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Cactus_Joe
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16 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hey Everyone,

I am out shopping for another 5.56, and it's bee years since I seriously shopped for one.

What the hell is going on? It seems as if tactical awareness and common sense has been tossed right out the window. I saw a 5.56 yesterday that was set up with so much crap that the weapon would be useless in a real fire-fight.

The damned thing had a flashlight (ultra-stupid)... if you are operating in a reduced lighting situation, the LAST thing you want to do is line up the light with your body. If you must, and I mean you should avoid it, use a flashlight... cross it under the fore-stock, and out of line with your body. If someone uses your light source as an aiming point, the bullets will pass to one side or the other... depending on right/left handedness.

A red-dot scope, totally useful if you want to announce your location. Especially when the shooting starts and the air is full of smoke. I would only consider a red-dot on a pistol. I tried it once, but it did not significantly improve my aim, target acquisition, or accuracy... so I scrapped it.

Don't tie the weapon to your body... yes, it can help you maintain control of your weapon in a scuffle, but if you have good situational and spacial awareness it should never happen... and it comes at a cost. The M-4 is a multi-faceted weapon that can take an amazing amount of force. Have you ever 'Butt-Stroked' someone? Hell, I have swung mine like a baseball bat... Ever used a bayonet? Both are very effective means of killing or disabling the enemy at short range.

That delicate little flower I saw would have been bashed to pieces within seconds, trailing wiring and all kinds of other crap to get fouled in... just what you need when you are fighting for your life.

Nope... give me a plain-Jane M-4 Clone with the carry-handle/flip-sight and bayonet lug. AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!! Can't find on in AZ for less that $1600 that doesn't have the flimsy rail mounted handle.

What happened to KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid? That weapon reminded me of one of those crazy Swiss Army knives with 1000 blades, totally useless.
 

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This should be fun to watch....

I'll start I guess. Since red dots, slings, and lights (or at least NVGs) are standard equipment on military weapons world wide....what makes you, Catus Joe....an expert on what a rifle should and should not have? Particularly since you don't even seem to know what it even is that your condemning? (ie, red dots for instance), having not shopped for one for years...(decades?)and is only trying to shop for one NOW in the midst of the worst market since 2012?
 

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Wait you think all that "crap" you mentioned is stupid but you need a bayonet lug? When was the last time a bayonet on a rifle was used to kill a guy.

I just talked to a marine who moved my business and he awed by the pallets of bayonets I have. He said he was never issued or used a bayonet when he served or even trained with one in basic.

Gave him one as a tip for his work. He acted like it was Christmas.

I call troll post.
 

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Comic, not your lawyer!
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14,026 Posts
I have a light, laser, and/or red dot on a primary HD AR15 and many of my firearms. Red dots on 6 of my HD long guns, and gun mounted lights on probably 10 of my home defense guns.

Each item adds, oh I don't know, 5-6 oz of weight.

Guess I'm doing it wrong. Thanks for letting me know OP.

{PS it seems you don't know what a "red dot" is. It's holographic and only the shooter sees it. I digress. Thanks for all the advice OP.}
 

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Cactus_Joe
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16 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Aerindel... I just remember being trained that my mind was the most important weapon in the arsenal and to keep weapons as simple and streamlined as possible. Every addition is a potential point of failure.

We were even trained to fight with the other side's weapons to provoke friendly fire incidents... As for NVGs, I didn't like the first generation... completely ****ed-up peripheral vision and depth perception. Besides I have always had excellent night-vision.

Just FYI... a laser's source is a fantastic target when using NV goggles or scopes.

Back in the day... I 'Old Skool' altered my M-4 by punching out the large rear peep sight with a drill bit to make it even bigger, and then painting it and the front-sight post with tritium. Makes a nice Ghost-Ring sight... works great. I have tried numerous other sight/scope combinations including holo sights. When you get down to the nut-cutting none of these systems handles abuse and stays sighted-in better than the Old M-4 Carrying Handle...

AND... I already have one, a DPMS. I want a second one for my roommate, in case I need her to back me up.

As for bayonets, I have never actually utilized one to fight... but did use one to extend the reach of my knife to cut a cord and it saved the day.

Since I valued the M-9, I practiced extensively and have no doubt that the weapon and mounted bayonet are capable of killing. Ya don't walk around with it on, but use in when you are hip-deep or when you need to extend the reach of your blade.
 

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Cactus_Joe
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16 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
You are incorrect... the laser can be seen with NVG gear, and the moment that red-dot laser hits a target you know approximately where the shooter is.

If you are talking about the holographic red dots that only the shooter sees, they are great. But just like any sighting system the rail mount is the Achilles heel... too high and too easy to knock the zero off. With the original M-4, the sighting system was protected within the carrying handle.
 

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Wow I learned something new. I just ripped off 5 red dots from my guns and threw them in the trash since they are worthless as we all learned.

Shame that now the guns have no sights... oh wait thats right all of them had backup iron sights.

Well I feel safer now that the roughly 3 people in my county that have night vision can't see me now.
 

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The first M4 I ever saw in the Army had a railed upper and a detachable handle (in early 2000). We were late getting them. I like the A1 sights on a carbine, but that’s even more retro. Almost a custom build to get that unless you find an old Bushmaster - which is not the quality of today’s upper-quality AR’s. I prefer the A1 to an A2, but all I have owned in the last 8 years is a flat top.

Also - if you don’t have the rifle, mags, emergency ammo and some practice ammo in hand now... you’re better off just getting more ammo for what you are comfortable with (if you can find any). It’s no time to be trying to outfit yourself with a 5.56 when ammo is like $600 per 1,000 rounds.
 

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Hey Everyone,

I am out shopping for another 5.56, and it's bee years since I seriously shopped for one.

What the hell is going on? It seems as if tactical awareness and common sense has been tossed right out the window. I saw a 5.56 yesterday that was set up with so much crap that the weapon would be useless in a real fire-fight.

The damned thing had a flashlight (ultra-stupid)... if you are operating in a reduced lighting situation, the LAST thing you want to do is line up the light with your body. If you must, and I mean you should avoid it, use a flashlight... cross it under the fore-stock, and out of line with your body. If someone uses your light source as an aiming point, the bullets will pass to one side or the other... depending on right/left handedness.

A red-dot scope, totally useful if you want to announce your location. Especially when the shooting starts and the air is full of smoke. I would only consider a red-dot on a pistol. I tried it once, but it did not significantly improve my aim, target acquisition, or accuracy... so I scrapped it.

Don't tie the weapon to your body... yes, it can help you maintain control of your weapon in a scuffle, but if you have good situational and spacial awareness it should never happen... and it comes at a cost. The M-4 is a multi-faceted weapon that can take an amazing amount of force. Have you ever 'Butt-Stroked' someone? Hell, I have swung mine like a baseball bat... Ever used a bayonet? Both are very effective means of killing or disabling the enemy at short range.

That delicate little flower I saw would have been bashed to pieces within seconds, trailing wiring and all kinds of other crap to get fouled in... just what you need when you are fighting for your life.

Nope... give me a plain-Jane M-4 Clone with the carry-handle/flip-sight and bayonet lug. AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!! Can't find on in AZ for less that $1600 that doesn't have the flimsy rail mounted handle.

What happened to KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid? That weapon reminded me of one of those crazy Swiss Army knives with 1000 blades, totally useless.
I have one with a carry handle I can sell for less than $1600. Plain M4 clone with A2 upper.
 

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Aerindel... I just remember being trained that my mind was the most important weapon in the arsenal and to keep weapons as simple and streamlined as possible. Every addition is a potential point of failure.
If every single 'addition' to my rifles (every rifle I have as everything you don't like on it) the only problem I would have is.....that I would end up with a gun just like yours, a gun that I can't sling, see what I'm shooting at with and that is slower and harder to aim.

Your best case is my worst case.

Again...I ask why anyone should listen to you when every professional military in the world has adopted the very things you dislike and don't seem to understand.
 

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reluctant sinner
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16,883 Posts
I agree, not a good time to try and buy any firearm if you don't actually need one. Same goes for ammo IMHO.

$1600 would buy a lot of useful things like: meds, water filter/treatment, a small photovoaltic system to charge batteries, a ham radio, storage foods, a good sleeping bag, how to books, seeds, a good backpack for load carrying, maybe eye or dental care.
 

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Comic, not your lawyer!
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14,026 Posts
8 months ago you could have bought a very serviceable AR15 for $350.

It was foolish to not do so then. And it's foolish to chase these current prices now unless it's urgently needed.
 

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Things like tactical weapon lights, passive red dot sights (not red lasers), NVGs, IR lasers, rail mounted optics, railed carry handles, magnifiers, rail mounted passive/thermal sights, variable power combat optics, adjustable stocks, and modern 2-point/Single-point slings have (collectively) been serious combat enhancing gear for nearly 30 years. Taken to war and proven repeatedly. They're not fads. Instead, they're just basic issue. Because they work really, really well.

You have failed to keep up with the changes and the very real reasons for almost universal adoption of those those items... by armies and police forces worldwide.

The things you are ridiculing are the SOPMOD kit things that I started using full-time back in the early & mid 1990s. In places like the First Gulf War, Kurdistan, Bosnia, Kosovo, Africa, Afghanistan, & Iraq. Some of those things having a home on my personal guns to this very day (within the means of my wallet).

The entire US military, Federal/State/Local LEO & SWAT community, military/leo tactical trainer community, and civilian self-defense training community pretty much disagree with you. Not to mention the militaries and police of most of the world (including the Russians, Chinese, Israelis, French, British, German, et al.) In fact, just about every fighting organization on the planet (possessing the budget) standard issues those items as well as trains hard to their use. Including many of our current terrorist/jihadi opponents.

Get yourself some updated training with quality exemplars of these items. You are woefully behind the times... and marching silently to the sound of your own drum. While everyone else in the world is laying waste to live targets... with gear you apparently don't have any recent experience with employing.

BTW: Where did you get NRC regulated Tritium gas to "paint" sights with? In 43 years of employing night sights (starting with issued Promethium M16 front sights back in 1977), I've never come across what you described. Radioactive sealed Tritium lamps professionally mounted in sights instead. Maybe you are referring to glow-in-the-night modeling paints instead?

I'm not busting your chops to amuse myself nor do I mean to sound insulting. But you are way out of your depth judging by your comments.

----------------

Changing track, let's look at KISS rifles/carbines:

I do agree with you about having a bayonet lug and a bayonet. I keep an M7 on my war belt and a barrel adapter for mounting it to a 16" DPMS carbine. That DPMS Panther from years back features fixed A1 carry handle/sights. It scratches my itch for a retro gun. But even that carbine has a Surefire 2-cell white light mounted. Also an Aimpoint CompM2 on a Gooseneck mount. Very much like the gun I took to OEF I back in 2001.

Because I found those items both incredibly useful and durable in actual Infantry/SOF combat. Especially so at night.

I grew up on Army issued M14s, XM-177s, AKMSes, and M16A1s. All equipped with bayonets. Back when pugil stick and bayonet training was a routine and regular thing. I've been knocked out by an M14 butt stroke. Have a scar on my face from M16 bayonet sparring with live blades (no sheaths). I've butt stroked and muzzle struck folks with M16 variants in my hand. I carried a bayonet downrange long after everyone else forgot about 'em. Never had a need, but it was comforting nonetheless.

But I eventually came to deeply appreciate my issued M4A1 14.5 inch carbines... and I'd never go back to those earlier weapons for a fight. Hell, those M4A1s even accepted a bayonet. But the rails and accessories where what made them superb military weapons. Because stuff happens at all distances... and at night. And I was never, ever outgunned by some Gomer wielding an old school iron sighted AK-47. To the contrary, I had his ass. Because I had rails, and lights, and lasers, and NODs, and optics. I could outshoot those guys, at all ranges and light conditions.

For what you are describing (KISS simple guns that are still reliable and somewhat affordable), look at entry level complete ARs from S&W, Ruger, PSA, Springfield, STAG (if you can still find them). Or parts kits from BCM, PSA, Aero Precision, Anderson, etc.

Guns with a fixed F-marked front sight base, a flattop railed upper receiver, and able accept a serviceable/affordable rear BUIS. Like a Magpul. Add a red dot optic or variable power scope of your choice. OR... buy a quality Colt manufactured carry handle and just shoot irons. Nothing flimsy about that A2 carry handle at all. Across decades of hard field use, I never saw one break or come off the weapon... unless some idiot forgot to tighten it down. (If you can find something in a 16" barreled mid-length gas system, with a factory bayonet lug, you're all set for the bayonet thing. Otherwise, a standard carbine length gas-system, 16" barreled AR is going to need a bayonet ring mount adapter for the barrel.)

Protruding cables? That's a matter of Switchology. My stuff never got snagged, because I knew where to mount devices, how to low profile connect them, where to place pressure pads/tape switches/cables, and when to employ things like Vertical Fore Grips. It's an Art developed in the School of Hard Knocks, but the proper techniques are well discussed and readily available on the internet.

Alternatively, build yourself a retro A1 gun from kit parts purchased at Brownells, PSA, etc. Not M4gerys, but 20" rifles that will wring out best velocity from .223/5.56. good guns for whatever ails you... out to an effective 350 meters.

Unfortunately, due to the times we live in, availability and pricing is all over the map. Also unfortunately, I don't believe DPMS is offering any more "A1" clones for sale. Or new anything at all. New ownership and no new guns for sale as the company is now shuttered.

A year ago, you could have bought a NIB 16" Colt 6920 for just south of $1100. Today? Scarce like unicorns. with prices to match. A year ago, you could have built a fixed sight A1 parts gun for well under $600. Today? Good luck... $1000+ when you can even find the same entry level tier guns or their part kits.

Were I looking for another "backup" AR, I'd snap up any direct impingement 5.56 Ruger or S&W carbine (factory equipped with irons) and call it good. Or one of the dwindling supply of DPMS Oracles still out there in retail land. $700 - $900 for all three brands in my area at this time.

If you just have to have an old school, fixed carry handle, A1 sighted AR, both Brownells and Windham (successors to Bushmaster) currently offer such models in the $1100-$1200 MSRP range (less tax, shipping, and transfer fees).

https://www.windhamweaponry.com/firearms/rifles/223-556-caliber-rifle/

https://www.brownells.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/brn-16a1-rifle-5-56mm-20in-black-prod113314.aspx

I won't speak to their long term durability as military fighting weapons (because they're simply not). But they'll do for average home defender purposes.

Most competitor AR versions costing way less... got hoovered up many months ago. As the nation armed up.

Good luck with your shopping search.
 

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Wait you think all that "crap" you mentioned is stupid but you need a bayonet lug? When was the last time a bayonet on a rifle was used to kill a guy.

I just talked to a marine who moved my business and he awed by the pallets of bayonets I have. He said he was never issued or used a bayonet when he served or even trained with one in basic.

Gave him one as a tip for his work. He acted like it was Christmas.

I call troll post.
He wasn't a Marine then.

I took it for granted the OP was a troll/ironic/humor post.
 

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If it was a troll post (I can kinda see that now)... I guess my Humor Detector's battery must have died while I wasn't looking.

Oh well. I gotta go look for some Riser Grease & Canopy Lights now.

I'm sure this thread (like a hundred others) will generate lots of discussion before it inevitably turns into a 9mm vs .45 debate.

LOL.
 

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If it was a troll post (I can kinda see that now)... I guess my Humor Detector's battery must have died while I wasn't looking.

Oh well. I gotta go look for some Riser Grease & Canopy Lights now.


I'm sure this thread (like a hundred others) will generate lots of discussion before it inevitably turns into a 9mm vs .45 debate.

LOL.
...only after we get you E tool qualed!
 

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Aerindel... I just remember being trained that my mind was the most important weapon in the arsenal and to keep weapons as simple and streamlined as possible. Every addition is a potential point of failure.

We were even trained to fight with the other side's weapons to provoke friendly fire incidents... As for NVGs, I didn't like the first generation... completely ****ed-up peripheral vision and depth perception. Besides I have always had excellent night-vision.

Just FYI... a laser's source is a fantastic target when using NV goggles or scopes.

Back in the day... I 'Old Skool' altered my M-4 by punching out the large rear peep sight with a drill bit to make it even bigger, and then painting it and the front-sight post with tritium. Makes a nice Ghost-Ring sight... works great. I have tried numerous other sight/scope combinations including holo sights. When you get down to the nut-cutting none of these systems handles abuse and stays sighted-in better than the Old M-4 Carrying Handle...

AND... I already have one, a DPMS. I want a second one for my roommate, in case I need her to back me up.

As for bayonets, I have never actually utilized one to fight... but did use one to extend the reach of my knife to cut a cord and it saved the day.

Since I valued the M-9, I practiced extensively and have no doubt that the weapon and mounted bayonet are capable of killing. Ya don't walk around with it on, but use in when you are hip-deep or when you need to extend the reach of your blade.

A red dot isn't a laser. Furthermore you're in error on your whole " won't stay sighted in screed" , sorry bud but an ACOG and the like , along with EOTechs and any GOOD glass WILL most assuredly stay sighted.

Pretty much says it all when you rattle off at the mouth like ya " know it all" and then let the cat outa the bag that you bought bottom of the barrel junk like a DPMS ( Doesn't Pass Military Spec).

You're wrong as regards weapons lights too by the way , and quite obviously have very little idea as to how they are to be used and why they can be quite useful.

As for your original query , GOOD bare bones AR/M4s are all over the place from a variety of GOOD manufacturers , the simple fact that you couldn't ascertain this FACT for yourself and had to ask the question here speaks veritable volumes as regards your alleged " expertise ".
 

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Things like tactical weapon lights, passive red dot sights (not red lasers), NVGs, IR lasers, rail mounted optics, railed carry handles, magnifiers, rail mounted passive/thermal sights, variable power combat optics, adjustable stocks, and modern 2-point/Single-point slings have (collectively) been serious combat enhancing gear for nearly 30 years. Taken to war and proven repeatedly. They're not fads. Instead, they're just basic issue. Because they work really, really well.

You have failed to keep up with the changes and the very real reasons for almost universal adoption of those those items... by armies and police forces worldwide.

The things you are ridiculing are the SOPMOD kit things that I started using full-time back in the early & mid 1990s. In places like the First Gulf War, Kurdistan, Bosnia, Kosovo, Africa, Afghanistan, & Iraq. Some of those things having a home on my personal guns to this very day (within the means of my wallet).

The entire US military, Federal/State/Local LEO & SWAT community, military/leo tactical trainer community, and civilian self-defense training community pretty much disagree with you. Not to mention the militaries and police of most of the world (including the Russians, Chinese, Israelis, French, British, German, et al.) In fact, just about every fighting organization on the planet (possessing the budget) standard issues those items as well as trains hard to their use. Including many of our current terrorist/jihadi opponents.

Get yourself some updated training with quality exemplars of these items. You are woefully behind the times... and marching silently to the sound of your own drum. While everyone else in the world is laying waste to live targets... with gear you apparently don't have any recent experience with employing.

BTW: Where did you get NRC regulated Tritium gas to "paint" sights with? In 43 years of employing night sights (starting with issued Promethium M16 front sights back in 1977), I've never come across what you described. Radioactive sealed Tritium lamps professionally mounted in sights instead. Maybe you are referring to glow-in-the-night modeling paints instead?

I'm not busting your chops to amuse myself nor do I mean to sound insulting. But you are way out of your depth judging by your comments.

----------------

Changing track, let's look at KISS rifles/carbines:

I do agree with you about having a bayonet lug and a bayonet. I keep an M7 on my war belt and a barrel adapter for mounting it to a 16" DPMS carbine. That DPMS Panther from years back features fixed A1 carry handle/sights. It scratches my itch for a retro gun. But even that carbine has a Surefire 2-cell white light mounted. Also an Aimpoint CompM2 on a Gooseneck mount. Very much like the gun I took to OEF I back in 2001.

Because I found those items both incredibly useful and durable in actual Infantry/SOF combat. Especially so at night.

I grew up on Army issued M14s, XM-177s, AKMSes, and M16A1s. All equipped with bayonets. Back when pugil stick and bayonet training was a routine and regular thing. I've been knocked out by an M14 butt stroke. Have a scar on my face from M16 bayonet sparring with live blades (no sheaths). I've butt stroked and muzzle struck folks with M16 variants in my hand. I carried a bayonet downrange long after everyone else forgot about 'em. Never had a need, but it was comforting nonetheless.

But I eventually came to deeply appreciate my issued M4A1 14.5 inch carbines... and I'd never go back to those earlier weapons for a fight. Hell, those M4A1s even accepted a bayonet. But the rails and accessories where what made them superb military weapons. Because stuff happens at all distances... and at night. And I was never, ever outgunned by some Gomer wielding an old school iron sighted AK-47. To the contrary, I had his ass. Because I had rails, and lights, and lasers, and NODs, and optics. I could outshoot those guys, at all ranges and light conditions.

For what you are describing (KISS simple guns that are still reliable and somewhat affordable), look at entry level complete ARs from S&W, Ruger, PSA, Springfield, STAG (if you can still find them). Or parts kits from BCM, PSA, Aero Precision, Anderson, etc.

Guns with a fixed F2 marked front sight base, a railed upper receiver, and able accept a serviceable/affordable rear BUIS. Like a Magpul. Add a red dot optic or variable power scope of your choice. OR... buy a quality Colt manufactured carry handle and just shoot irons. Nothing flimsy about that A2 carry handle at all. Across decades of hard field use, I never saw one break or come off the weapon... unless some idiot forgot to tighten it down. (If you can find something in a 16" barreled mid-length gas system, with a factory bayonet lug, you're all set for the bayonet thing. Otherwise, a standard carbine length gas-system, 16" barreled AR is going to need a bayonet ring mount adapter for the barrel.)

Protruding cables? That's a matter of Switchology. My stuff never got snagged, because I knew where to mount devices, how to low profile connect them, where to place pressure pads/tape switches/cables, and when to employ things like Vertical Fore Grips. It's an Art developed in the School of Hard Knocks, but the proper techniques are well discussed and readily available on the internet.

Alternatively, build yourself a retro A1 gun from kit parts purchased at Brownells, PSA, etc. Not M4gerys, but 20" rifles that will wring out best velocity from .223/5.56. good guns for whatever ails you... out to an effective 350 meters.

Unfortunately, due to the times we live in, availability and pricing is all over the map. Also unfortunately, I don't believe DPMS is offering any more "A1" clones for sale. Or new anything at all. New ownership and no new guns for sale as the company is now shuttered.

A year ago, you could have bought a NIB 16" Colt 6920 for just south of $1100. Today? Scarce like unicorns. with prices to match. A year ago, you could have built a fixed sight A1 parts gun for well under $600. Today? Good luck... $1000+ when you can even find the same entry level tier guns or their part kits.

Were I looking for another "backup" AR, I'd snap up any direct impingement 5.56 Ruger or S&W carbine (factory equipped with irons) and call it good. Or one of the dwindling supply of DPMS Oracles still out there in retail land. $700 - $900 for all three brands in my area at this time.

If you just have to have an old school, fixed carry handle, A1 sighted AR, both Brownells and Windham (successors to Bushmaster) currently offer such models in the $1100-$1200 MSRP range (less tax, shipping, and transfer fees).

https://www.windhamweaponry.com/firearms/rifles/223-556-caliber-rifle/

https://www.brownells.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/brn-16a1-rifle-5-56mm-20in-black-prod113314.aspx

I won't speak to their long term durability as military fighting weapons (because they're simply not). But they'll do for average home defender purposes.

Most competitor AR versions costing way less... got hoovered up many months ago. As the nation armed up.

Good luck with your shopping search.

Hey what are you doing injecting common sense into this? Don't think the OP wanted a common sense answer ( chuckle).
 
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