Just google a raptor grip and it will go onto a cruiser
No legal issues either since the will be 4.5" longer than the shockwave

 

Yeah, the 26" overall length is the magic number and I see lots of birds-head grips for sale. The real deal SW is around 26.75" long. Put a stock or PG onto it and it could get you in hot water.

 

Thanks,gun shop had the two side by side.There was a size difference,but not huge.Price was the big difference...489 vs 189 for the used pistol grip.

 

NVM. Misread.

 

This type of grip is nothing new in the shotgun world, its only new to people new to shotguns.
Speedfeed has made them for years and before that people just cut the wooded stocks down.

Is it better than the regularly seen shotgun pistol grip.....yes!! it rolls the recoil instead of snapping your wrist.

 

I found the recoil was manageable and I was able to get the next shots off quickly. It had a natural feel to it.

 

At the shop, the ATF give us some papers as we prepared to sell them. I was told by my agent that if you add anything to the shockwave it will be a firearm and subject to the law. The adding of a raptor grip, on the other hand, is fine if the firearm still is the right length.

 

The Shockwave is a firearm FYI. It is not a shotgun. It is a non NFA Firearm. Nothing wrong with adding things or removing things, but you need to know what you are doing in the case of the Tac 14 or Shockwave.

If you remove the birds head and add a standard pistol grip it will be shorter than 26" therefore to do this you will have to pay for a $5 AOW (any other weapon) tax stamp, and wait 6-9 months for approval from the ATF. If you add a stock it would become a SBS (Short Barreled Shotgun) for that configuration you would have to pay $200 SBS tax stamp and wait 6-9 months for approval from the ATF.

If you add a pistol grips that allows you to add a AR15 reciever extension, you can add a brace to this configuration and still have a legal non NFA firearm. If you add a stock the NFA SBS rules apply.



As for the OPs question nothing wrong with adding the birds head grip to standard 500 if you like.

 

This plastic birdshead grip has been around for at least 20 years, possibly longer. Cheaper Than Dirt used to sell them years ago.

Figure if you can put a Mossberg pistol grip on a standard length Mossberg 500 shotgun, you can put this birdshead grip on it.

 

My understanding, and I've three of the family, is that a Class III shotgun is okay to carry concealed.

A Shockwave is NOT okay to carry concealed. It's not Class III because overall length is 26" or greater.

A shotgun with an 18" or longer barrel with an overall length greater than 26" is okay to carry concealed.

It must be wonderful the way alcohol, tobacco and guns mix to make government policy.

 

Wilson Firearms produced a shotgun called a Witness Protection shotgun for Secret Service use, it had a birdshead grip like a regular shotgun could be carried concealed and if needed ,it was to be pushed out and fired at arms length like you were using a regular shotgun except with no stock ,but just around this time the Uzi was introduced and this Wilson specialized shotgun fell by the wayside...............that's my story and I'm sticking to it ;-)

 

Mainly for US Marshal Service:

https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/wilson-witness-protection-870/

- OS

 

I've had several of the pistol grip shotguns over the years and the way they shove the recoil down your arm and wrist makes it hurt to shoot them for me. Same thing with an AR 308 I built- pistol grips just suck unless it's on a 1911.
My tac 14 12 gauge sends the recoil up instead of back. I just wish the grip had some finger groves or maybe a rubber grip sleeve to help with holding it in place.
Been contemplating on how hard it would be to make my own wood grip for it with some finger grooves. I think that may be a wintertime project

 

I tried the rubber grip thing (inner tube) on my Shockwave when I first got it. Took half an hour struggle to get it on, and by round #6 in the first tube after, it was all the way up around the safety.

I ended up stippling both the grip and fore-end. Made a major difference in stopping the gun from moving around in my hands when firing.

I would think if you went with wood, and good, sharp checkering job would be your best bet.

 

I have some large shrink tubing I'm going to try on mine, it is softer than the grip material. At the worst I'll just cut the tubing off if it doesn't work out.

 

Here's an interesting take on traditional vs. PGO shotguns. https://youtu.be/tYjThckYqBQ

They don't have a shockwave but it's the same principle. The traditional is far faster, more accurate, and practical.

 

Those guys are usually pretty good in their comparisons, but I think they are a little off here.

Theres no doubt, a full stocked gun is going to be easier to handle, shooting like they are in the video and at those distances, but with a little practice, the Shockwaves arent as bad as you hear, and they are a lot more compact and easier to move and shoot with, especially in confined spaces.

The way they fire "from the hip", is about the worst way to shoot them, and their results are about what youd expect doing so. Im not saying you cant get hits with it that way, but thats not the way thats going to repeatably get you good, solid hits, from a quick "point" type stance.

Bring the gun up to the center of your body at a point between your nipples, and its the next best thing to aiming with a stock. Shooting like that with good solid hits every time at 10-15 yards is easy, and its point shooting, not aimed fire. Youre aiming with your body, in true Applegate fashion. For the type of shooting they are talking about using the guns for, its fast and natural once you do it a little bit.

Much of how you use/handle them is like you would with a stocked gun too. Not movie style hip or whatever shooting. Think of it as a long handgun and a slightly modified SUL ready, with the grip indexed at about your solar plexus.

Up to the eye aiming isnt hard either, but I dont find it near as natural or fast. My arms must be to short, as even though I shoot that way with it a good bit, Im not as fast with it, especially with multiple shots. Holding the gun out away from my face just goes against the grain for me, and feels awkward and unnatural, even with practice.

And keep in mind too, these are a niche type gun, with a pretty narrow practical use. And even though I have one, its still probably the last thing Id grab for around the house. I have a bunch of riot type shotguns too, and Im still not a fan.

Ill still take a 10" AR with a brace and/or a high cap handgun over most things these days.

 

They fired the PGO gun in all manner, both hip and eye level. It didn't work as well as a stocked gun. Seems we otherwise agree, it's a niche gun.

 

Quit bouncing around. I feel like Im chasing the dog. :

They did try "hip" and "eye" level shooting, but with a gun that has a totally different grip than the birds head grips the Shockwave and Tac 13-14 have, and with readily admitted little experience with them to boot.

Not to mention, they never tried the one stance that would have made a major difference in how the gun handles and shoots, when fired from below eye level. Although, its still not as comfortable or natural, using one of the pistol gripped guns they were using.

We really are discussing different fruit here when it comes to the gips and how they shoot, and how you shoot them.

The Shockwaves are cheap, buy one see for yourself. Its the only way to really know. :thumb:

 

I may very well buy one as a total novelty. But I see it having nearly zero practical utility. I'm cool with that, and have other guns that fit that role. I'd probably get one in 20 ga.

I respect Hickok's view. https://youtu.be/CxECBq-f68s?t=1660

https://youtu.be/CxECBq-f68s?t=718

Not trying to rain on parades. I think they are darn cool, but not practical.

 

And I think the "not practical" analogy hits it right on the head.

What is it for? Personal defense? Survival? Shooting fast flying airborne targets? (Sorry, I had to) What role does a 14" barreled shotgun serve? When Wilson came out with theirs some 20 or so years ago it was marketed to Law Enforcement for concealability and firepower. At the time, it was the only game in town unless you made your own. It fell out of favor, considering price point (it was well over $1000.00) and restricted sales to LE only.

So what is it really used for? What is the target consumer group? Home defense? Door breaching? Social work at bad breath range? Would it work for all those jobs? Sure it would. Is it the best choice?

Clyde Barrow of Bonnie and Clyde fame used a 14" barreled Remington Model 11 20ga. that he also shortened the stock @3". He called it a "Whippet Gun". He carried it with a piece of leather attached to the stock and looped over his shoulder. He liked that it would fire 6 rounds in about a second, clearing the way or the room. A good use for that type of gun.

I too see zero practicality in one. I truly don't think it even fills a niche. And yes, I'll probably buy one just to shoot fast flying aerial targets. (I know, I'm horrible) But mine will be the wood stocked Remington 870. Because, well, I have class.

 

Youre right, their practicality is pretty limited, but they arent worthless and with an open mind, and some quality time spent with one, can be a formidable weapon in pretty much anyones hands, if they are willing to learn and understand them. That goes for pretty much anything too. That last part is usually where things break down.

The Shockwave and Tac14 are up there with things like FA MAC's, or Glock 18's, Beretta 93R's, etc. All of those things are pretty limited in use, but for those few uses, they do work well, especially for those who have trained with them, understand them, and know how and when to use them.

And just like those guns, which generally have a very small slice of the shooting public who have experience with them, they can be intimidating and uncontrollable to those who havent spent anytime with them, or even shot one, to understand them.

Ive owned and shot all manner of things over the years that fit the above, and have been often, if not constantly told, "by those in the know", that they are not controllable, shootable, and serve no real purpose. Really!?

Comments like that right there, tell me right off, that person doesnt know what they are talking about, and likely has little to more likely, no experience or training at all, with what they are talking about. If they had, they wouldnt be talking like that.

As Ive said before, actual experience with things tends to change perspective. And by "experience", Im mean true learning and use experience, not just shooting a couple of rounds or a mag out of a somebody elses gun.

I equate this to people they hire at work, who tell you they can run a D6 dozer or a road grader, excavator, etc. When they get on the machine, they can start it and move it (a plus! , but they cant "run" it. Thats a whole different world, that they havent yet experienced. Even if they think because they can move it, it makes them an "operator". Theres a bit more to it.

Really no difference here with firearms either. Most can figure out how to get them loaded and fire them, but that doesnt mean they can run one "properly". But hey! They got it loaded and shot the neighbor's house by mistake. No biggie.

The further away you get from the more common rifle and shotguns people tend to learn on, hunt with, and have experience with, the smaller the "experienced group" with not so common things, tends to get.

One other thing here that I think is often overlooked, if its even considered at all, is the knowledge and versatility thing. We always hear the this is better than that arguments, people complaining that this doesnt shoot well, or the ergos are all wrong on that, etc, etc.

Most all of that is complaints based on what a person knows, and what they dont. Overall, I believe "most" dont have a whole lot of experience with things outside of what they personally own. So right off, their choice is best. That prejudice is always going to exist too. Just human nature.

The fact that "they" cant work it, or "they" cant shoot it, doesnt mean that everyone cant, just that they haven't bothered to learn the gun and how to use it. That isnt the guns fault in any way either. But try telling people that.

Ive always thought that the more you know about as much as you can learn, youre going to be way better off down the road, than if you truly specialize, and only know one thing.

Just having, learning, and knowing the Shockwave, even if I may not like the thing, puts me way ahead in the long run, than someone who hasnt bothered.

If its the only gun laying around on the ground, and all Im going to get, I can pick it up, and know how to use it, what to expect from it, and I have a real good idea, Im not going to miss with that first shot, or have troubles working it, simply because, its not my first time, and Im familar with it.

That right there is worth the $370 they cost, and the few bucks spent in ammo to learn to use it. Even if I do throw it in the creek after Im done. :

 

Just having, learning, and knowing the Shockwave, even if I may not like the thing, puts me way ahead in the long run, than someone who hasnt bothered.

I grabbed this quote because I have an honest question; Whats the difference (other than stock and barrel length) between a Shockwave and a 500/590? Or a Tac 14 and an 870? Someone who has hunted for 30+ years with an 870 is disadvantaged how? The same with a 590.

I could understand if we were talking about someone who had never seen a pump action shotgun before, but very few outdoorsmen do not have at least some experience with a pump action shotgun.

The Shockwave did not invent the wheel. There is nothing new about it. The concept is as old as shotguns. But now its readily available and highly popular.

Other than looking cool, what role is it the best at? In your opinion.

 

Yup, right there with a briefcase gun, Glock 18, Beretta 93, and a host of other spy gear and security work gadgets for protection details - yes, these have value to someone needing both clandestine operations in tight quarters and business attire, and heavy firepower.

As exciting as that would be, none of that fits my roles... I'm a boring homeowner with large rooms and hallways to defend. A stocked shotgun requires less training, is faster, and more accurate.

If I pick up a side gig defending diplomats and CEOs, I'll look into hours of training with novel items. Until then...

 

Your pretty much making my point here.

Things that are unfamiliar to you, are blown off as something for someone else, but with all of them, the general principles of learning to use and shooting them are the same.

Shotguns also require just as much training, as anything else, and for many, probably even more, if you want to be proficient with them in the manner youre talking about using one.

To kind of bring this closer to home, I seem to remember you posting a pic of you shooting an MP5 on a range. Was that actual training, or just for fun?

Were you just doing mag dumps, or actually training with it and shooing it in the proper manner?

If the former, were you actually keeping all the rounds on target in a reasonably close group COM, or were you all over the place, and just have a big smile on your face? Well, that last part is kind of a trick question and a given either way.

But seriously, fun time and realistic training and shooting are two very different things, and can give totally different experiences, especially if you havent been shown how to properly use whatever it is youre using.


Once you get your Shockwave, and get to know it, we should talk again and see if you feel the same way. Im betting your thoughts will be a little different. Not saying youre going to love it, or totally change your thinking here, but I truly believe, you will not be as negative about them, and understand them better.

If youre just going to keep blowing off, with no experience, then theres really no point in going on.

And if you get one, try it in the house in practice, and see if you notice a difference in maneuverability in close quarters. I think youll find its more like a handgun than a long gun, and much easier to work with. Even in your big house, the distances we are talking about, are well within its "easy" zone, if youre the least bit capable.

As far as the spy stuff, my buddy keeps a Shockwave in his umbrella stand at his front door. Super cool, and covert! Then again, hes a bit of a nut. :

Oh, and nut or not, you wouldnt want to be in front of him while hes shooting you with it either. Hes pretty good with it. Hes even better with one of his SMG's. But then again, who isnt? :thumb:

I grabbed this quote because I have an honest question; Whats the difference (other than stock and barrel length) between a Shockwave and a 500/590? Or a Tac 14 and an 870? Someone who has hunted for 30+ years with an 870 is disadvantaged how? The same with a 590.

I could understand if we were talking about someone who had never seen a pump action shotgun before, but very few outdoorsmen do not have at least some experience with a pump action shotgun.

The Shockwave did not invent the wheel. There is nothing new about it. The concept is as old as shotguns. But now its readily available and highly popular.

Other than looking cool, what role is it the best at? In your opinion.

The boys in the video seem to be pretty well versed in a lot of things, including to a point, shotguns. Yet they seem to have had some troubles with the pistol gripped shotgun, especially when shot below eye level. I suspect they would have the same problem with the full stocked version doing the same thing.

The point being, they dont seem to be familiar with shooting in any way other than a traditional "shouldered" stance. And reality is, you may not always get that oppertunity to get the gun shouldered. There was a time, this was a taught and effective skill. Seems maybe its becoming one of the lost arts.

A lot of weapons have modified versions, done so to allow different uses. Those different uses, can bring about different ways to use them, good or bad, depending on the users experience and skill level. If youre familiar with those "unusual" or different ways, its not a problem. If youre not, then the gun will likely not be suitable to you. Thats not the fault of the gun.

And just like their big brothers, the full stocked versions, or anything else for that matter, if you dont regularly practice with one, your experiences with one, are likely not going to be very positive in reality.


Im betting the popularity, more than anything else, is the fact that you can now have a "sawed off shotgun", just like you see on TV and the movies, and were always told you couldnt own, legally. And now you can.

So I guess "cool" may have a lot to do with it. "Want" Im sure is also just another factor.

What you do with it past that is entirely on you. You can learn to actually use it, or you can tell your buddies..."here, try this, its a beast, and really sucks, and Ill bet you cant hit anything with it! :" And thats about as far as it will go.

Im betting the later will turn out to be the actual case for most.

 

The MP5 was for training, and was government owned and government ammo. Since I didn't carry one, would never be assigned one, and don't own one, and would never likely use one, the training was light and mostly familiarity "just in case" and it was optional. Since it's a simple ergonomic weapon, it was mastered easily.

Conversely, https://youtu.be/IlBKWYOxzMY?t=2

It's on my radar, but very very very very very low priority. For the same money I can get something far more practical and desirable. Picked up 5 Remington 870 wingmasters former riot police/prison guns for under $200 each recently. Far more useful in every scenario absent compactness. Picked up an AR15 for $400 in the last 6 months. Far more useful in every scenario than a shockwave. And so forth.

Again there's just no case, other than a range toy, to be made for it. Yes, you can master it. You can master almost any task with enough time/training. But what is the utility and trade off of spending 100 hours mastering 1 shockwave, versus 10 hours each mastering 10 different guns.

So, yep, shockwave is interesting but a very low priority. And yes, I do like "fun guns."

 

"Want" is a perfectly acceptable reason. (Hey! I bit on the Ithaca "Roadblocker")

But I have to say, if the price point had stayed north of $1000.00 (like the Wilson version, which, unless I'm mistaken, is still available as a custom order) we wouldn't be discussing them.

 

Before you buy one, just buy the grip, put it on an 18in barreled shotgun and give it a try...…..you'll like it, you'll have fun and save yourself a lot of time and money.

Remember with these "firearms" you cant put the stock on them, but on a shotgun you can. its much more versatile to just add the grip to your existing shotgun.

 

Maybe I don't want to swap stocks/grips back and forth on my shotgun, so I'll own one of each.

I don't care about the utility. I think the Shockwave is neat, and I'll probably have me one in a 20 gauge for a grouse gun while I'm out on my ATV.

Or just for fun.

 

If I were still in grizzly bear country, I'd consider the Shockwave in 12 gauge to be a pretty good idea for a hiking gun. Down here in black bear country, the 20 gauge ought to serve just fine. I suspect there's one in my future.

 

Why?

It's slower and less accurate (assuming the exact same amount of training with a stocked shotgun), less muzzle energy, less potential capacity, and the weight difference is trivial. And presumably loaded with full power slugs (maybe even 3" or larger) it would be a vastly different shooting experience.

Literally offers no real-world advantage against a bear, and is marginally lighter for hiking. Perhaps there might be a scenario where a bear is atop and pinning you down, and you might be able to maneuver a shorty better - but that's getting into fantasy territory.

 

Hey, I actually shoot one on a fairly regular basis. I actually do know what they are like. How about you?

Dont bother, we already know the answer. :thumb:

Im not sure where the carbine to pistol comes in, but as Ive stated a number of times now, these days I prefer a 10" AR over pretty much everything else.

The very last thing I would grab, would be one of my 12 gauge riot guns, and the Shockwave is just the teensiest bit ahead of them in the queue too.

But, I still think you should get one and see what they are all about. Might surprise you, once you get some actual experience with one and understand it.

 

Im not sure where the carbine to pistol comes in, but as Ive stated a number of times now, these days I prefer a 10" AR over pretty much everything else.

Obviously, the difference being a stock and longer barrel for ... wait for it... recoil, accuracy, longer site radius, cheek weld, follow up shots, longer range, and more energy from longer barrel.

Otherwise pistols would be logistically better for everyone. They aren't. There's a clear reason.

Heck, even older pistols were designed WITH stocks. And submachine guns with stocks.

Stocks are a significant force multiplier. How you cannot understand this and continue to argue against physics is breath-taking.

 

No argument that a SMG with a stock is better than one without, but one without, isn't all that hard to shoot either, if you know which ones and how. But again, its that pesky experience thing popping up again. :thumb:

Handguns with stocks on the other hand, pretty much suck, or at least the couple Ive had, and a few of the others Ive shot did. Not worth the bother. Kind of defeats the purpose of the handgun too.

And all along, Ive never said the stocked shotgun wasnt better in "most" cases, but in certain circumstances, things like the Shockwaves, are better, if you know when and why, and know how to shoot them. Same thing goes with things like SMG's and FA. But thats not something you pick up reading about or watching a video.

But again, theres that experience thing. :thumb:

 

I think this horse is pretty much beat to death... but if anyone is curious, the Shockwave is basically a Mossberg copy of the Remington WP870 that was used by the US Marshall's Service.

There's a reason they used it, and it's not just a gimmick... it served a purpose.
Here's a quick write-up I found on it, I'm sure there's more out there if anyone cares to look. This one even has a range test. Good patterns out to 15 yards, and they're running 12.5" barrels...

Notice the grip shape they went with.

https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/wilson-witness-protection-870/

 

The WP870 has made several appearances in the media. I have a clipping from the November 11, 1985, issue of Newsweek magazine in my files that carried the headline “Busting the Bhagwam.” A photo shows a U.S. marshal carrying a WP870 as he escorts a prisoner to a hearing in Charlotte, North Carolina. In an Associated Press photo from February 2, 1987, a female marshal is shown providing court security during the trial of narco trafficker Carlos Lehder Rivas. The sight of this sawed-off scattergun certainly attracted attention and served as a deterrent....One of the marshals’ requirements of the Witness Protection 870 was that it be concealable under a jacket.

To be effective, the WP870 requires a unique firing position. The preferred position is to bring the shotgun to eye level and extended away from the face. In this manner, the WP870 is capable of sighted fire as if it were a stocked shotgun. To maximize recoil control, a push/pull grip is used with the support hand pushing forward while the strong hand pulls to the rear. Invariably, a new shooter will want to shoot it from the hip, Hollywood style. However, they will quickly learn how easy it is to miss an entire target from as close as 10 yards.

Given the mission parameters of the Witness Protection 870, we conducted pattern testing at 15 yards. The #4 buckshot, which is a sporting and hunting load, produced a pattern that measured 24 by 21 inches, with the diameter being 31.8 inches. The reduced-recoil Ranger loads patterned significantly better, with the nine-pellet load producing a pattern of 7 by 9 inches (11.9-inch diameter) while the eight-pellet pattern measured 7.5 by 9.5 inches (12.1-inch diameter). The nine-pellet frangible load created a 10-by-12.5-inch pattern with a 16-inch diameter. Our shooting impressions were very positive when the proper technique was utilized. The #4 load produced the sharpest recoil, while both reduced-recoil loads were quite easy to shoot.

The WP870 was designed for a specific close-protection role, and it protected lawmen and bad guys equally.

Bingo. And there you have it. RE-Iterating a point we're all pretty well dialed in on. The sole usefulness of the device. Compact, often concealable, transportable instant firepower for military, paramilitary, and LEO operations on the move.

Now, raise your hand if you are getting a shockwave for military, paramilitary, and LEO operations.

Again, I may acquire one as a novelty but the purpose for which it's primary design/market is does not suit most users.

*From a legal standpoint, I find it odd and absurd that the Miller Court in US v. Miller found that the short barreled shotgun is not protected under the 2A b/c it has no military application. Heck the application is almost entirely military going back to the blunderbus... I digress.