[Jorge_Banner]

What exactly is illegal immigration then? I wonder what about the current immigration policy that makes so many want to be illegal, rather than go through the proper system?

Easy, people are told to play by the rules and the rules say "you can't play".

OTOH, a rational society should have no problem with competition, handouts are the problem, IMMO, health care, education and a lot of other stuff that Americans are made to pay by the government through taxes and then the benefits are given to those that should pay for their own, not have it given to them for free. Socialism is the problem. American socialism, peculiar as it is.

 

[Jorge_Banner]

I agree deeply with your second paragraph.

The first however isn't as helpful: it is the equivalent of saying its illegal because its against the law. It is a tautology.

Why in a truly free society would any immigration ever be illegal?

My first paragraph was an answer to your question "what about the current immigration policy that makes so many want to be illegal". They choose to be illegal because they have no other option (except, of course, not going to America).

 

[Jorge_Banner]

I agree deeply with your second paragraph.

The first however isn't as helpful: it is the equivalent of saying its illegal because its against the law. It is a tautology.

Why in a truly free society would any immigration ever be illegal?

In a truly free society no immigration would be illegal. But then in a truly free society no even one penny would be taken away by force from one man to give to another because that other has a "need".

 

[Jorge_Banner]

Wow, this has been discussed a million times already...

The point is, the illegals came here illegally, knowing damn well what they were doing.

They showed a blatant disregard for Americas laws.

So by that logic, we should let bank robbers and sex-offenders go then, and make robbing and rape legal? That way it wouldn't be a problem?

Same principle.

And also, when you talk about competition, competition is only healthy, as long as that competition is being regulated.

For example, if I do a job for 10 bucks an hour, but Pedro does it for 8, but then Suzy Q does it for 4.50 an hour, that basically eliminates any competition. It might be OK for a Mexican to do a job for way less then what an American would do it for, because the chances are he/she's living in a home shared with another Mexican family and most of her money is being sent down to the rest of her family in Mexico.

Unlike an American citizen where he has American sized taxes to pay, American sized house payments to make and American sized food bill all by himself, usually providing for a wife/partner and their children.

Get my drift?

I'm all for helping those in need, but not when they knowingly break the law. In fact, you're called an accomplice if you do so.

SOLIDUS

You know, I think we are mixing two different problems here. One is the legality / illegality of immigration and whether this is moral or not. The illegality is not in question, the illegal immigrants are illegal. That can't be discussed. Question is if the laws that make them so are moral or not.

The other problem that IMMO creates the first problem is America's socialism that creates the unfairness of American taxes going to the illegals through so many outlets as heath care, education and the like.

As far as competition goes, why would an American willing to pay for a job have to pay 10 to one guy when somebody else is willing to make the same job for 5?

We should separate the problems here. One problem is that immigration should never be made illegal in a rational and free society. But then a rational and free society should never take money away by force from one man to give to another. Then, let competition reign.

 

[Jorge_Banner]

I agree with you Jorge. That is why I am wondering why people are willing to point the finger at the people who take advantage of this situation here, rather that the inherent flaws of the system that give rise to it in the first place.

First because it's easier, second, because they are kind of socialist themselves (with all due respect).

You see, in a free and rational society, another mouth to feed is not a problem for you; your food won't be take away by force. In a socialist society another mouth to feed is a little death for you. But then socialism is based on death. OTOH, Capitalism is based on Life. And Capitalists worry not about immigration nor about competition.

America is the least socialist country in the world. You don't see Mexicans trying to get into Cuba.

 

[Jorge_Banner]

I agree with you on that.



Well, that's why we have minimum wage. We have minimum wage for two reasons. A.) To make sure all employees get a fair pay and B.) To limit the competition.

Competition is great, as long as it doesn't cost someone their house and future.

But competition can also be very unfair. It can make people work for way less then they are entitled to, and it can can also make life very difficult, and help keep the poor poor, and the rich rich.

And if everyone is going to work for 4 bucks an hour, we're going to need to cut down big time on taxes, cost of food, housing etc.

The reasons illegals work for so little is because they have no choice in the matter. Also because like I said, most live in a shared housing environment. (Where they'll share all the expenses.) They also send the dollar back to Mexico where the dollar is still relatively high.

Do you see the point I'm trying to make here?

We may be.

I'm glad we agree

Hmm... Each country has it's laws, Mexico isn't any different. (In fact, their immigration laws are 100x worse.) If it was immoral, then why would each and every country already have the same basic law? Wouldn't someone have changed it after a few decades? (Hell, they change everything else...)

Thats currently the best answer I can give.


SOLIDUS

“Minimum wage”, “limit the competition”, “Competition is great, as long as”, “competition can also be very unfair”, “less then they are entitled to”, “make life very difficult”, “keep the poor poor, and the rich rich”, are all the words of socialism. In order for you to have a society based on those concepts you need to deprive someone of his freedom.

I’m only going to go into one example: “minimum wage”. In a free society if you want to work you look for work and you either accept or reject what anyone offers you. You want it? take it. You don’t want it? move over, somebody will come that will want it. That’s what a free market is. America being the least socialist country in the world is still a socialist country. When you are discussing with a prospective employer the conditions of your employment who has the right to get in between you two and tell your employer he can’t offer you less than such and such amount and to tell you you can’t accept any less? What if your employer to be wants to offer you half the “minimum wage” and you want to accept it? Does that make you what? Criminals? You call that “the land of the free”?

And competition is competition. If it is unfair there’s Cuba. There should be no competition in Cuba only orders from a party chieftain. Problem is people want to have their cake and eat it, too. Sorry. Look around. America is drowning in socialism. And the immigration problem is the result of this socialism.

Your problem is not Mexicans it’s the American government. It is not the Mexicans that are taking your money by force. It’s the IRS.

But hey, way things are looking soon you guys might very well have a socialist President. They you'll get a taste of it raw.

 

[Jorge_Banner]

especially when you see the racism that exists between Mexicos lighter northern people and darker southern people. the Norteno vs Saureno fight ain't just gangs

It's "Norteño" vs. "Sureño".