[bluewater]

Hi all,

I'm interested in learning from those of you who have tried canning in retort bags. I would like to hear about your experiences and would appreciate some productive feedback about my first time with this. In the canner at the moment are 10 retort packages of smoked salmon (about 2.5 fish). So far, the canner is behaving just fine except for two hiccups that, in hindsight, I could have prevented. And I think one could result in fails. This first round is exploratory!

Please note that I'm new here, and I searched my topic a bit in the forums already. There ARE a number of posts that attempt to discuss this, but they all seemed to devolve into unproductive snarky talk. So I'm being actively sexist and posting to the Ladies Section in hopes of some grown-up discussion around the trend toward this kind of food processing at home.

I've researched this a lot--there is a ton to read on the subject--seen a lot of anecdotal evidence and feel comfortable giving this a try. I have 20 large red salmon that must be processed quickly and in such a way that it doesn't require refrigeration. Our local fish processors are limited to vacuum packing or straight up canning in jars, or else they ship it out to have it retort processed and returned. I've canned a lot of food in jars already, but given the size of my canner (an All-American 910, the smallest one that holds only 4 quart jars or 5 pints stacked with 5 half pints) and the weight in glass I've already processed, I wanted to try retort canning to have less mass to store. Weight is the main issue, as is not having a ton of empty jars on hand after the food is eaten. So after a lot of research, I bought 100 quart-sized retort pouches (not the same as mylar bags) and the Optimum Hot Jaw Heat Sealer from these people.

Following the general consensus about how to approach this, I did the following:

• 
  packaged no more than a half of one fillet (which had been smoked and then refrigerated because I ran out of time) in each bag;
• because the salmon pieces were too large to fit through a canning funnel, I just slid them in and then wiped the mouth of the bag clean with vinegar;
• I pressed out excess air and sealed the bag as prescribed for 3 seconds with the sealer. It gave a nice crimp (though I wish it was a bit wider than the bag, because it was a challenge to be very precise when the widths of bag and sealer are so close);
• I loaded 10 bags into the canner, not jammed in there but not loose either (apparently this is because once done, they must cool without room to expand too much);
• Began processing as per regular canning procedures.

So that's where I am. The hiccups I mentioned above are:

1. The bags extended a bit too much in to the domed lid of my canner, and so they folded over. The wait for the canner to exhaust air was taking too long and I realized the tops of the bags could be blocking the vent. So I opened the canner and used scissors to snip an inch off the top of each bag.
2. About 30 minutes into processing, the vents sputtered and began seeping water, and this keeps happening if I go even just a tiny bit high on my pressure. I'm pretty sure I added too much water because I for some reason felt I should add more than I do with the jars. Apparently wrong! And now I'm soaking up the overflow. I'm worried too much water could cause fails.

And so a few questions for those of you who've done this:

• Has anyone used this particular sealer? If so, any comments in general, or specifically about the width?
• Apart from water all over the stovetop, is there any reason to be concerned about too much water in the canner?
• Once the processing is done and I remove the lid and let the bags cool in place, how can you tell if a bag fails? With the jar, the lid doesn't "ping" but with the bag...?
• Is there anything I haven't considered?
• Regarding sterilization, is there anything special I should be doing with the bags? It would not be efficient or even very effective to wash and boil the bags. I just filled them and wiped the mouth with vinegar to ensure a good seal. Do the packages of retort bags come pre-sterilized?

That last item is the one thing that I really want addressed.

Please tell me what you've processed in retort packages, how it turned out, successes, failures, what home equipment you used, etc. Thanks in advance for sharing your experience!

 

[CBP]

Hi all,

I'm interested in learning from those of you who have tried canning in retort bags. I would like to hear about your experiences and would appreciate some productive feedback about my first time with this. In the canner at the moment are 10 retort packages of smoked salmon (about 2.5 fish). So far, the canner is behaving just fine except for two hiccups that, in hindsight, I could have prevented. And I think one could result in fails. This first round is exploratory!

Please note that I'm new here, and I searched my topic a bit in the forums already. There ARE a number of posts that attempt to discuss this, but they all seemed to devolve into unproductive snarky talk. So I'm being actively sexist and posting to the Ladies Section in hopes of some grown-up discussion around the trend toward this kind of food processing at home.

I've researched this a lot--there is a ton to read on the subject--seen a lot of anecdotal evidence and feel comfortable giving this a try. I have 20 large red salmon that must be processed quickly and in such a way that it doesn't require refrigeration. Our local fish processors are limited to vacuum packing or straight up canning in jars, or else they ship it out to have it retort processed and returned. I've canned a lot of food in jars already, but given the size of my canner (an All-American 910, the smallest one that holds only 4 quart jars or 5 pints stacked with 5 half pints) and the weight in glass I've already processed, I wanted to try retort canning to have less mass to store. Weight is the main issue, as is not having a ton of empty jars on hand after the food is eaten. So after a lot of research, I bought 100 quart-sized retort pouches (not the same as mylar bags) and the Optimum Hot Jaw Heat Sealer from these people.

Following the general consensus about how to approach this, I did the following:

• 
  packaged no more than a half of one fillet (which had been smoked and then refrigerated because I ran out of time) in each bag;
• because the salmon pieces were too large to fit through a canning funnel, I just slid them in and then wiped the mouth of the bag clean with vinegar;
• I pressed out excess air and sealed the bag as prescribed for 3 seconds with the sealer. It gave a nice crimp (though I wish it was a bit wider than the bag, because it was a challenge to be very precise when the widths of bag and sealer are so close);
• I loaded 10 bags into the canner, not jammed in there but not loose either (apparently this is because once done, they must cool without room to expand too much);
• Began processing as per regular canning procedures.

So that's where I am. The hiccups I mentioned above are:

1. The bags extended a bit too much in to the domed lid of my canner, and so they folded over. The wait for the canner to exhaust air was taking too long and I realized the tops of the bags could be blocking the vent. So I opened the canner and used scissors to snip an inch off the top of each bag.
2. About 30 minutes into processing, the vents sputtered and began seeping water, and this keeps happening if I go even just a tiny bit high on my pressure. I'm pretty sure I added too much water because I for some reason felt I should add more than I do with the jars. Apparently wrong! And now I'm soaking up the overflow. I'm worried too much water could cause fails.

And so a few questions for those of you who've done this:

• Has anyone used this particular sealer? If so, any comments in general, or specifically about the width?
• Apart from water all over the stovetop, is there any reason to be concerned about too much water in the canner?
• Once the processing is done and I remove the lid and let the bags cool in place, how can you tell if a bag fails? With the jar, the lid doesn't "ping" but with the bag...?
• Is there anything I haven't considered?
• Regarding sterilization, is there anything special I should be doing with the bags? It would not be efficient or even very effective to wash and boil the bags. I just filled them and wiped the mouth with vinegar to ensure a good seal. Do the packages of retort bags come pre-sterilized?

That last item is the one thing that I really want addressed.

Please tell me what you've processed in retort packages, how it turned out, successes, failures, what home equipment you used, etc. Thanks in advance for sharing your experience!

Saving quote--I'm hoping your post stays up. Interesting.

 

[CBP]

I can honestly say that I didn't know this could be done and I've been canning a lot of years.

A couple of things. I did a quick read up and they suggested not using any more bags than you would use jars. I think that simply relates to making sure all of the product heats through thoroughly and equally.

No ping -- Just because you have a "ping", doesn't mean the food in jars was processed correctly. A jar could still seal and not have been processed for an adequate amount of time. My thought is that if its not leaking and the vacuum seal is intact....it has pinged I guess.

As long as you maintained adequate pressure, I don't think the extra water would hurt. In my early canning days, I definitely over-watered the canner, being concerned it would boil dry.

Sterilizing -- the pressure cooking alone will sterilize the bags.

If I were you, I would freeze the bulk of that fish for now, you can process it later. You've done a test run, but I wouldn't risk ruining all of it. I can't think of any way to decide if this is done properly except the sniff/taste test. Every so many days, test a package. While this isn't particularly common method, it isn't an unknown doing a google search. Probably not USDA approved, but some of us do some canning that wouldn't be either.

That's the only thoughts I can offer. Interesting idea, glad you brought it forward. Maybe some of the other gals can offer something more.

Check in from time to time and let us know if you're still healthy!

 

[Chrysalis]

This is a 5 star thread! I have never heard of doing this at home and it's a great idea. I want to know how long it lasts and if the thickness of the mylar makes a difference in safety.

Your post might get moved but don't feel bad, it's a really good one. Thanks for sharing it with us! :thumb:

 

[bluewater]

Thanks and reporting back in post-processing...

Thanks CBP and Gypsy, I appreciate your comments and I can now report back about my first attempt. Yes, in the initial write-up I also read about using the same number of retort bag as you would jars, but continued reading indicated that you don't want to give the bags too much room to expand. My canner holds just four quart jars. But 10 retort bags fit in there nicely without cramming and I could see once I removed the lid why the directions were amended. The bags were all balloony and wanted to keep expanding. I'd read it's important to either leave them in their somewhat compressed/contained space to cool (an alternative says that once they can be handled one may immerse them in an ice bath to stop the expansion). So I did this and after about 30 minutes, the cooling created a vacuum that sucked the bags snugly around the fish inside.

CBP, thanks also for the comment about sterilization. Customer service confirmed this too. And we will certainly do the sniff/taste test, as this is new to us and we want to tread carefully. I think we make take it a step further and not eat the same meal the first couple of times just to be sure!

More about my first attempt. What I've learned:

• The bags look great, all sucked in around the food like you'd expect in MREs.
• A few bags are questionable, and this is directly related to the comment I made about the sealer being too close in width to the quart bag. A query of customer service resulted in a very quick and helpful reply, and it seems I should crimp it twice across the mouth to ensure a full-width seal. I really don't know why I didn't think of this and just do it myself. And so I have a few bags that seem to have a couple millimeters of gap--though it's hard to tell!
• Trimming the tops off the bags was a good idea (only necessary if you have a canner that's just a bit too short to fully accomodate the bags, like mine). Not just because it would otherwise interfere with proper venting, but I realize too that it's important to encourage steam flow all around the bags, and folded-over tops would not help.
• After the bags cooled and sucked in around the food, I removed them from the canner. Here's where I'm faced with a conundrum about the ones that may not be fully sealed. Since I didn't do that double crimp across the mouth, I think there may be a few questionable bags that will just have to be eaten, or reprocessed in new bags now that I know the trick to ensure a proper seal. The problem is that I can't tell for sure which ones haven't completely sealed! None are clearly leaking. I've washed them well and still can't really tell. Apart from segregating the ones that are less tight than the others, I don't know for sure how tell. I may try submerging them in water and watching for bubbles, or standing them upside-down in a rack to see if I can detect any fish oil...maybe the dog can tell me! In any case, I don't anticipate this to be a problem now that I know the sealing trick.

I now have the second batch just coming off the stovetop and the process was much more streamlined this time around:

• I filled the bags and filed them in my dish-drying rack to keep them upright and orderly.
• Then once they were full, I systematically wiped inside the mouths of the pouches, first with a dry paper towel, then with a vinegar-moistened one.
• Then I crimped them twice with the heat sealer, covering the full width of the pouch and overlapping a few inches in the middle. No longer at all concerned that the seal didn't have full coverage. And it also gave me the opportunity between seals to further expel air from the bag.
• Then I trimmed the extra inch off the top of the bag, staggered them in the canner, and poured a hot pan of water over them. Closed it up, and processing per standards.

I really do hope people find this useful and this generates more discussion. It's like anything new, people are nervous about change and this process is not so documented via extension services, so it's natural to question it. But wow, if we can apply the scientific method to retort packaging, it really is fantastic! Once the process is perfected, the only major drawback I can think of is that the packaging is not reusable (although I suppose the pouches could be washed well and used as one would a regular mylar bag, to store dry foods or household items...like batteries). And they are most likely not recyclable. Glass prevails on both of these. But when weight and fragility really matter, I really like the promise of retort packaging.

I remain interested in productive back and forth about our varying experiences using different canners and retort equipment. I'm sharing the instruction sheet for anyone who may be interested in seeing it.

And CBP, I will try to remember to check back in to report a heartbeat after a summer of smoked salmon consumption!

 

[CBP]

I'm glad its going well! As for the ones less sealed -- I wonder if they would do something like "bulge" as cans do. I suppose the spoilage rate would also depend on how "smoked" the salmon was. I've seen some that was very lightly smoked and some that was quite dry. I imagine the smell would be off as well.

Honestly, I was a bit freaked out when I started canning meat in jars. Something strange about it, I guess. I'll admit I've never done fish! A since passed elderly friend of mine used to tell of the days she canned salmon -- with a bit of ketchup for color. Maybe I'll catch some salmon tomorrow and give it a go.

Ya learn something everyday! Thanks again for the info!

 

[bluewater]

As for the ones less sealed -- I wonder if they would do something like "bulge" as cans do.

I understand this is exactly what happens when a pouch goes bad! But right out of the canner, I just can't tell. From that first batch, they all appear sealed, but some have a "tighter" vacuum than others, so I wonder if that's an indicator. And some look like they have just a tiny gap between the seal and the sideseam of the pouch, where my eyeballing of the heat sealing crimp was off a bit (this was before I learned it's okay to crimp more than once across the top to get the entire width of the pouch).

But it turns out I spoke too soon when I said I felt better about the second batch. Pressure is finally down, and I just opened the lid. More than half of the bags failed at the top seal! Argh! I don't at all know why. The ONLY think I did differently was to crimp the heat sealer twice across the top. I've inquired with the nice customer service woman to see if she has any ideas. It made me realize that a Troubleshooting Tips list for retort processing would be highly useful. I'd love a central knowledge base for all of this...

Including a photo that points out two of the failed pouches. Soooo bummed because I don't know what to do differently on the next batch.

 

[lynxx]

Thanks for your kitchen lab experiments, newbie. The instructions on the sales site were very unclear about when and how to seal the retorts. If you seal the packs and then heat, do they burst? If you seal the packs after heating, what if a bacteria falls in? Ordinary jars seal as they cool, "sterilization" in canning means just be as clean as possible. Thanks again.

 

[bluewater]

...unclear about when and how to seal the retorts. If you seal the packs and then heat, do they burst? If you seal the packs after heating, what if a bacteria falls in? Ordinary jars seal as they cool, "sterilization" in canning means just be as clean as possible.

Thanks! Important to treat retort pouches as much like jars as possible: add food, clean the mouth, top with a lid (i.e. seal the pouches) and process. The pouches expand with pressure changes and balloon out if given too much room, so it could potentially breach a seam. When you remove the lid and they begin to cool, the pouch relaxes and then tightens around the food to make a nice snug fit (i.e. like jars sealing as they cool). Looks just like an MRE.

This makes me think. In reference to my fail mentioned in the previous post, if you look at the photo, I just can't believe with 10 bags in the canner that there was still so much room that it would cause the pouches to expand and split... but maybe there was. I need to think about this. The "tightened up" final product should only be an inch or so thick, so perhaps I really do need to cram more than 10 into my canner. The instructions seem to indicate too much room could result in a side-seam fail, but mine were all across the top. So... something to think about. I can report back after batch three.

 

[emh1701]

This is interesting. I wonder if the process could be used on other fish? I'm Minnesotan so the only salmon we get here tends to be in grocery stores, but walleye and northerns are common in bigger lakes around the state. Sunfish are common in some of the city lakes and usually families with kids go for those, but it's still a possible food source.

 

[bluewater]

Thought I should add a follow up now that several months have passed. I notice a mention over here of my post and it seems that a follow-up might be welcome!

When it was all said and done, I canned my smoked salmon in 10 batches of 10 retort bags. A hundred bags in all. It was a sometimes painful and frustrating process, but ultimately successful and worth the knowledge gained. I learned a lot and jotted down some DOs and DONTs for my own future reference. Some of you might find it useful and I don't want to be selfish with such hard-won data. So here you go...

DONT:

• trim the retort bags to make more space in the canner;
• seal too far from the opening;
• pack too much food per bag;
• leave too much space in the canner, vertically or horizontally (if you have to, put something else in there to take up space, like quarts of water or another pan, etc).

DO:

• pack reasonable amounts of food in the bag (avoid overstuffing!);
• clean the opening of the bag (I ran a moist vinegary paper towel around the inside of each bag and followed it with a dry paper towel);
• seal within 1/2" of the top of the bag and consider that this amounts to head space, same as in your jars;
• consider the space in your individual canner and add spacers if necessary. I never needed to worry about horizontal space, because my canner fits 10 bags max. However, small as my All-American canner is, it still seemed like there was too much room in the dome area that invited the bags to "float" up there and expand while processing. I wanted to prevent this and so I sandwiched three canning lids between my two round racks on the bottom of the canner. This gave the bags a little less space to expand into the domed area;
• try packing the canner in different ways. I tried packing the bags on their sides with alternating tops and bottoms and that worked very well. Upside-down bags didn't work very well for me;
• when done, let the canner depressurize completely and cool for a while before opening. The bags should be allowed to return to normal size (they will puff up to nearly bursting while processing, especially if they have too much room).

I found that, just like with jars, sometimes one would fail and my water would be all oily and nasty and everything would need to be washed in warm soapy water. Same with the retort bags. Wash them well. (This also helps later when you have them all boxed up and are trying to identify the one leaky bag that you missed!).

If you happened to miss one with a leak, it will make itself known by smell or mess. At the same time, if a bag expands so much that it looks like it will explode, this is not normal. It did not process properly and the contents are bad. Throw it away. And when in doubt...there is always the smell test!

Of my 100 bags, I probably lost about 18% in experiments. One entire batch I'd forgotten to wipe out the mouth of the bags before sealing and the salmon oil prevented the heat seal from actually sealing at all (somehow I missed it completely). Nearly all of those failed. After the bags were washed and stored, I lost another few. One or two had leaks that I hadn't seen at first. Yep, they made a mess (I know now that you can tell if a bag is well sealed by placing it on a table and lightly pressing with both palms. It should have some air in it). Another couple of bags had ballooned up to nearly bursting the seams after a week or more on the shelf. I threw those away. The rest are all happy and well and stored and have been a lovely alternative to a heavy and breakable glass jar.

Here is a photo of a box in my pantry today. There are about 60 bags in this box. I hope this has been helpful! I am not a food safety professional, I make no guarantees about my approach or about the safety of your own food processed in a similar way. I am alive and well and my family and friends are regularly eating smoked salmon that I retort processed last summer. That's all I can say.

My greatest problem was smoking my salmon too long before canning. I find it a bit dry. But that's another issue!

 

[Teslin]

I did as much research as I could about retort canning before deciding that the safest way to do it is to use a chamber vacuum machine to be absolutely sure all air is removed from the pouches before sealing, and that the seal was one specifically engineered to seal the 7mm retort (mylar lined with bpa free plastic) bags - a feat which is pretty well impossible to do with any ordinary heat sealer. I finally have acquired all the equipment needed to give it a try and hope to do so soon.

I am hoping that the (over)expansion issue is less of a problem when all air (more than 99 percent on an extended cycle) is removed first, because I do think that just pressing the air out of the bag doesn't remove anywhere near enough, but I guess we will see. Not sure if that is a safety issue, mind you, but I decided to err on the side of caution and wait till I had a retort capable vacuum machine.

Thank you, Bluewater, for the interesting and useful material you provided while experimenting with the process. Did you hot or cold smoke your salmon? I think if I do smoked salmon I will opt to cold smoke only since most fish (like chicken) can be, perhaps in the case of fish even should be, raw - and I too would be worried that I might 'overcook' it in the canner.

One other small thing I have been told is that retort pouches are designed to hold a certain weight so it is a good idea to weigh out the food before placing it in the bag. For instance, 4 ozs of chicken go in a 4 oz bag, and that is approximately the same amount of chicken you would put in a half-pint jar, but you don't need to/shouldn't stuff the bag or leave a specific amount of headspace etc. as you might when jar canning. I am sure though that one gets good at 'eyeballing' after filling (more than) a few bags so perhaps weighing will be less important once one is well familiar with the procedure.

 

[MC Ain't Crazy]

Wow-- blanket THANKS.

I've never tried it-- probably too Old School for my own good, something I need to get over-- but that's a HUGE amount of WONDERFUL information.

THANK YOU.

And yeah-- the Ladies' Section is a good place to ask for serious information. The guys-- they're smart and all, but it seems like it's a permanent ****ing contest out there. Take an umbrella. That's why they're banned from posting in the Ladies' Section.

 

[citykittyatheart]

I've never heard of doing this! Thank you for posting this information. I'll definitely have to research it and give it a try. :thumb: