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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://news.yahoo.com/seed-libraries-struggle-state-laws-limiting-exchanges-151655945.html

The conflict(s) seem to vary by state and the laws appear to have been implemented about ten years ago to protect farmers and agricultural industries in those states. The assorted authorities are not out-and-out banning the libraries and exchanges, just reducing the "exchanges" to one or a few days per year.

Just thought this was something we should keep in mind going forward.
 

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The Seed-Saver Exchange I attend every year has been running for nearly 30 years.

My Grange has been established for well over a century and we share seeds there. Unfortunately within the Grange, up at the National Level, they are very anti-organic and anti-sustainable. They favor GMOs and petro-chemical based farming. Which is a topic we are trying to address within the Grange.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The Seed-Saver Exchange I attend every year has been running for nearly 30 years.

My Grange has been established for well over a century and we share seeds there. Unfortunately within the Grange, up at the National Level, they are very anti-organic and anti-sustainable. They favor GMOs and petro-chemical based farming. Which is a topic we are trying to address within the Grange.
You are very fortunate, FBK. :thumb: We have a Farmer's Co-op, but I haven't been there. They are the fellas who actually farm for a living around here. I stick with two different nurseries where I know the owner/operator and Southern Exposure Seed Exchange. Among the folks selling at Farmer's Markets, it's a mixed bag. If you want organic produce, ask before you buy.

The long arm of Monsanto lining the pockets of lawmakers to protect their patents.
I know Monsanto is our favored whipping boy around here, but they're not the only ones to watch. DuPont and Bayer (yes, the aspirin people) have a hand in the patent protection pot, too. To this day, I wonder whose brainchild it was to splice fish scale DNA into tomatoes so the skins wouldn't bruise as easily. Yuck.

If anyone is interested, here's a link to the Seed Law Tool Shed. It's a work-in-progress "hackpad" collaborative document. I don't know these people, so I can't recommend or not recommend adding to the information on it.

https://hackpad.com/ep/group/BdawSUkxAQE
 

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We have problem with citrus regulations from both the state and federal level in FL. While not too strictly enforced, it is illegal to plant citrus seeds by an individual in FL and grafting is illegal for non-certified nurseries and individuals. The state has seeds available for certified nurseries, but not for the individual. In someway this is connected to controlling citrus diseases. You also may not bring citrus trees into FL.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
We have problem with citrus regulations from both the state and federal level in FL. While not too strictly enforced, it is illegal to plant citrus seeds by an individual in FL and grafting is illegal for non-certified nurseries and individuals. The state has seeds available for certified nurseries, but not for the individual. In someway this is connected to controlling citrus diseases. You also may not bring citrus trees into FL.
That is understandable and the reason there are agricultural laws/statutes in place, however, it is also indicative of the problems with monoculture and not having exception legislation in place. In the case of Florida, perhaps the Master Gardeners throughout the state could organize classes for individuals to become certified in recognizing and treating citrus diseases (both organically and non-organically) in order for individuals to grow their own oranges, grapefruits, lemons and limes.

Just a thought.
 

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Pffffht.

They may try to enforce this... and maybe task the DEA to it (since it appears marywanna is officially endorsed these days)... but it's going to be impossible to enforce.

I say we should subvert this every chance we get. I ain't gonna cower in front of a really STUPID regulation that hurts no one. This crap's gotta stop. I will not comply.

How're these idjit even gonna know what variety I have growing? Much less how I got the seed?
 

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That is understandable and the reason there are agricultural laws/statutes in place, however, it is also indicative of the problems with monoculture and not having exception legislation in place. In the case of Florida, perhaps the Master Gardeners throughout the state could organize classes for individuals to become certified in recognizing and treating citrus diseases (both organically and non-organically) in order for individuals to grow their own oranges, grapefruits, lemons and limes.

Just a thought.
Normally to be certified as a nursery requires more than just an ed course. There is so much money tied up in the citrus industry that there is no way that is going to happen. Besides the one course I took on citrus from a so called "master" gardener, he did not even know that many citrus will grow true from seed. I am after that not so impressed with master gardeners. I was thinking of signing up for such a course to be a master gardener and you had to file an application to be considered for it. In my opinion they can take and shove it somewhere.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Sorry for your negative experience with that Master Gardener in Florida. We have a good one here that serves several counties. I had a problem with the county extension office. Couldn't get them to answer the phone so I could make an appointment. :xeye: I called her and she informed me that the county extension offices in Tennessee are funded by state sales tax, so I could hop across the county line to the office there, no harm, no foul.

Yes, the Master Gardener program is a trans-national program (U.S. and Canada) through the American Horticultural Society. Obviously, their effectiveness varies by locale.

http://www.ahs.org/gardening-resources/master-gardeners

(I'm still puzzled how a "Master Gardener" could *not* know that an open pollinated/heirloom citrus variety would absolutely grow true... :confused:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Pffffht.

They may try to enforce this... and maybe task the DEA to it (since it appears marywanna is officially endorsed these days)... but it's going to be impossible to enforce.

I say we should subvert this every chance we get. I ain't gonna cower in front of a really STUPID regulation that hurts no one. This crap's gotta stop. I will not comply.

How're these idjit even gonna know what variety I have growing? Much less how I got the seed?
Fortunately for me, I'm not growing tobacco, grapes, alfalfa, oats, wheat *or* mary-huh-wanna so I should be all right for now. :)

What variety is easy: steal a sample and test its DNA. :taped: As to how you got the seed...maybe they stake out the seed swaps and snap pictures of everyone's tag? :confused: I really can't see them re-tasking a satellite for such a job.

If anyone wants to really rile me up, just try banning Turkey Craw Green Beans. I've been wondering what that variety was for 15 years, and someone brought a batch to my uncle's wake this past summer. The source of these amazing beans is about thirty miles away. (Yes, I'm marking the days off my calendar already to when I can plant them. :) )
 
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Sorry for your negative experience with that Master Gardener in Florida. We have a good one here that serves several counties. I had a problem with the county extension office. Couldn't get them to answer the phone so I could make an appointment. :xeye: I called her and she informed me that the county extension offices in Tennessee are funded by state sales tax, so I could hop across the county line to the office there, no harm, no foul.

Yes, the Master Gardener program is a trans-national program (U.S. and Canada) through the American Horticultural Society. Obviously, their effectiveness varies by locale.

http://www.ahs.org/gardening-resources/master-gardeners

(I'm still puzzled how a "Master Gardener" could *not* know that an open pollinated/heirloom citrus variety would absolutely grow true... :confused:)
From the little reading that I have done it not so much "open pollinated/heirloom citrus variety would absolutely grow true" but rather:
He said that a great number of citrus trees will come true from seed. There is a way that you can tell by examining a few seeds from the tree. Peel off the outer and inner seed coat. It the seed is polyembryonic, i.e. has many embryos, it will come true. I asked what it would look like if it were polyembryonic. Carl said that the various embryos would be convoluted upon each other. If it is mono-embryonic there will be one embryo with two distinct cotyledons. Almost any sweet orange will come true from seed, as well as key limes, grapefruit, tangerine and tangelo. Two varieties that will not come true from seed are temple and pomelo. http://www.ultimatecitrus.com/pdf/tncitrus.htm
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
You got me there, barnetmill. I completely take your word for it. :)

I'm allergic to oranges, tangerines, and tangelos. Don't like grapefruits, but love (and can have) lemonade and limeade. What the difference is, I haven't a clue. Maybe one day I'll have me a greenhouse where I can grow lemons, limes and bananas. :)
 
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You got me there, barnetmill. I completely take your word for it. :)

I'm allergic to oranges, tangerines, and tangelos. Don't like grapefruits, but love (and can have) lemonade and limeade. What the difference is, I haven't a clue. Maybe one day I'll have me a greenhouse where I can grow lemons, limes and bananas. :)
My training is in Zoology and I am now as a senior citizen learning a little about botany. More precise detail from a publication: Plant Physiol. (1996) 11 O: 599-609 http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/110/2/599.full.pdf A master gardener that does not already know the following in a Citrus growing state like Florida is not much of a master.

In most angiosperms, a single embryo usually develops per seed. However, in some cultivars of Citrus, multiple embryos can be found in an individual seed that is described as polyembryonic. Polyembryonic seed formation in Citrus is one of many apomictic* processes that have been described to occur in the ovules of angiosperm species (Koltunow, 1993). In polyembryonic seed formation, many nonzygotic, nucellar embryos are initiated directly from the maternal, nucellar** cells surrounding the embryo sac containing a developing zygotic embryo. During embryo sac expansion, embryogenic nucellar cells obtain access to endosperm and develop into embryos alongside the zygotic embryo that may or may not complete development. Nucellar embryos give rise to seedlings that are of the same genotype as the female parent.
*In botany, apomixis was defined by Hans Winkler as replacement of the normal sexual reproduction by asexual reproduction, without fertilization.

** During the development of seeds from plants that possess this genetic trait, the nucellar tissue which surrounds the megagametophyte can produce additional embryos (polyembryony) which are genetically identical to the parent plant.
I have to go find my introductory botany text and I will go review them. Typical master gardeners that know not of botany make we wonder.
 

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I'd suggest that master gardeners are more or less informal horticulturalists and not plant physiologists or botanists as a reason why they may not know this. I checked into the local master gardener program here and was rather dismayed by the lack of scientific knowledge taught or required.

It seemed to me to be a program where the participant learned about composting, choosing appropriate vegetables, fruits, nuts, ornamentals, grains, lawn grasses and livestock forage, and the general principles of gardening, pruning and cultivation. It was simple rote memorization along with some hands on knowledge, but it was all fairly shallow with little taught of the underlying science of plant physiology. In other words, they were teaching the 'hows' but not the 'whys'.

They're a good resource for people who don't know a lot about gardening and want to know what to plant in their area and when and how, but that's about the extent of it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
That is truly fascinating. Thank you very, very much for posting the excerpt and your additional notes. :thumb:

I'm still stumbling along with planting the right stuff within 20 feet of each other and keeping the wrong stuff either further away or not planting it at all to avoid cross-pollination.

And I think whatever killed the pine tree in the backyard also killed my blueberry bushes. :( I may have to call the extension office in the next county to get their recommended lab to test the soil.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I'd suggest that master gardeners are more or less informal horticulturalists and not plant physiologists or botanists as a reason why they may not know this. I checked into the local master gardener program here and was rather dismayed by the lack of scientific knowledge taught or required.

It seemed to me to be a program where the participant learned about composting, choosing appropriate vegetables, fruits, nuts, ornamentals, grains, lawn grasses and livestock forage, and the general principles of gardening, pruning and cultivation. It was simple rote memorization along with some hands on knowledge, but it was all fairly shallow with little taught of the underlying science of plant physiology. In other words, they were teaching the 'hows' but not the 'whys'.

They're a good resource for people who don't know a lot about gardening and want to know what to plant in their area and when and how, but that's about the extent of it.
Bold: That would be me. :D:

Our local master gardener has been at it about 40 years. And she leads groups on some kind of trip related to gardening or plants a couple of times a year despite her (ahem) maturity. Starts her plants in her kitchen well before last frost, has a cold frame, had a gardening column for years, well-versed in food preservation methods, pro-open pollination/heirloom seed...not sure what more I would ask for in a Master Gardener, but maybe my expectations are low. :eek::
 
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That is truly fascinating. Thank you very, very much for posting the excerpt and your additional notes. :thumb:

I'm still stumbling along with planting the right stuff within 20 feet of each other and keeping the wrong stuff either further away or not planting it at all to avoid cross-pollination.

And I think whatever killed the pine tree in the backyard also killed my blueberry bushes. :( I may have to call the extension office in the next county to get their recommended lab to test the soil.
There is of course theory, but practical experience is absoutely essential. For myself I have a gardening group that has about 19 people going from the bay area of CA to Georgia. Most of the people are near by me in the deep south and having farming, or running nursery, or gardening experience for years. They seem to know the answers for most of my common questions. At least one is teaching in an agricultural institution in Georgia. We trade graft wood and seeds and have long discussions on various topics. Two of them are officers for fruit growing groups and many attend all sorts conferences. I recently got some hybrid Chinese chestnut/chinquapin seeds that we hope are blight resistant. I planted them and have some that came up. I hope to transplant them this spring. I was given some paw paw seeds, but I may have to wait for spring for them to come up. Having a lot of friends is the best way to obtain seeds, grafting wood, cuttings, and advice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
There is of course theory, but practical experience is absoutely essential. For myself I have a gardening group that has about 19 people going from the bay area of CA to Georgia. Most of the people are near by me in the deep south and having farming, or running nursery, or gardening experience for years. They seem to know the answers for most of my common questions. At least one is teaching in an agricultural institution in Georgia. We trade graft wood and seeds and have long discussions on various topics. Two of them are officers for fruit growing groups and many attend all sorts conferences. I recently got some hybrid Chinese chestnut/chinquapin seeds that we hope are blight resistant. I planted them and have some that came up. I hope to transplant them this spring. I was given some paw paw seeds, but I may have to wait for spring for them to come up. Having a lot of friends is the best way to obtain seeds, grafting wood, cuttings, and advice.
Unfortunately, most of our friends are not gardeners, but three neighbors are. :D: I'm set up to trade some Kentucky Wonder Beans for Pumpkin Seeds with one, if she can remember which one is the heirloom. LOL (I'll give her the beans either way and probably some heirloom tomato seeds, too. I've got more than I'll be able to grow in the foreseeable future now.) Sadly, one neighbor grows hybrid peppers almost exclusively and the third would share seed, but Mom nixed the offer of eggplant and different varieties of squash. (I came "home" after my father had his major stroke.)
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
If you have a little extra space and are inclined to take the time, you can often get stable varieties by planting hybrid seeds. May take a few generations but it can be fun to see what you come up with.
Yeppers! I won a hybrid tomato plant in a raffle and we are doing just that with the seeds. This will be second generation from the hybrid parent plant. Last summer the tomatoes looked a little weird, but tasted fine. :upsidedown:
 
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