[medic7.62]

Ok ive already decided on 22LR and 12 gauge(BUCK,SLUGS,#4SHOT) No debate on the viability of these 2 for survival purposes/commonality/availability

can't decide between

Long Range, Larger Game-308 vs 30-06
Having trouble deciding between these 2

308/7.62 NATO round
+ NATO round
+ Civilian Hunting round
+Proven military record
+many semi-auto battle rifles use this
- supplies may dry up if shtf due to military/LEO demand
- they might try and take your ammo because they can use it

30-06
+Very common civilian hunting round
+Easy to find, mom and pop stores, homes etc...
+Proven military record
-bigger than 308/heavier
-not many available semi auto-battle rifles fire this
+prob less likely to get confiscated than 7.62 NATO/308



Intermediate range hunting/defense

223/5.56 NATO
+widely used by Mil/LEO
-supplies may dry up shtf
-might try and take ammo/firearm because they can use it
+you could use their ammo/mags
-doubt if they will let you if shtf
+accurate
-not as much punch as 7.62x39 or 30-30
?ease of reloading


7.62x39
+more punch than 223
-less accurate
+more affordable than 223
-less common(in USA, not worldwide)
-russian ammo could be banned
+many reliable affordable semi-auto rifles w proven military track records in this caliber
?ease of reloading

30-30
+less conspicious
-Lever action vs semi-auto
+Very Common civilian hunting round
+up there in power w/ 7.62x39
-I don't know much more about this cartridge in terms of affordability ease of reloading etc...

5.45x39
+very cheap and affordable(for now)
-russian round
-availability if shtf



I don't mean to beat a dead horse, I just can't make up my mind
I am looking for something that is dual purpose for hunting, defense
but is common enough for availability after shtf. ease of reloading is a plus too. trying to narrow it down to a longer range and intermediate range choice. should I go with the more civilian calibers or the NATO ones?

please give me advice im open to suggestions

I wont even attempt to go into pistol rounds yet on this thread.

 

[jabbagrunt]

medic looks like you have a pretty good start on research there. i would start off by deciding how much you have to spend because ammo mags etc. is going to cost you personally i started years ago cheap what i could afford sks,ak then upgraded as i could aford to propably (man i'm getting tired getting old not as fun as i thought it would be) good luck if i can help with some specific ? let me know semper fi

 

[Texas Patriot]

I decided on m43 Soviet Intermediate round 7.62 x39. AK and SKS. Ammo is/ was cheap and I stockpiled like there was no tomorrow. I have dispersed caches off site so confiscation is a non issue. An old saying: With a rock ,I can get a knife. With a knife,I can get a pistol. With a pistol, I can get a rifle. With a rifle, I can get whatever I need. Quality ammo. QUANTITY ammo. Quality weapons and a few spare parts and magazines.Hunting? M43,ballistically equivalent to the 30-30.Suppliment with traps,snares,bow and arrows and black powder guns. TP

 

[Blackrock]

Assumeing you are starting from ground zero here is the way i would go and why.

1: .22lr--- Ruger 10/22: Scope it, folding stock and a good collection of proven 25rd mags. Ammo is still the cheapest, easy to carry and useful.

2: 12ga--- Mossberg 500 series: Synthetic stocks with both a rifle site 20" and 28" barrel with screw in choke. Common ammo in a proven platform.

3:.308 vs .30-06: Easy call for me with the .308. Remington 700 or Savage/Stevens with GOOD scope and synthetic stock. Easy to get ammo and enough power for North American game with out excessive recoil/muzzle blast.

4: This is where it gets intresting. Go with either the .223 or the 7.62X39 depending on several factors. The 7.62X39 is not an innaccurate round, it the guns that it is chambered for. In the Finnish Valmet it is as accurate as just about any semi-auto .223. But the Valmet is a very uncommon gun and major $$$. Thing is though the AK series are accurate enough for combat usage and less $$$ than the AR type.If you are not as concerned about money the AR-15 platform is not a bad way to go. Mags are available and the .223 is very easy to reload as is surplus type ammo though a little more $$$ than the 7.62X39. If I was starting from ground zero I would go for the 7.62X39 and here is why.
7.62X39 is a well proven ctg in combat. Guns are a little less $$$ so for the same money you could buy several guns. I would grab an AK series and plenty of 30rd mags. I would also pick-up an SKS and scope it. Reason for the SKS is that it would draw alot less attention than the AR or AK and still be acceptable for combat while still providing a decent hunting rifle with the scope.
If you decide on the AR-15 then scope it and pick-up a .22lr conversion kit from Ceiner. Then you have a combat weapon that is easily converted to .22lr if you happen into some small game.
This is the way I would go.

 

[hunterwolf]

Another thing to keep in mind is the weight! I have all 22lr and 223..It will stop anything plus law enforcement military all have plenty to scrounge from.

 

[NCDoberman]

I love the .308 for long range, love it. I also own a rifle that fires .06 though.

One thing I would consider if were you and I was choosing between the two is that 30.06 will take down pretty much any game on North America, .308 not so much. .308 can probably drop moose and brown bear with a very well placed shot under ideal conditions but it's probably going to take a while to drop even then. Most big game hunters use .338 or .375 for grizzly/brown bear. When it's got teeth and claws you want to be sure.

So with what you have laid out above I'd say take the 30.06 for long range since you will have either the 5.56 or 7.62x39 for defense and two legged game.

just my .02

 

[sailinghudson25]

First off, lets change your purpose names. You want a hunting rifle caliber and a self defense rifle caliber.

Hunting: What is the biggest game you have in your area. How about dangerous game issues? .308 is great for deer and elk. .30-06 has a bit more power. .30-06 is more common of a caliber. You will find .30-06 in more odd ball places. If someone has a hunting rifle under their bed for 20 years with ammo, it is more likely to be .30-06. Don't rule out other calibers too. .270 and .243 are very capable and popular for deer. For the typical pratice of a hunter, .243 is very accurate due to low recoil. Keep in mind, during SHTF many folks will be hunting or living in the woods. The deer will be extremely cautious and very noctural. During daylight, the deer will be in some thick nasty brush sleeping or in the swamps. Last place they'll be is in open fields.

Defense: A self defense situation will not occur at 300 yards. SHTF and defense is criminal based situations. They will come in realtively close before engaging, seeing if it worth the bother. IT will likely occur at 100 yards or less. An affordable round allows more practice. IT takes much much more practice to be good at shooting multiple targets quickly while standing or prone. Shots on moving target. You shooting while moving. Now try shoot multiple moving targets while moving yourself. Gonna be alot of cases of ammo. .223 has very low recoil, which can quicken follow-up shots. The 7.62x39 has more power and is affordable. .308 has great power along with the most recoil, unless your well off you're basically forced to reload with a .308. 5.45x39 is good, but plan on seriously buying ammo soon. The price is catching up to 7.62x39. If cost is your major factor, forget the rifle cost, look at ammo costs.

My 4 calibers are 20 gauge shotgun, 22lr rifle, .30-30 for hunting, 7.62x39 in a SKS. .30-30 and 7.62x39 are very similar, but do the job for me. I probably should have went with a .30-06 instead of the .30-30. NY is mainly wooded, so long range isn't really needed.

 

[CPL_BS_88]

.308 is really just a short 30-06 if you think about it and around here is every bit as common so i say for overall advantage gains go with the .308.

I think its wise to have options, you never know the cards you'll be dealt so having weapons that can fire the avail. ammo is wise but also expinsive.

I love the 7.62x39 but 5.56 beats it in mor catagories han it looses so my pick is 5.56. Also wolf 5.56 is not much more, if at all, than wolf 7.62x39...its good for practice but i wouldent rely on it. IMO the only thing the x39 excells in is barrier penetration.

5.45 is an awsome round and is quickly becomming my fav but i fear that unless ou have money to stock pile thousands, it may be better to go with whats common...again were back to 5.56.

30-30 has very similar balistics to that of the 7.62x39. if your worried about image then just dress up a SKS to look as non-military as possible.

I'd go with NATO, shtf and feeding the troops is whats going to be priority.


O and i'd also like to note that i have a friend that hunts hogs with his SKS, he said that the wolf HP tears 'em up too much so he just uses FMJ and they bleed out really quick. I'd need to see some in depth tests of wolf rounds before i rely on it but its all i have in 7.63x39 so i guess it'll have to do.

 

[Ls1]

7.62x39 does not have the same power as .30-30 in factory loads.

How does a 124 grain bullet at 2300 FPS equate to a 150 grain bullets moving at 2350 or170 grain bullet moving at 2100 fps. Simple, It's doesn't. The only round out of the x39 that does compare in factory loading is the wolf loaded with a 154 grain bullet, but it moves at 2100 fps, and isn't the greatest bullet (still better for hunting than fmj.) A .30-30 150 grain facotry loading moves closer to 2400 fps. Honestly, for hunting, I feel the the .30-30 is a better loading. Soft points made by American companies are ussually $14 here, and are reloadable. Very cheap for an American hunting caliber, and easy to reload for.

As far as hunting with a defensive weapon, I would much prefer 7.62x39 over 5.56 in large game areas. On the other hand, 5.56 might be better for not destorying small game. In the end my plan is not to depend on supply from anywhere else but family and friends. I also live in a short range state with lots of cover, so 5.56 looses it accuracy edge and...fails at penetration. The cost of x39 firearms was a plus for me as well. In the end, this is what I chose.


I'm having the .30-06 vrs .308 debate myself. I don't trust that Nato calibers will be overly available nessarily, and right now, in hunting loads, .308 is more expensive. Recoil on .30-06 isn't that much different, and if you live in an area with Moose, Bear, etc I think that 180 -220 grain 06' loading starts to look good. Also, in my area, 06 is cheaper...and more avilable. Still, .308's are a shoter faster action in a bolt rifle, and a tiny bit lighter. More than enough in a place like Rural NY where I live. Either are good options. It's win-win whatever you decide. Don't forget about 7.62x54r as an option, a very accurate round as well. It has both bolt and semi auto models...

 

[Jerry D Young]

M1A in .308 - Primary defense

H&R/NEF .30-'06 - hunting (if you're way north with moose, elk, brown/grizzley bears, a .375 H&H might be a better choice in a Remington 700 bolt action.

Don't think you really need intermediate if you have semi-auto .308 for defense and a .30-'06 for hunting as it has light loads that work well for medium game and you've already decided on .22 for small game.

If you really want a close quarters, last ditch, easy handling intermediate round an AUG or MSAR STG 556 is compact and will take 100-round drums.

If you just want to have an intermediate caliber, the Ruger SSR-556 looks good as it has a piston system.

If you want short range handout gun, then I'd consider the .3o Carbine. Light, short, low recoil, effective to ~200 yards.

 

[CPL_BS_88]

7.62x39 does not have the same power as .30-30 in factory loads.

How does a 124 grain bullet at 2300 FPS equate to a 150 grain bullets moving at 2350 or170 grain bullet moving at 2100 fps. Simple, It's doesn't. The only round out of the x39 that does compare in factory loading is the wolf loaded with a 154 grain bullet, but it moves at 2100 fps, and isn't the greatest bullet (still better for hunting than fmj.) A .30-30 150 grain facotry loading moves closer to 2400 fps. Honestly, for hunting, I feel the the .30-30 is a better loading. Soft points made by American companies are ussually $14 here, and are reloadable. Very cheap for an American hunting caliber, and easy to reload for.

As far as hunting with a defensive weapon, I would much prefer 7.62x39 over 5.56 in large game areas. On the other hand, 5.56 might be better for not destorying small game. In the end my plan is not to depend on supply from anywhere else but family and friends. I also live in a short range state with lots of cover, so 5.56 looses it accuracy edge and...fails at penetration. The cost of x39 firearms was a plus for me as well. In the end, this is what I chose.


I'm having the .30-06 vrs .308 debate myself. I don't trust that Nato calibers will be overly available nessarily, and right now, in hunting loads, .308 is more expensive. Recoil on .30-06 isn't that much different, and if you live in an area with Moose, Bear, etc I think that 180 -220 grain 06' loading starts to look good. Also, in my area, 06 is cheaper...and more avilable. Still, .308's are a shoter faster action in a bolt rifle, and a tiny bit lighter. More than enough in a place like Rural NY where I live. Either are good options. It's win-win whatever you decide. Don't forget about 7.62x54r as an option, a very accurate round as well. It has both bolt and semi auto models...

didnt say it had the same power, i said it has very similar balistics...as in its flight path and effective. yes bullet specs will make the results differ BUT for the most part your not going to notice much difference. 30-30 is better for hunting because thats what its designed for. There are also alot more options on bullet designs taillord to needs but how far do you plan to hunt? 50 yards max for me but then again i'm not wasting ammo on hunting. I say stick with the 7.62x39 if you want to go that route.

 

[medic7.62]

I have thought about 7.62x54r as well. cheap and will do the job. I wouldn't mind having a mosin m-44 and a tokarev 7.62x25 pistol cached somewhere along w/ sealed ammo tins for both.

I owned a ruger 10/22 but i just traded it for a henry survival rifle. probably will buy a ruger 10/22 again sometime.

I also own a Remington 870 Supermag in 12 gauge (camoed out)

These 2 im gonna keep. I will get a couple side by side 50 round mags for the ruger and the henry survival rifle will go into my pack. I also will get an 18 inch barrel and mag extension for the 870 for home defense.

Today I picked up a saiga 308 (16 inch barrel w/ pistol grip conversion) will be getting a scope and side mount for this. I traded in my remmy 700 30-06(synthetic stock) although i kind of miss it now, i figured bolt actions will be legal for a while and aren't priorities right now. I am a really big fan of the m1a but wouldnt mind a PTR-91 since the mags are so cheap(can't go wrong w/ HK)

I also own a norinco MAK-90 w/ a 5 rd mag and 8 30 rounders
I dont know if i should trade this in for a saiga 223 or a kel tec su-16(folds in half,gas piston,light,affordable,takes ar mags) or towards a nice LMT complete lower. I really like the underfolder AK's as well. I like gas pistons better than direct impingement. the SR 556 and sig 556 would be optimal however costly.

Im just at a point where I can't decide on where to go from here.
I think the saiga 308 will be my main battle rifle until i can afford something like an m1a or ptr-91(again big fan of the m1a, however ptr-91 mags are way cheap)

Don't know what to do with the mak-90. I want something with availability/affordability of mags/ammo. Only shot an AR once not super familiar with these.

decisions,decisions

think i might stick w/308 for now for long range plus the saiga will eat and spit out cheap wolf like its nothing. plus more choices in firearms in bolt action, semi-auto etc...