[Runamok]

BCM Upper first:

So I really like a configuration of BCM's (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...Geissele-Mk1-p/bcm-urg-mid-16-bfh-gmk1-13.htm) but found out that after emailing the company that they do a set screw gas block with hi-temp Loctite instead of pinning it. While I feel this will suffice for the use it will see from me for the foreseeable future I'm worried about when there are no smiths around to patch it up should it come off. So do I buy another gas tube and pinnable block as a backup? Or just replace the factory one from the get go?

Quote from BCM rep "When we install them here: (gas blocks)
Single dimple for the first set screw.
They are degreased , set in dimple, and high temp loc-tite.
Take about 20 min with MAP gas to remove. Very secure."

I'm kind of worried about messing with it if it is already set up from BCM.


For the BUIS:

Since hearing about Troy's questionable hiring practices I have chosen to not use them if possible. I know of Knight's Armament but they are even more expensive than Troy's. This gun will more than likely be used for 3 gun matches and I want to get good with iron sights so should I just go with fixed Daniel Defense sights or get the flips in case I get an optic down the road? I'm also intrigued by these GG&G sights (http://www.gggaz.com/mad-back-up-iron-sight.html) that have multiple apertures that rotate. I believe there is another manufacturer that builds a similar product but cannot think of them currently.

Many and diverse opinions are welcome.

 

[HappyinID]

I like the Troys or a Magpul Mbus for an actual backup sight. But if you're going to run it with just irons for now, you need something as solid as possible. The DD fixed sight would probably be your best choice.

If the optic you get down the road is a red dot type, you can co-witness the fixed sight with it for a nice setup. Otherwise, you could pickup a rear Magpul for not a lot of money if you need a folder.

 

[0002S]

LMT RIBZ rear sight, and choose the front sight of your choice - jm2c

 

[SF340_Driver]

You can have the factory gas block drilled and pinned. Rainier sells a kit to do it yourself if you want.

I use surefire offset irons on my optic setup and DD fixed with a lower 1/3 co-witness aimpoint on my carbine. Happy with both.

 

[corndogggy]

BCM Upper...

this gun will more than likely be used for 3 gun matches

I'm also intrigued by these GG&G sights

You stalking me or something? :thumb: Below is my 3-gun rig... BCM upper and GG&G BUIS.

 

[corndogggy]

Personally... for 3-gun, assuming you are buying new, I wouldn't be looking at BCM stuff. JP if you can afford it, otherwise several manufacturers such as DoubleStar and Stag is coming out with more appropriate rigs. It's to the point now that even having a quad rail will get you funny looks and comments about your "cheese grater". Mine above stands out a bit to be honest.

At the minimum, for mostly 3-gun use, you need to be looking at adjustable gas blocks. Worrying about whether it's pinned or not just doesn't make any difference for this sport. What WILL make a difference is the recoil and ultra fast follow-up shots. The adjustable gas block will help with this the most. BCM is the wrong place to look. Yes it will work but for about the same amount of money you can have something more appropriate for the sport.

The iron sights... just make sure you can change the blades on the front sight. As far as I know these were meant to be back up sights and not 300 yard target sights. You can use them but I imagine you will want a smaller blade once you get better. This doesn't interest me much so I don't know what to tell you other than the people I know who are a good shot with iron sights have smaller front blades.

 

[Runamok]

Personally... for 3-gun, assuming you are buying new, I wouldn't be looking at BCM stuff. JP if you can afford it, otherwise several manufacturers such as DoubleStar and Stag is coming out with more appropriate rigs. It's to the point now that even having a quad rail will get you funny looks and comments about your "cheese grater". Mine above stands out a bit to be honest.

At the minimum, for mostly 3-gun use, you need to be looking at adjustable gas blocks. Worrying about whether it's pinned or not just doesn't make any difference for this sport. What WILL make a difference is the recoil and ultra fast follow-up shots. The adjustable gas block will help with this the most. BCM is the wrong place to look. Yes it will work but for about the same amount of money you can have something more appropriate for the sport.

The iron sights... just make sure you can change the blades on the front sight. As far as I know these were meant to be back up sights and not 300 yard target sights. You can use them but I imagine you will want a smaller blade once you get better. This doesn't interest me much so I don't know what to tell you other than the people I know who are a good shot with iron sights have smaller front blades.

Gotcha, currently it will just be a quality SHTF rifle, 3 gun will be a future use and the rifle will get more modded at that point when I decide to dive into the deep end or I'll just get a dedicated comp rifle.

 

[Unobtanium]

I like the Troys or a Magpul Mbus for an actual backup sight. But if you're going to run it with just irons for now, you need something as solid as possible. The DD fixed sight would probably be your best choice.

If the optic you get down the road is a red dot type, you can co-witness the fixed sight with it for a nice setup. Otherwise, you could pickup a rear Magpul for not a lot of money if you need a folder.

+1, except I no longer run. Troy. Their politics are part of it, the other part is that the apertures flip easily. Bump it and end up tilted a bit, which I have read happens more and more easily as they age, and you could have serious shift and not notice until you miss if you aren't looking at the ring specifically, which should indeed just be blurry. The dd fixed sight is much stiffer to flip, and the magpul mbus is very.known effort only. I just zeroed my mbus and shoot the same groups at 25y with it as I do my two moa t1.

 

[firstforcerecon]

BCM Upper first:

So I really like a configuration of BCM's (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...Geissele-Mk1-p/bcm-urg-mid-16-bfh-gmk1-13.htm) but found out that after emailing the company that they do a set screw gas block with hi-temp Loctite instead of pinning it. While I feel this will suffice for the use it will see from me for the foreseeable future I'm worried about when there are no smiths around to patch it up should it come off. So do I buy another gas tube and pinnable block as a backup? Or just replace the factory one from the get go?

Quote from BCM rep "When we install them here: (gas blocks)
Single dimple for the first set screw.
They are degreased , set in dimple, and high temp loc-tite.
Take about 20 min with MAP gas to remove. Very secure."

I'm kind of worried about messing with it if it is already set up from BCM.


For the BUIS:

Since hearing about Troy's questionable hiring practices I have chosen to not use them if possible. I know of Knight's Armament but they are even more expensive than Troy's. This gun will more than likely be used for 3 gun matches and I want to get good with iron sights so should I just go with fixed Daniel Defense sights or get the flips in case I get an optic down the road? I'm also intrigued by these GG&G sights (http://www.gggaz.com/mad-back-up-iron-sight.html) that have multiple apertures that rotate. I believe there is another manufacturer that builds a similar product but cannot think of them currently.

Many and diverse opinions are welcome.

BCM is the line the professionals use. If it's good enough for Travis Haley it should be good enough for you. Troy employs anti gun people surprisingly. I wouldn't buy lube from them. Their sights are way over priced anyhow. Purchase the KAC's

As far as the three gun crowd I wouldn't worry about what they think. They wouldn't last 30 seconds in combat. As a general rule. There are some, mostly Vets that get that a 2 way range is much different.

 

[Unobtanium]

BCM is the line the professionals use. If it's good enough for Travis Haley it should be good enough for you. Troy employs anti gun people surprisingly. I wouldn't buy lube from them. Their sights are way over priced anyhow. Purchase the KAC's

As far as the three gun crowd I wouldn't worry about what they think. They wouldn't last 30 seconds in combat. As a general rule. There are some, mostly Vets that get that a 2 way range is much different.

3-gun bleeds into the real world. Notice the new 1-6 variables you are starting to see popping up in SOF hands in Afghanistan? Those started on the 3-gun course. Tubes? 3-gun.

I don't think anyone is claiming 3-gunner = combat rockstar. However, a 3-gun rifle must allow the user rapid, accurate hits on targets at unknown distances from "0"-300, sometimes 400 yards. This is the same game as the infantryman, to use the term loosely to describe anyone shooting anyone who is a threat, is also playing. 3-gun rifles need to hold up to high round counts...those people shoot around 20-30k rounds a year in 5.56. They want gear that lasts. LIKELY if an item is used by one of the top 3-gunners, it's durable.

That said...the adjustable gas block. LMOS carriers. Lightweight springs. That stuff is gamer-only. Even JP will tell you that and CLEARLY lists it as such on their website.

 

[Unobtanium]

Personally... for 3-gun, assuming you are buying new, I wouldn't be looking at BCM stuff. JP if you can afford it, otherwise several manufacturers such as DoubleStar and Stag is coming out with more appropriate rigs. It's to the point now that even having a quad rail will get you funny looks and comments about your "cheese grater". Mine above stands out a bit to be honest.

At the minimum, for mostly 3-gun use, you need to be looking at adjustable gas blocks. Worrying about whether it's pinned or not just doesn't make any difference for this sport. What WILL make a difference is the recoil and ultra fast follow-up shots. The adjustable gas block will help with this the most. BCM is the wrong place to look. Yes it will work but for about the same amount of money you can have something more appropriate for the sport.

The iron sights... just make sure you can change the blades on the front sight. As far as I know these were meant to be back up sights and not 300 yard target sights. You can use them but I imagine you will want a smaller blade once you get better. This doesn't interest me much so I don't know what to tell you other than the people I know who are a good shot with iron sights have smaller front blades.

Very solid 3-gun advise. A 3-gun rifle that is competative for 3-gun is not what I would pick for a self/home defense rifle. At all. That said, a solid HD/SD rifle will put you at a disadvantage in 3-gun.

The one piece you mentioned that walks in both worlds is the tube. The only thing I attach is a sight/light (they are the same item), a sling, and a VFG for use as a reference as well as a few other things. Otherwise, I have no need to mount anything up front. The tube has become durable, light, and consummately sensible for those not needing anything more than what I run. If you run a PEQ or other, chances are, you aren't incapable of defining your own needs as to a rail system.

 

[corndogggy]

The biggest thing that doesn't work in both worlds is the lightweight carriers. Reason being, they have no forward assist serrations, and to a lesser extent, they don't last as long. But, they are crazy easy to swap out too, its not like a gun has to be married to its bcg.

Also if you get a standard geometry trigger but want a lighter trigger pull, well, the only way to really do that effectively is to make the hammer spring lighter, which can cause light primer strikes on crappy duty ammo. But, this is why everybody is going to the hiperfire triggers, you get a light pull but still have a ton of hammer energy.

Adjustable gas blocks... Ive never heard of anybody having problems with a Syrac Ordnance. Noveske switchblock, maybe a little.

Otherwise, the equipment is pretty much the same, and even on these things you can have parts that would work fine in both worlds.

As for bcm being what pros use and the Travis Haley stuff... Keep in mind that thankless pros use whatever their department hands them. The high profile pros use whatever their sponsors tell them to sell. High profile guys don't just constantly sing the praises of a company for the hell of it. They are glorified sales people. Making statements about using what people like Larry Vickers or travis Haley uses just means you're a sucker for marketing.

 

[Unobtanium]

The biggest thing that doesn't work in both worlds is the lightweight carriers. Reason being, they have no forward assist serrations, and to a lesser extent, they don't last as long. But, they are crazy easy to swap out too, its not like a gun has to be married to its bcg.

I agree that they don't work in both worlds, but it's not because they lack forward assist cuts (the forward assist is not something that should be used for any reason). Also, it's a chunk of metal. Have you ever heard of a carrier itself breaking? The gas-keys are the same, so you're saying a lighter carrier will break? Has anyone EVER seem a broken carrier (not from a round loaded with pistol powder or something...)

Also if you get a standard geometry trigger but want a lighter trigger pull, well, the only way to really do that effectively is to make the hammer spring lighter, which can cause light primer strikes on crappy duty ammo. But, this is why everybody is going to the hiperfire triggers, you get a light pull but still have a ton of hammer energy.

Everyone is not going to those. Geissele is still the standard with the USSOCOM.

Adjustable gas blocks... Ive never heard of anybody having problems with a Syrac Ordnance. Noveske switchblock, maybe a little.

Biggest issue is user error and logistics of actual use. You forget where you left it, or it's super hot and carbon has it sluggish/frozen and that little "use the tip of the bullet to move it" that Noveske sells the SB concept on just doesn't cut it. BTDT with both situations.

Otherwise, the equipment is pretty much the same, and even on these things you can have parts that would work fine in both worlds.

As for bcm being what pros use and the Travis Haley stuff... Keep in mind that thankless pros use whatever their department hands them. The high profile pros use whatever their sponsors tell them to sell. High profile guys don't just constantly sing the praises of a company for the hell of it. They are glorified sales people. Making statements about using what people like Larry Vickers or travis Haley uses just means you're a sucker for marketing.
This is true to an extent. They won't champion a product that's going to make them look bad and ruin their credibility/ability to market their image in the future, but otherwise, dead on.

Replies in red. I gotta ask though...have you EVER seen a carrier body broken?

 

[corndogggy]

Replies in red. I gotta ask though...have you EVER seen a carrier body broken?

"Breaking" isn't the issue. The lightweight ones I mentioned are made out of aluminum. The things wear out and you get ejection issues and whatnot. A catastrophic failure shouldn't be the concern. I don't run them so I don't know the specifics as to what actually happens when it does wear out. I had one on a JP upper but ran into cash flow issues and had to sell the thing, I didn't wear one out.

Everyone is not going to those. Geissele is still the standard with the USSOCOM.

"Everyone"... who wants a significantly lighter trigger pull without sacrificing hammer energy. Pretty sure that this isn't a requirement in typical combat carbines. Tons of top 3-gunners are going to this system, and I would bet that you will eventually see them in SPR rifles. It's too new to be adopted by any department or military branch plus it is more complicated and expensive than a standard Geiselle SSA. That doesn't mean it's not reliable or wouldn't work.

Biggest issue is user error and logistics of actual use. You forget where you left it...

Ideally you wouldn't be playing musical settings on it. You figure out what load works in your rifle and you tune the gas block accordingly to minimize recoil while still being totally reliable. Then you leave it alone and use that same load all the time. You may have to fiddle with it with extreme temperature swings but otherwise it's not a toy.

 

[Unobtanium]

"Breaking" isn't the issue. The lightweight ones I mentioned are made out of aluminum. The things wear out and you get ejection issues and whatnot. A catastrophic failure shouldn't be the concern.



"Everyone"... who wants a significantly lighter trigger pull without sacrificing hammer energy. Pretty sure that this isn't a requirement in typical combat carbines. Tons of top 3-gunners are going to this system, and I would bet that you will eventually see them in SPR rifles. It's too new to be adopted by any department or military branch plus it is more complicated and expensive than a standard Geiselle SSA. That doesn't mean it's not reliable or wouldn't work.



Ideally you wouldn't be playing musical settings on it. You figure out what load works in your rifle and you tune the gas block accordingly to minimize recoil while still being totally reliable. Then you leave it alone and use that same load all the time. You may have to fiddle with it with extreme temperature swings but otherwise it's not a toy.

That is not how a switchblock works. You run it "off", "Suppressed", or "unsuppressed". So yes, you would monkey with it.

Tunable gas-blocks are a no-go of course for a combat type rifle. They offer no benefit and are more parts. I have only seen one used on a "go-to" rifle. It was a rep from Surefire that came out and he had it tuned for use with his suppressor on a clean, well-lubed weapon. On day one after a few hundred rounds the gun was cycling veeerrrryyyyy slow. He began having numerous failures. More lube fixed it. He didn't have any on his rifle, so he walked through the mud and slush all the way back up to the benches and back. Kindof sucked. Luckily it was an environment on a 1-way range. The "regular" gas port is just fine and was made to provide adequate gas to cycle the weapon full of crap, yet not beat it up. All an adjustable gas-block is is a restricted gas-port, basically. More often than not, they cause more issues than they solve unless you are using a competition gun tuned for that one load using a low-mass operating system, such as the 3-gun shooter will do, as you have noted. Solidly 3-gun only.

I have never seen an aluminum carrier. I'm not saying they don't exist obviously, I've just never seen it. Do you have a link? I was referencing JP's LMOS carriers, specifically, since their name came up in this thread.

Geissele triggers work fine and have the same amount of springs and moving parts as a USGI trigger. I do not feel that there is any benefit to the Hiperfire on a "working" gun. 3-gun? Sure. They are lighter than you want for a working gun. Also, they have a super-short reset. That is why 3-gunners love them. It's a great idea, and for 3-gun and someone's varmint rig, it's killer, but for a hard use gun, it's just extra parts with no real performance improvement for the objective at hand.

 

[corndogggy]

That all being said, I'm probably just adding to the confusion. Any rifle that shoots will work in 3-gun, so get what you want and run the thing. But, if you're building one from scratch for heavy 3-gun use, there are things you might want to consider. That's all I meant.

 

[corndogggy]

That is not how a switchblock works. You run it "off", "Suppressed", or "unsuppressed". So yes, you would monkey with it.

Like I said before, I've heard of problems with switchblocks. Syrac, not so much.

I have never seen an aluminum carrier. I'm not saying they don't exist obviously, I've just never seen it. Do you have a link? I was referencing JP's LMOS carriers, specifically, since their name came up in this thread.

JP's used to be aluminum. Smith Enterprises makes one. Apparently all the new ones have gotten away from this.

 

[corndogggy]

BTW, my rifle pictured above has a Geiselle SSA. It works fine. If I were building a new one I'd do some things differently but it's a good all in one setup the way I have it.

 

[Unobtanium]

BTW, my rifle pictured above has a Geiselle SSA. It works fine. If I were building a new one I'd do some things differently but it's a good all in one setup the way I have it.

I used to run SSA's, but switched to the Super-V. I like it a lot better. I just prefer single-action triggers in the 4-5# range. Crisp with reasonably short reset. No adjustable stuff.

 

[Runamok]

So to sum up the thread so far: BCM upper is fine, don't purchase an extra pinnable gas block for possible repairs in a shtf environment. Mod the upper past it's current makeup for serious 3 gun use.

Buis are all over the place; front runner is an elevation adjustable fixed rear like the LMT with a solid front like the DD.