When a gunman crashes through their school room door, they will be the ones who throw binders, books, chairs, and pens until they can close with and destoy, ripping eyes from sockets and jaws from heads until the threat is dead. By the sheer love of life they have learned from experiencing it as a contingency.

Poltak

Dude your kids are going to get SHOT!!

 

Let me get this right. You let your TWO YEAR OLD, fall in a pond with winter clothing on, and just stood there and watched him? To see if he would figure it out for himself?

Well I'm sorry, but you aren't getting my vote for parent of the year. That's the most assinine thing I've ever heard of. The fact that you procreated not once, but TWICE scares the bejeezus out of me.

 

I do however completely agree with what your saying. We are trying right now to have a child, and i plan on letting it play on the floor with the dogs etc.. so his/her immune system can "practice".

I dont subscribe to the whole "mother hen" attitude to parenting, and plan to let them fall, bump, bruise etc..

I remember crashing my bike, and scrapping my leg pretty bad at 11, and my friends were freaking becasue i was more concerned with my wrecked bike, and what DAD would say than my leg.

Dad bought me a dirt bike when i was 4. it was 50cc, and had training weels because i couldnt ride a bike yet. MOM was ****ed, but one of the most rewarding times in my life was trail riding with dad.

The guys I work with will take a day of because of a hang nail almost, and one 19 year old cant come in on days he didnt "get enough sleep". I told him at his age i would go out drinking till 6 am and be at work by 8, LOL.

crying babies all of them.

 

Rascal, my boy, you've got to know that I would have grabbed him when he was in danger. Of course. But not allowing a kid (or an adult) to figure their way out of a tight spot is robbery. My kid is fine. More than fine: now he knows the how and why to stay away from cold ponds.

The point is don't smother. I am very happy to not have your parent of the year award. With how parenting is these days, that is likely a good thing. You'd probably get heartburn if I told you in may we will add another happy survivor to the world. Don't get too upset.

And Ronin, we may get along yet. I think you get my over all point. But to clear up about the gunman thing: Understand that usually the best response in the face of a suprise attack (ambush) is overwhelming aggressive violence. Hence the effectiveness of my beloved Marine Corps. They've actually got an israeli spec ops dude who is hired to teach college students how to react to a suprise gunman: with overwhelming violence.

After all, if you don't teach your kids to live, aren't you teaching them to die?

Poltak

 

Rascal, my boy, you've got to know that I would have grabbed him when he was in danger. Of course. But not allowing a kid (or an adult) to figure their way out of a tight spot is robbery. My kid is fine. More than fine: now he knows the how and why to stay away from cold ponds.

The point is don't smother. I am very happy to not have your parent of the year award. With how parenting is these days, that is likely a good thing. You'd probably get heartburn if I told you in may we will ass another happy survivor to the world. Don't get to upset.

And Ronin, we may get along yet. I think you get my over all point. But to clear up about the gunman thing: Understand that usually the best response in the face of a suprise attack (ambush) is overwhelming aggressive violence. Hence the effectiveness of my beloved Marine Corps. They've actually got an israeli spec ops dude who is hired to teach college students how to react to a suprise gunman: with overwhelming violence.

After all, if you don't teach your kids to live, aren't you teaching them to die?

Poltak

Dang Poltak,

I'm thanking you every other post in this thread. All good stuff.

My kids are all older now, but they were pretty well raised the same way. They come runnin with a boo boo and the Vitamin D unit would go running to meet them. I'd have to say chill out and tell the little rascal to go rub some dirt in it and go play.

BTW, thank you for your service.

 

So how do we prepare our children? For my part, I started in their infancy. Really. While never endangering them, I challanged the notions of how one treats an infant by using faster movements, stronger motions, and more rigorous treatment. My kids learned to move more efficiently quicker. My wife and I made the agreement to never console them when their injuries were not serious. Usually, a "boo-boo" exuded the response, "That's awesome!" or, "Bite him back!" My kids, even in their young age, have a sense of pain, a respect for it, and intuitively don't seek to hurt others. I never stopped them from climbing up on chairs and swan diving off. I never needed to. When they were very young, first mobile, I allowed them to benefit from their bad decisions. You'd be shocked to learn they never injured themselves (they didn't have the ability) and now refuse to injure themselves (by deference to their experience). My kids can climb higher, run faster, walk with more balance, and escape from more containment areas (sometimes to my chagrine) than any 4 and 2 year old I have ever met. They have been shocked, bit, stung, slammed, scraped, and bruised, usually by their own chinanigans, and as they get older, their injuries are less, while their peers are more. Helicopter mothers fall into conniptions when they see my children, but I screen the defense. My kids will learn. They will live.

The other day my two year old fell into a pond with his winter gear on. I stood and watched him. He panicked, thrashed, sucked in water, but then regained his composure, righted himself, found his footing and climbed out.

He learned that because I filled his bathtub "a little too much" each time and let him learn the fear water can bring. Now he knows it and he masters it. Their survival is less and less dependent on me. As they go on, survival instincts will be automatic. When a gunman crashes through their school room door, they will be the ones who throw binders, books, chairs, and pens until they can close with and destoy, ripping eyes from sockets and jaws from heads until the threat is dead. By the sheer love of life they have learned from experiencing it as a contingency.

Poltak

I hope if you hurt one your kids or god forbid one of them is hurt fatally durring one of your lessons they do a search of your computer and find this post and you end up doing time for neglect. You sound like you are training future serial killers not survivalists.

 

The greatest scandal in American history is that we, as a people, decided to stop teaching our children to achieve excellence. This struck me as a child, when I saw accomplished doctors, captains of industry, professors, business owners, and others who had accomplished very rewarding lives through a fantastic work ethic and shrewd business practice raising children who were useless nincompoops. Even at a very young age, it was apparent that the only legacy that would last was not their businesses and disciples, but their children. By this measure, these very successful people were complete and abject failures.

The 20th century in Western civilization was the first time in history that a separate subculture ever arose for children. Childhood has, at every other point in human history, been the time when children are able to practice for real life under supervision that affords them lesser consequences. Instead, in America, it has become a time when children are entitled to become complacent and remain ignorant.

The downside of this new philosophy is evident all around us. Look at college students who leave home and, for the first time ever, have to live life without being pampered. Between having nobody to do simple things for them (like laundry) and nobody to tell them what to do and when, they cease to function, and at the same time, spend an inordinate amount of time getting drunk and failing out. Or consider the new applicant in the workforce who has no sense of responsibility or work ethic.

The point is that failing is an important part of learning. Being put in a position where it appears that you have to help yourself in order to avoid consequences is another important part of learning. Free exploration is another important part of learning.

The existing public school system of mass rote memorization was invented in Prussia to train children to be obedient automatons for factory work. It accomplishes that well. But even if we did have factories still in America, is that the life you want for your children? Is that the philosophy you want for your children? Where they look to authority for all of the answers?

I allow my children the same latitudes as the OP. I am amazed at the lateral thinking, outside-the-box solutions they come up with. Yes, they get bruises. Yes, they get scratches. Yes, they get the bejeezus scared out of them when they get themselves into a situation and I stand back to see if they are capable of getting themselves out of it. But they rarely disappoint, and I am always there if they are in over their heads.

 

(Deleted by author)

 

My parents did not raise me how you described, yet I know to act with insane violence if someone comes at me intending to kill me and do not go near cold ponds or walk on the ice.

My son is 16 months old, he climbs stairs, yes he has fallen a few times; but he knows to pay attention now. We certainly do not coddle him.

Parenting is definately a fine line--balance is the key. You still have to show love. I know of a man who does not allow his children to cry because of pain, only for emotional reasons. The kid was running, slammed into the corner of a dresser, blood was shooting out everyone and the kid didn't cry. He knew if he cried he would get spanked. That is a little out of balance in my opinion. But, he is not my kid; I'll raise my kid how I want and hope no one interferes, especially the government.

 

He knew if he cried he would get spanked. That is a little out of balance in my opinion.

Yeah, that dad misunderstands. Sounds like that young boy will have some issues. Like I said: embrace life and all it is offering. Tears are as natural in Marines as they are in kids in the right place.

 

Gee, Todesking, That sounds like a pretty distopian place you live in, where the experienced and able are serial-killers. You missed the part where my kids don't hurt others because they know how it feels, and not because I did it, but because they jumped off the deck or slipped on the floor and felt what pain feels like. Pain sucks, so why add it to another? Only the truly niave try to hurt others. But that is sociopathy in the new Happy-Feely-Goody world, I guess.

You need to be aware that revealing in dreams of another persons misfortune is not a healthy psychology. You also need to learn to read. You missed that my kids don't get hurt because they understand how to be safe. What gives me the right to rob my sons of thier ability to survive? Would I be so self-loathing as to not want them to be as strong and able as I am? Learning to deal with fear without freaking out is what seperates people who are here now and people who....well aren't any more.

Go take a survival class. Learn about fear training. Humans used to hold courage and valor as positive traits. It's too hard to earn, these days, granted, but it is still pretty cool to be confident and calm while everyone around you looses their minds.

I hate politicians and men who make the ability for others to live contingent on their presence. That is the greatest evil in the world to me. I know and understand that the Taliban may take my life soon. My sons may be without me then, but they will be able to live because they were raised to.

All: embrace life and what it offers... don't hide from it; learn to live it.

Poltak

 

Give me a break. You seem to almost enjoy putting your kids at risk. I so much would love to sit here and tell you how much I really think about you but that would be violation. That and I think you crave attention so I will no longer communicate with you since I would be feeding a troll's ego.

P/S The only thing I fear is you having more children to abuse. I wish I knew your real name and address so I could call child protective services. I am sure they would not find your child raising lessons very normal.

 

Modern society is a hoax. The pampered experience that most all of us have experienced for the last few generations is a historical lull.

The other day my two year old fell into a pond with his winter gear on. I stood and watched him. He panicked, thrashed, sucked in water, but then regained his composure, righted himself, found his footing and climbed out.

"woulda-shoulda-coulda" will be your childrens' grave. Ductus exemplo. Go out and live. Don't survive. Live.

Poltak

I agree with the first statement completely.
As for the two year old in the pond I'm sure you were right there at the water's edge and not across the yard, right ? While the event you describe could be a valuable lesson a little reassurance to the readers would result in more respect for your actions.

As for your closing statement you're spot on. Best to take life head on and live to the fullest.

Dude your kids are going to get SHOT!!

I would rather know my son died fighting to live than be executed.

Of course I would much prefer neither ever happens.

 

What kind of a person can stand there and watch a 2 year-old after they fall in a pond and 'sucked in water'? Would you have let the kid die?

Either you have serious issues or you are just trolling.

 

Gimme a break. I'm sure many people have had the same experiance, but when I was a kid, dad put a couple of "floaters" on my arms, and tossed me into the pool. Thats how i learned to swim. You know what. I can swim for ever and not get tired. I can dive very far and stay under for over 3 minuts, and i SMOKE.

Before that I refused to even touch water unless it was my bath.

Hey Thanks Dad, for doing what needed doing, and throwing me into the pool. Better to be forced to learn than be like a bunch of people i know, who cant swim, and would DIE, ina boat accident

 

I don't get the outrage over the pond thing.
That's how I and all my brothers learned to swim.
Dad got in the pond. Mom threw your little ass in there and said "swim boy".

You floundered around for a few seconds and swallowed some water.
You figured it out and swam the 10 feet or so to Dad.
He let you catch your breath, said "good job, now swim back to Mom".

OK, lesson over. Little Chin can swim now.

The end.

PS- it's also how my own kids learned to swim. Although it was in a pool.

 

Were you 2 with your winter gear on?

 

Today, kids are spoiled and pampered more than ever in the past. Teaching a child to be a bit tougher, a bit less concerned with a bit of dirt on their hands and learning to not panic is a very good thing. Things aren't going to be all peachy for long the way the country is going. Kids today worry more about having the latest and coolest clothes and gadgets than in learning how to fish, garden and play using their own imagination.
Part of the reason is because some parents just don't understand the value, another reason is that so many are prepared to cry "child abuse". I like the idea of teaching kids how to LIVE instead of protecting them so they just are ready to die.
A healthy child will go and rough house and play, investigate things, get themselves in trouble and find a way out of it themselves. A loving parent understands that and allows a certain freedom for that growth.:thumb:

 

Excellent post.

 

Parents are funny!

 

Ok, guys, girls!!! Honestly? Are you people being serious? Of course I was there, within ten feet. I told him, "Ok, remember how to get out. I can't save you if you are alone." That is when he calmed down and corrected himself. He climbed out, ie, saved himself! It seems like some people here would be more satisfied reading about the two year old who drowned in a pond than the kid who learns how to save himself. Why did I do it? Because I have a creek no more than 100 feet from my back door. Shall I buy a military drone to watch him day and night to make sure I can always jump to his rescue? It can't be done. Why not make him self-reliant?

As for you guys who are so ****ed off at living happy children that you wish I would get arrested or would die or that my kids die so I can "get it", Ghandi had a great thing going with that whole non-participation bit. Feel free to pummel all of us through your silent opposition. It'll hurt us more than you know!


The rest of you life loving good people, let's steer this: It has always been a question in my mind of the utility of a man getting really skilled in survival, yet his family knows nothing. What is the best method to teach rather non-interested people to live normally but to survive dynamically if it comes down to it? For my kids, it is letting them learn that, yes, if you don't secure your footing on a fence when climbing, you will fall, or no, you can't pull a dog's ears without getting fingers snapped. My wife was initially slow to adapt to this, but through my sneaky and subversive offering to her disaster novels/movies to view and her being able to see how far less injury prone and more independent and confident her kids are compared to other kids, she's come to value that, "Hey, 'Hotel Rawanda'/"Alas Babylon"/"The Road" could possibly happen here... what would I do?! right now, today, i would be dead!" She even came to me with our .40 handgun and asked me to teach her to shoot accurately, at a moving target, on the move. I am pretty sure that is the definition of a turn on.

So, how do you guys help people see the value of being of value?


Poltak

 

Wow, you certainly do take creative license with what people are saying here. I agree with almost everything you posted...then came the part about your kid and the pond.

Point is, you let your 2 year-old child 'suck water' and thrash around and then you can't understand why that upsets some rational people. I think maybe there is a slight disconnect there.

 

Poltak,

I can only tell you how I was raised and how, with some resistance from the vitamin D, I have tried to raise my children.

We were raised to do things ourselves. We had chores. Every member of the family had to help in order for things to work.

I began clearing the dinner table when I was about 4. When I was 8, my little brother was 4. So, he got my job and I got the doing the dishes job.

If you were hungry in between meals, Mom had taught you how to make yourself a snack, etc...

By the time we were early teens, I and my brothers knew stuff.

We could cook, clean, do laundry, sew, start the fire in the fire place or light the grill, cut firewood, pick wild fruit, cut grass, build a tree fort, fish, hunt, rig up a nice rope swing for swimming, kill a snake with a shovel, go in the woods without stepping in groundhog holes, etc...

We had been camping many times and knew how to keep our stuff dry, to find a good campsite that wasn't to rocky or full of roots.

I felt things were important things to know, so I have raised my children the same way.

 

Poltak, I agree with what you are saying as far as kids learning from experience, but I need to know is this pond a yard pond that's a foot and a half deep? or do you mean a POND?

 

My daughter has recently learned about "hot thing" from grabbing a light bulb.
As for the electricity, yeah I had enough of telling her not to touch the dog collar before I got the batteries out and zap!

She lived, shes fine and now she's educated.

 

You sound like a psycho. Actually, more like a sadist. I can picture you standing at the foot of the stairs with a satisfied smile as your 18-month old kid comes tumbling down.

Heads up, parents don't stop their kids from jumping off things because they might cry. They stop them from jumping off things because they might break their arm or neck.

I'm curious... If you skip all these opportunities to comfort your kids when they're in pain, when do you comfort them? When do you show them that you care for them and are there to help?

 

There seems to be an interesting dichotomy between those who see their children with superficial bumps and bruises and rush to tell them how terribly they've been wounded and need mommy's help on one hand, and those who point out to their children that bumps and bruises are a natural consequence of life on the other.

When my 8 y/o was 3, she jumped off the bed and whacked her arm. My wife ran to get some ice, preparing for the inevitable gush of tears. I smiled and giggled and said, "That wasn't too bright." Ever since then, whenever she gets a minor bump or scratch, she giggles and says, "Oops, that wasn't too bright," and continues on.

 

Exactly Hawkburn

It's not that you want to teach your kids some "life lessons" It's that you let a 2 year old, who has very limited comprehension skills, flail around in a pond while you sat by!! What does that really teach him? That YOU aren't dependable. The man who should be his rock in life, doesn't give a rats backside about him. I think you are damaging your child WAY more than you are helping him. WAY more.

If your kid was 5 or 6, knew how to swim and it wasn't the dead of winter, MAYBE I could see this. maybe. But what you described here definitely borders on neglect if not downright abuse. If you don't want to coddle your child's every little boo boo, fine. But 2 year olds are way WAY too young for this kind of training. My daughter will be 3 this week and the thought of this happening to her makes me sick inside. I tell her all the time to walk it off, or you're fine sweetie. But your damn skippy I'm going to tell her not to throw herself off the roof because she thinks she wants to be a bird. That's why kids HAVE parents, to keep them from killing themselves until they are old enough to have some reason of their own!!

But I'm a Mother, maybe that's the difference. I can't see many women letting their kid flop around in a pond at age 2. I'm sure some woman on here will chew me out for saying it, but I don't know any Moms that would do this.

 

I think you guys are over reacting to the OP with regard to the pond thing. And it may have been phrased to incite that response.

All I am saying is, I fell through the ice more than one time. I know how to get out. I don't know when the first time it happened was. I may have been 2 and my dad was standing by the bank waiting to see if I figured it out. Either, I don't remember how I learned to get out. I just know how. If I fell through when I was 2 and my dad let me figure it out, standing by all the while to save my little butt if I didn't. Well, the event was not traumatic enough that I remember it.

It should also be noted that the OP is from Eastern NC, not a lot of thick dangerous ice in them parts.

Just sayin.

 

You know if my ten year old son got lost while hikeing he could get back to base camp by reading his map and useing his compass, he would know which mushroom he could eat and which would make him sick, he knows how to shot a gun and the effects of it. But he did not learn this by my dumping him in a forest and saying get out, he knows because I taught him to read a map and compass, I didn't give him a poisions mushroom and say "well now you know not to eat that" I taught him about things as a responsable parent would and should do without endangering his life. You don't burn a child to teach them it's hot,you don't let them injure themself's and sit back and say "well did you learn something?" Your job as a parent is to PROTECT your children and teach them without hurting them. Yes it's a hard world, but you knew that before you brought children into this world, if you didn't want the resposability of takeing care of your kids, you shouldn't have had them! Teach them POLTAK that there are consaquences to their actions but don't sit back and let them get into that situation in the first place--that's why you are the parent and they are the child.

 

I think today's parents are a little to over-motherly with the kids. My wife, who grew up as a southern GA tomboy is WAY too overbearing with my stepson who is 11. He get's a little scratch and she has the med kit out and saying "mommy will fix it" I try to toughen the boy up with "manly" things. Got him away from the xbox and out back fishing in the n'hood pond. He ran a treble hood into his thumb this past weekend and his 1st instinct was to run to mom to get her to fix it. I told him no, man up and pull it out as I handed him the needle nose. After a a few min. of whining....he did it. I think one of the main problems with the kids today is they have the Playstation/Xbox and 300 channels of mind control.

 

Ok, excellent... the fever pitch is dying down. Time for discussion. Folks, I spend much time discussing with my kids. They are smart, able and happy people. Now I likely will offend people with this line, but our animal instinct to survive is with us before the intellect to understand why we want to survive. That is why a 2 year old will back away from a heat source. When my kid fell into the pond I was some 50 feet away. It was at a fish farm, the pond has angled floors to aid in escape. When he tumbled in you better believe I was there in a flash, but then I held off. I knew he knew how to right himself and he would. You have to understand that the difference between death and life in a survival situation is your ability to do what you know to do, making the terror subside. And that is exactly what he did. He braced himself on the pond floor, face under water, and stood up, looked around with a look on his face that said, "Well, that sucked". Had he tried to keep his face above water, he would have drown. And to some of you I am the bad guy because he is becoming more and more drown-proof? Guess how close he has come to natural water since? He has no interest in icey water. Go figure.

A lot of you guys are pretty radical. The reality is that teaching along with experience is the key. I guess some of your parents dropped you off in the woods blind-folded with a toaster and a blow torch or whatever. That's not my way. When it comes to young kids, experience is the only lesson. And what I have observed through my style is that since my kids were allowed to reap the benefits of their decisions early, they actually avoid doing dangerous things. They have no reality-disconnect. They know for a fact that jumping off the deck will hurt. So why do it? I don't understand why some of you would like to bubble-boy your kids till they are able to comprehend the logic of being safe. At what? 8 years old? My kids friends do dumb stuff all the time. It is a constant stress to watch them because they simply have no sense of life. Why? They have no concept of cause and effect. Their parents complain of their dangerous behavior all the time. And the parents always save them last minute. And this will go on and on till the kids are actually able to kill themselves. As a young thing, my kids could not kill themselves. Of course you put a stair guard on or whatever. Do we now? We don't need to. They kids know to not hurt themselves.

 

Ok, excellent... the fever pitch is dying down. Time for discussion.

So the point was to get people to react to the first post I take it then?