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that's like, your opinion
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
yea, luckily the park officials are trying to crack down on illegal scalping, but this whole thing just made me angry... i guess people have run out of things to make money on, now they have create a false campsite supply shortage to screw people over... its just depressing.
 

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Inglorious Deplorable
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Simple. Find a family who purchased scalped tickets for $200 and arrest them when they show up to camp.

Laws are not for crooks and thieves - they are there to set accepted norms for society. If society at large is in the market to buy scalped tickets, then there will be a scalper there to sell the tickets.


We are to blame - not the scalpers.
 

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That's "Ma'am" to you
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I agree with requiring ID. I'm amazed in this age of the Patriot Act and Homeland Security they don't already require this.
 

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that's like, your opinion
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Simple. Find a family who purchased scalped tickets for $200 and arrest them when they show up to camp.

Laws are not for crooks and thieves - they are there to set accepted norms for society. If society at large is in the market to buy scalped tickets, then there will be a scalper there to sell the tickets.


We are to blame - not the scalpers.
I can't really agree with you here since it is the campers who are using the public service for what it was intended... the scalper are the ones putting artificial economic barriers between the campers and their destinations. i think resale of the tickets/reservations should be made illegal, as they are trying to implement now. the scalpers don't own the camping sites, the park service does, and thus should be the only authority allowed to sell their reservations/services...

now your method might work as a temporary solution... it will prevent people from ever wanting to camp there and the scalpers will be the only ones buying tickets... the proceeds that the scalpers are paying will basically be going to the park service as donations, and since no one will be camping their maintenance costs will be lower than normal. then scalpers will stop buying the tickets and maybe normal folks could start up again, but then as soon as demand is back up the scalpers will get after it again. wherever there is demand, corruption will follow... punish the corrupt and supply the demand, that is my take on it.
 

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I can't really agree with you here since it is the campers who are using the public service for what it was intended... the scalper are the ones putting artificial economic barriers between the campers and their destinations.
I don't think it's artificial at all. It's just pure free-market economics at work. The scalpers are merely adjusting the price upward to meet the demand curve. If people pay $200 for a $20 camp site, then the market value is really $200.

This is exactly why I do not feel that the "free market" is the best solution for all conceivable problems, as many people believe. It's the best solution for many, many problems, but not all of them.

Yosemite is a national park, which means that the $20 charge for a camp site is at least partially subsidized by federal tax dollars (keeping it artificially low). So the low price is created through socialized program (park service), and then scalpers convert that to a for-profit situation. Pretty crappy if you ask me, but I've always heard that the free market is never wrong.
 

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Inglorious Deplorable
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.. i think resale of the tickets/reservations should be made illegal, as they are trying to implement now. the scalpers don't own the camping sites, the park service does, and thus should be the only authority allowed to sell their reservations/services...

. . .
I agree that the resale of reservations should be made illegal. I also think that both parties should pay the fine. If the buyer is let off scott free once they take possession of the reservation, then that is incentive for them to buy scalped reservations.

If a family is there on an illegal reservation, why not confiscate all their gear and fine them.

No one likes a line cutter. All I am asking is for everyone to play by the same rules. By taking the low road, we create such scalping problems.
 

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that's like, your opinion
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I don't think it's artificial at all. It's just pure free-market economics at work. The scalpers are merely adjusting the price upward to meet the demand curve. If people pay $200 for a $20 camp site, then the market value is really $200.

This is exactly why I do not feel that the "free market" is the best solution for all conceivable problems, as many people believe. It's the best solution for many, many problems, but not all of them.

Yosemite is a national park, which means that the $20 charge for a camp site is at least partially subsidized by federal tax dollars (keeping it artificially low). So the low price is created through socialized program (park service), and then scalpers convert that to a for-profit situation. Pretty crappy if you ask me, but I've always heard that the free market is never wrong.
thats not the real market demand though... the scalpers are artificially inflating the demand by buying up all the tix.

dont get me wrong, i prefer the primitive camp sites where you can just walk into the woods and snatch you up a campsite, its free but you also dont have an outhouse or latrine or anything.

as for the federal subsidy, there are also alot of people who volunteer to maintain national parks and trails (like the appalaichan trail), so i think that the volunteer work probably evens out the fed subsidy if not outweights it.
 

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that's like, your opinion
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I agree that the resale of reservations should be made illegal. I also think that both parties should pay the fine. If the buyer is let off scott free once they take possession of the reservation, then that is incentive for them to buy scalped reservations.

If a family is there on an illegal reservation, why not confiscate all their gear and fine them.

No one likes a line cutter. All I am asking is for everyone to play by the same rules. By taking the low road, we create such scalping problems.
ok, i can understand the fine on both parties, but unnecessary seizure of personal equipment is not cool at all.... not to mention potentially unconstitutional (check the 4th amendment). should they possibly get asked to leave the campsite, sure, but have their gear seized, thats going a bit too far don't you think.
 

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Survival Actual
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The Park system should require the person who reverved the camping space to be the only person who can use the camping space. That should put an end to this crap.
Yeah and now park rangers will be harassing you once a day to check your ID, which will inevitably turn into them also checking for alcohol and other prohibited items at your camp site. :(

They need to make the penalties stiffer for stupid crap like this, such as 2 years in prison for scalping a camp site and ruining the fun of camping for others.
 

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Inglorious Deplorable
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ok, i can understand the fine on both parties, but unnecessary seizure of personal equipment is not cool at all.... not to mention potentially unconstitutional (check the 4th amendment). should they possibly get asked to leave the campsite, sure, but have their gear seized, thats going a bit too far don't you think.

OK, how about a 200% ($40) fine for a $20 campsite that they already paid $200 to get.

Are they on the campsite legally or illegally? What equipment did they use to commit the crime? Yes if it is illegal, it is a crime.

What about drug dealers - do they get to keep the boat used for smuggling. Does a murder get to keep his gun? How is the family car and cook stove any different.

Harsh yes. Unconstitutional, I think not.

How simple is it - don't buy scalped camp reservations! Most posters are appalled about this abuse - but when remedies are suggested that would reduct the abuse, no one is willing to pull the trigger. Sheeple!


P.S. OK don’t confiscate, just impound everything for 48 hours.
 

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that's like, your opinion
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
OK, how about a 200% ($40) fine for a $20 campsite that they already paid $200 to get.

Are they on the campsite legally or illegally? What equipment did they use to commit the crime? Yes if it is illegal, it is a crime.

What about drug dealers - do they get to keep the boat used for smuggling. Does a murder get to keep his gun? How is the family car and cook stove any different.

Harsh yes. Unconstitutional, I think not.

How simple is it - don't buy scalped camp reservations! Most posters are appalled about this abuse - but when remedies are suggested that would reduct the abuse, no one is willing to pull the trigger. Sheeple!


P.S. OK don’t confiscate, just impound everything for 48 hours.
well a 100% certain remedy that would reduce the abuse would be to "dispatch" the scalpers, but you seem to not have made that suggestion.
 

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Maximus
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The Park system should require the person who reverved the camping space to be the only person who can use the camping space. That should put an end to this crap.
Exactly... how hard is it to match a reservation name to the permit issued?

Make the campers check in at a Station before heading to their camps. If the names don't match, then no access.

I doubt the scalpers would want to make the hike all the way out there just to check in with the families. If they do, then set a limit on how many times you can make a reservation in X amount of time.
 

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Survival Actual
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OK, how about a 200% ($40) fine for a $20 campsite that they already paid $200 to get.

Are they on the campsite legally or illegally? What equipment did they use to commit the crime? Yes if it is illegal, it is a crime.

What about drug dealers - do they get to keep the boat used for smuggling. Does a murder get to keep his gun? How is the family car and cook stove any different.

Harsh yes. Unconstitutional, I think not.

How simple is it - don't buy scalped camp reservations! Most posters are appalled about this abuse - but when remedies are suggested that would reduct the abuse, no one is willing to pull the trigger. Sheeple!


P.S. OK don’t confiscate, just impound everything for 48 hours.
Again, the criminals escape while the unsuspecting victims get punished. Sound familiar?
 

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Inglorious Deplorable
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How are you not a criminal if you buy a $200 camp reservation at a federal park from someone who is not with the park service?

Personal responsability people.

Both parties are braking the law if this is what the law is.

Who is the instigator of the crime? it is the person who cannot get a $20 camp reservation so they go out and find a scalper and are willing to pay them $200.
 

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Maximus
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How are you not a criminal if you buy a $200 camp reservation at a federal park from someone who is not with the park service?

Personal responsability people.

Both parties are braking the law if this is what the law is.
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Simple! Maybe because there is no law against it !!!!!

It may be against the "rules" but not criminal at this point. It is not like a "ticket" that has a price and value attached to it. Park entrance is a "Fee" not a ticket. It my be against the rules, but it certainly is NO CRIME.

Also, in California ticket scalping is allowed by certain sellers.
 

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thats not the real market demand though... the scalpers are artificially inflating the demand by buying up all the tix.
They aren't inflating demand. Demand is constant. What they are doing is artificially diminishing supply...which means a higher price.

Artificial scarcity is a common free market tactic. It happens all the time with things like baseball cards (they just print less of some cards) and other collectibles. And honestly, what these guys are doing is just another take on the tried-and-true mantra of "buy low, sell high".

I think it's very douchey behavior, mind you. I just don't see how it can be seen as illegal. The last thing we need is yet another law telling us what we can't do.

The Park should devise its own method of thwarting this sort of predatory, profiteering behavior. If they can't figure out a good system on their own, I'm sure they'd get lots of great ideas if they put out a "call for suggestions" press release. Wouldn't cost the tax payers a dime. ;)
 

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Improvise Adapt Overcome!
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What moron would pay $200.00 for a campsite in the first place? Seems like it would be a losing deal for the scalpers. Won't they get stuck with sites that can't rent?
 
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