Not even gonna go into costco. There was enough A5 wagyu steaks in there yesterday to eat really good for prolly 2 months. I can freeze it at home, cure it or dehydrate it

You did make an interesting point about being full of things people want like soap tools if people want them now wouldnt they want them after SHTF? Wouldnt they make good items to barter for food if you cant find any?

Yes they will eventually go to the rural places. You are seriously underestimating the will to survive if you think a rural family is gonna go to war with a 20-30 marauders. or if said marauders are just gonna willy nilly walk up to said rural property in broad daylight trying to steal food. These people ARE NOT STUPID. I know more rural people that cant protect their property now let alone and a large group of angry hungry people come through. I know a few that have the means to do so and that is dependent on family and community helping.

There are also plenty of other edible animals other than dear and there is plenty to go around for quite a while.

Exposure can/will kill you jsut as easily as germs, Zombies? watch TV much? fallout? that follows the wind not people.

Last year we were snowed in for a week no power no phones, no water and no one mobbed anything only like 2 old people died from exposure. Thats out of 50k+ people everyone else did just fine. I do think another week or so things would have been different



What they will go get loot steal excessive amounts of is electronics tools clothes, new iphones and airpods.

In desperation domestic animals are edible. I think it would take a long time to get to that point there are plenty of rabbits and squirrels, turtle soup is good, rattle snakes are good. All can be canned cured frozen, as well.

Also there is a solar energy boom that has everyone getting solar panels and batteries to keep their homes running are the zombies gonna blot out the sun too?

Finally everyone in town isn't going to mob all the stores in 1 day. lol people have food at home most can last a week or more, maybe not eating steak potatoes and 4 course dinners. From my experience people will go get what they need food wise when they think they need it or are getting low. Most will think its short term so they wont be trying to stock up. just get what they need for the next few days.

you really need to get out of the box and pay attention to your surroundings.
 

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Not everyone in a city lives in an overcrowded apartment building with a few days of food. Maybe NY or Chicago, but most cities have lots of single family homes, and multi-family housing is generally kept out of the neighborhoods.

So when you say "city" do you mean a normal American city like the vast amount the US has, or do you mean the overcrowded urban subset of Apartment dwellers? because if it's the former, I think you are way off base.
Even in the latter. Take a place like NYC. Most recent count puts them close to 9 million people. If people die quickly and even only 1% survive, then you still have close to 100,000 people with very close access to the resources left behind by 9 million people. That is a lot of stuff to choose from. NYC has approx 50,000 gun permit holders and NYPD estimates there are over a million illegal guns in the city. The NYPD has over 35,000 officers and most of them have at least one firearm. They also also stock millions of rounds of ammo, not counting any of the ammo in civilians hands throughout the city. If most of the gang population dies off quickly, think of the access to the crazy amount of weapons and ammo they would have. That is a lot to choose from if 99% of the population dies. Then think of all the leftover gas in buses and cabs and private vehicles. Think of the access to all the horses in the city which the city still has approx 50,000-100,000 floating in and around the outskirts of the city. Think of all the canned goods (not to mention access to the supplies of 25,000 restaurants which would become completely open and free) and clothing and blankets and access to purified water in bottles, or access to tens of thousands of small and large grocery stores, corner shops, bodegas, anything that sells food or water. Think of all the access to what is probably the largest center of medical supplies in the country. If New York City’s population was completely wiped out, it would be the best place on the planet to go and retrieve supplies but it would never be wiped out completely for the exact same reason and if even only a small fraction of the city survived, it would still probably be one of the most formidable places in the country.
 

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At the end of the day the will to survive is whats gonna keep people alive. Remember all those old folks saying if theres will theres a way? ever stop and say maybe they were onto something? People are resilient instinct is instinct. Just because you move people to the city and feed them social media doesn't mean those instincts are gone. People are still animals
 

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you left out the chief reason behind warring in Europe - one ethnic tribe totally believing it was their right to take property from another undeserving tribe >>> it's worldwide among humans - and it still exists today from African banana republics to nuke powers of Russia and China ....

It's been an absolute miracle of miracles that a US race war hasn't erupted - and no serious urban brawling since the 1960s >>> won't be that lucky under the type of SHTF you are envisioning - certain parts of the country where the ethnic divide is the blonde Danes from the blond Norwegians, your vision will hold >>>> other parts of the country the divide will be overnite and will be the most uncivilized ethnic warring since the beginning of mankind ....
 

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It's been an absolute miracle of miracles that a US race war hasn't erupted - and no serious urban brawling since the 1960s >>> won't be that lucky under the type of SHTF you are envisioning - certain parts of the country where the ethnic divide is the blonde Danes from the blond Norwegians, your vision will hold >>>> other parts of the country the divide will be overnite and will be the most uncivilized ethnic warring since the beginning of mankind ....
While I'm not discounting a certain amount of ethnical violence if there was a complete breakdown, but maybe I'm just too naïve, as I think the divide is more manufactured than deep-rooted, and more propagandized than reality. Once you get away from certain areas that are extremely homogenous with high crime, SHTF will likely erase much of that petty, unproductive, manufactured, and stupid racial conflict.

I've seen family, tribal, and ethnic hatred overseas. We don't have anything close to that degree and much of it is marketed for political reasons. Remove the politics and marketing, add some SHTF, and that crap will only occur in small pockets dominated by criminals.

ROCK6
 

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While I'm not discounting a certain amount of ethnical violence if there was a complete breakdown, but maybe I'm just too naïve, as I think the divide is more manufactured than deep-rooted, and more propagandized than reality. Once you get away from certain areas that are extremely homogenous with high crime, SHTF will likely erase much of that petty, unproductive, manufactured, and stupid racial conflict.

I've seen family, tribal, and ethnic hatred overseas. We don't have anything close to that degree and much of it is marketed for political reasons. Remove the politics and marketing, add some SHTF, and that crap will only occur in small pockets dominated by criminals.

ROCK6
you think the black political leaders would be any more peacemakers than they have been or are currently? - had a black sitting prez that came just short of handing out signed copies of his Rioting & Looting for Dummies - scores of current black congresspeople preaching taking IT to the street for justice >>>

get it fired up and it'll burn just fine - just hasn't been the correct tinder so far >>> emptying and not re-supplying the lower rung ghetto store chains could just be it .....
 

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Theres an old [Army prob] military saying about how quickly sugar can turn to sheet…
It will be sheet 5 seconds after people realize the lights arent coming back on…
You can debate possible event scenarios all day..Urban/rural, who survives whatever event is first, etc…But some things are immutable…
A guard will always have to be posted, someone ALWAYS must be awake at night-and outside in a fortified position preferably-, everyone must be armed at all times-on your person, not just in a corner-You cannot allow just anyone onto your property-no matter who they are or how long you have known them-you should have a checklist of daily chores/tasks…Post-SHTF you cannot afford to forget/get tired and put off critical tasks..filter/draw water, feed/tend to livestock, walk your perimeter/check your property…
It’s ON 24 hrs a day once it starts…
 

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They dont need the food in their freezers to eat theyll go get it and any of the plethor a of stores that have it. there are plenty of stores and dist. centers most have emergency generators and if not power can be made. if power can be made at that location they can take the supplies to a different on location where power can be made.
All food doesnt need to be frozen, on can survive without frozen food.

Grocery stores have way more that 2-3 days word of food lol.
Not for the whole population they don't.

And my local grocery store is owned by a family that includes an ex-sheriff, a judge, and an FFL dealer who enjoys certain weapons with extra holes; so come SHTF, if you try to steal their food....you will not succeed.

They can't even stock enough feaking water or TP for one little pandemic weekend scare.

LOL my fanny.

Seriously...some people seem to be immune to reality.:rolleyes:
 
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