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A very revealing thing about this situation has been the mindset that people are entitled to what is (and not) available in their local stores or even online. Have heard and read more than once that "outsiders are buying up our stuff", "hoarders",or "locusts", etc..

If you can't afford it or don't buy it in time it is simply not yours. No amount of socialist tears will change that.
 

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It's because of these people we have the shortages, they should only be taking what they "need" and no more.

I've heard this from family and friends and they are mad. I ask them nice and quietly, who is worse the people who have taken the time to plan a bit or the people that always assumes everything will be fine?
:D:Just couldn't resist sharing. Saw this joke on the net a couple of days ago.

Just left Walmart where a lady with a basket full of TP asked me what kind of dog I had. I said a GSD service dog. Very rudely she yells what type of service? I said he is a BLD. What's a BLD? She asked as she has her face in my dog's face allowing him to lick her......Now with a straight face I said "He is my butt licking dog. I can't find any toilet paper anywhere because of all you hoarding a$$ people, so he licks my a$$ clean...... :eek:
The cashier lost it and walked away from the register.:thumb:
 

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I doubt it is preppers who are flipping toilet paper. It is probably people who claim to entrepreneurs on Facebook but don't actually own a business. Or claim they are always hustling.

Preppers are probably sitting on their stash and using it since resupply was iffy for a while. Although it seems the shortage is over. Local grocery store had 20 ft by 6 ft of tp. It did seem 30% higher than 6 months ago.
 

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A thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Has no one ever **** in the woods wiped their ass with leaves? Toilet paper is a luxury. Going without it is an inconvenience. There are many things to prioritize above **** paper.
There has been more than one time I walked out of the woods with only one sock on.
 

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It's because of these people we have the shortages, they should only be taking what they "need" and no more.

I've heard this from family and friends and they are mad. I ask them nice and quietly, who is worse the people who have taken the time to plan a bit or the people that always assumes everything will be fine?
I haven't been shopping (or ordering online) in the last 2 months.

They are welcome.
 

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This will be interesting when everything settles. Consumers aren't using more TP than they did before this virus. So now what happens when all the closets and garages are full and store shelves are full?

It reminds me of when, not too long ago, 'neck beards' were hoarding .22 ammo and trying to sell it for 5x its worth. Now they're sitting on it hoping to sell it for enough to break even. Not gonna happen.
 

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Unreasonable, is of course in the eyes of the beholder. But, double the price or more is unreasonable. I know profit is not a four letter word, but...
This isn't just directed at you, you've given me a place to offer this.

Here's why I don't know what "unreasonable" means, whether it's double the price or not:

A hurricane hits the southeastern US. Bad one. Katrina-level. Everybody wants a generator. So they go to Home Depot, Lowes, everywhere they can think of and there are no generators to be had, period. Bought out.

But there are generators available in the Midwest, where I live. Some enterprising soul buys 100 generators, rents a truck, and heads to the southeast to sell them.

How much do you think they should be able to sell them for? The demand is high in the southeast, very high. What price would motivate our "enterprising soul" to invest his money, rent the truck, drive down to the southeast, and sell those generators?

This isn't just theoretical--it's a thing, a real thing. So--how much compensation do you think "enterprising soul" deserves for investing his money, renting the truck, buying fuel for that truck, taking his time (probably a week), sleeping in that truck, using up money for food.......

....how much?

So let's change it from "enterprising soul" to you. How much?

*****************​

There's an interesting thing here. At double-the-price, there are generators to be had from "enterprising soul."

How many generators are available at regular price? Or, say, a premium of 10 percent? And how many weeks into the future will they show up?

*****************​

Now, it's different if someone buys up all the local TP so no one else could get it, but then turns around and tries to resell it at double or triple the original price. That, to me, is hoarding it so others can't get it.

Not the same, of course, as my own stash of TP, which I laid in well before the shortages. Nobody has been denied TP because of what I have stored.

*****************​

There's a part of me that just can't get past the idea that maybe if people weren't being so protected by "gouging" laws, people might just be more inclined to be responsible for their lives instead of demanding the government "make it all better."

There are way too many people who could have bought a generator when they were readily available, but chose to spend their resources on things like expensive vacations, the extra double-shot latte every morning, and so on. And then, when times get tough, they don't want to be held responsible for their choices.

I think people should be held responsible for their choices. They won't learn if there isn't pain involved. Not incredible pain, but enough to be instructive.
 

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This isn't just directed at you, you've given me a place to offer this.

Here's why I don't know what "unreasonable" means, whether it's double the price or not:

A hurricane hits the southeastern US. Bad one. Katrina-level. Everybody wants a generator. So they go to Home Depot, Lowes, everywhere they can think of and there are no generators to be had, period. Bought out.

But there are generators available in the Midwest, where I live. Some enterprising soul buys 100 generators, rents a truck, and heads to the southeast to sell them.

How much do you think they should be able to sell them for? The demand is high in the southeast, very high. What price would motivate our "enterprising soul" to invest his money, rent the truck, drive down to the southeast, and sell those generators?

This isn't just theoretical--it's a thing, a real thing. So--how much compensation do you think "enterprising soul" deserves for investing his money, renting the truck, buying fuel for that truck, taking his time (probably a week), sleeping in that truck, using up money for food.......

....how much?

So let's change it from "enterprising soul" to you. How much?

********

There's an interesting thing here. At double-the-price, there are generators to be had from "enterprising soul."

How many generators are available at regular price? Or, say, a premium of 10 percent? And how many weeks into the future will they show up?

********

Now, it's different if someone buys up all the local TP so no one else could get it, but then turns around and tries to resell it at double or triple the original price. That, to me, is hoarding it so others can't get it.

Not the same, of course, as my own stash of TP, which I laid in well before the shortages. Nobody has been denied TP because of what I have stored.

***********

There's a part of me that just can't get past the idea that maybe if people weren't being so protected by "gouging" laws, people might just be more inclined to be responsible for their lives instead of demanding the government "make it all better."

There are way too many people who could have bought a generator when they were readily available, but chose to spend their resources on things like expensive vacations, the extra double-shot latte every morning, and so on. And then, when times get tough, they don't want to be held responsible for their choices.

I think people should be held responsible for their choices. They won't learn if there isn't pain involved. Not incredible pain, but enough to be instructive.
I sell stuff for a living that I buy in bulk and then divide. It is not worth the time or money invested if I don't get at least 20% profit off the money I paid for the item after expenses.

A lot of people who buy stuff fail to realize that just because it was sold for 20 dollars does not mean I pocketed 20 dollars. More likely you pocket 5 dollars profit. So selling that 400 dollar generator for double might only make the guy who trucked it in a hundred dollars after expenses. Is a 25% profit unreasonable? I don't think so considering the risk of time/money invested.
 

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My son has a side gig like that ....some things sell quickly and other things your money may be tied up for a good while.
You time effort and expenses have to be accounted for.

He could get in on this current situation and make some money but won't do it.

He's making a freebie right for the health industry when he has a free moment at work
He has the company's blessing with free material and use of there machine..
 

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Preppers are not the problem, they plan well in advance (mostly). Hoarders are a small part of the problem. Opportunitists (greedy ones) are the problem.
Having something to use is not an issue.
Taking advantage of others by making an unreasonable profit is the problem!
But that's capitalism! Don't you want socialism to fix that? ;) I wonder if it would?
 

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just a couple of general observations:

I have had several people complain that the government should have been more prepared and Trump is stupid for not preparing more, as "we all knew this was going to happen"

I agree that the while the government had preps, they could have been more prepared, and dispute that the President is stupid. But the real question is...since you knew it was coming what did you do to prepare and take care of your family? hand sanitizer? masks? you get the picture, invariably that is the end of the conversation

i don't believe in price gouging, its called a profit, black market or whatever you want to name it, it provides scarce resources to those that need them. besides they need to learn a lesson
 

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just a couple of general observations:

I have had several people complain that the government should have been more prepared and Trump is stupid for not preparing more, as "we all knew this was going to happen"

I agree that the while the government had preps, they could have been more prepared, and dispute that the President is stupid. But the real question is...since you knew it was coming what did you do to prepare and take care of your family? hand sanitizer? masks? you get the picture, invariably that is the end of the conversation

i don't believe in price gouging, its called a profit, black market or whatever you want to name it, it provides scarce resources to those that need them. besides they need to learn a lesson
what this should do is teach people a valuable lesson: that government is no more prepared for disaster than the average person, has no more ability to accurately predict the future than your local crystal-ball-holding medium, and will not be able to provide nearly the aid and support that you'd believe, should the worst happen.

most people will not learn this lesson. they will either blissfully go back to their former lives when the quarantine is lifted and forget all about Q1-Q2 2020, or they'll rage at the government because of who is in the oval office (and for no other reason). A much smaller minority will have received the wake-up-call.

Yes, a lot of us so-called preppers got caught flat-footed on this, for most of us, SHTF has been a theory without any practice. And most of the things that disappeared quickest were things that people don't usually include in their "general" SHTF supplies - they were things you'd prep if you were specifically prepping for a pandemic. But I bet a lot of us won't make that mistake again.

As to the price gouging thing. I think there's a distinction to be made. There is nothing wrong with a normal supplier of goods to allow price to become a rationing device. That's how economics works. It's how you make it more likely that the people who really need it can get it. If you don't allow prices to rise, the scalpers swoop in, buy your entire stock, and then flip it at gouging prices themselves - after artificially reducing supply in the market. I think price gouging laws in that respect do more harm than good. They create scalpers.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
I was at the store about 2 weeks ago and saw tp (for the 1st time in a month or so) I grabbed a 12 pack, I saw a coworker in the store so I told him they have tp I also called another friend they both said I don't need any... keep in mind I didn't "need" any that day or for the next few months but who knows how long this craziness will last.

I don't consider myself a "prepper" but we have made some decisions with knowing the uncertainty of tomorrow, sometimes it's just floors me with how short sighted people can be.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
This isn't just directed at you, you've given me a place to offer this.

Here's why I don't know what "unreasonable" means, whether it's double the price or not:

A hurricane hits the southeastern US. Bad one. Katrina-level. Everybody wants a generator. So they go to Home Depot, Lowes, everywhere they can think of and there are no generators to be had, period. Bought out.

But there are generators available in the Midwest, where I live. Some enterprising soul buys 100 generators, rents a truck, and heads to the southeast to sell them.

How much do you think they should be able to sell them for? The demand is high in the southeast, very high. What price would motivate our "enterprising soul" to invest his money, rent the truck, drive down to the southeast, and sell those generators?

This isn't just theoretical--it's a thing, a real thing. So--how much compensation do you think "enterprising soul" deserves for investing his money, renting the truck, buying fuel for that truck, taking his time (probably a week), sleeping in that truck, using up money for food.......

....how much?

So let's change it from "enterprising soul" to you. How much?

********

There's an interesting thing here. At double-the-price, there are generators to be had from "enterprising soul."

How many generators are available at regular price? Or, say, a premium of 10 percent? And how many weeks into the future will they show up?

********

Now, it's different if someone buys up all the local TP so no one else could get it, but then turns around and tries to resell it at double or triple the original price. That, to me, is hoarding it so others can't get it.

Not the same, of course, as my own stash of TP, which I laid in well before the shortages. Nobody has been denied TP because of what I have stored.

***********

There's a part of me that just can't get past the idea that maybe if people weren't being so protected by "gouging" laws, people might just be more inclined to be responsible for their lives instead of demanding the government "make it all better."

There are way too many people who could have bought a generator when they were readily available, but chose to spend their resources on things like expensive vacations, the extra double-shot latte every morning, and so on. And then, when times get tough, they don't want to be held responsible for their choices.

I think people should be held responsible for their choices. They won't learn if there isn't pain involved. Not incredible pain, but enough to be instructive.
Great example at the end of the day nobody is forced to buy anything it's merely an option.
 

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Not surprising. The "Have-Nots" always tend to partially or fully blame the "Have-it" crowd when they face hard times.

The problem arises when they feel that they are entitled to what you have - either taking it by direct force or demanding a government mandate that will be poorly worded, haphazardly passed despite obvious issues and have the opposite affect of what is usually intended.

I had this exact discussion with a socialist co-worker. He felt that government control over the economy (Central Planning) and federalizing the supply chain would assure that everyone gets their fair share and the "Prepper" community wouldn't even need to exist.

My counter was basically that if you look at places where there is government control of the supply chain (Military, VA, Social Programs, agencies, etc.) you see constant scarcity or surplus, overbearing bureaucracy, long wait times and competition for resources amongst groups. It will also arguably form a black market for certain items - Think along the lines of the drug trade.

It's better to be able to source your supplies personally rather than rely on more government and hope it works out. But when people can't get the things that they want (not need - want) it's easier to blame it on someone else rather than personal failues and lack of foresight.

My wife was actually ****ed at me for getting some extra TP and some cases of canned food that we might need for short term supplies. 3 weeks later after the stay at home orders were issued and seeing empty shelves and a fight at the grocery store over self rising flour she admitted I was right *insert blatant pat on the pack*.
 

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Unreasonable, is of course in the eyes of the beholder. But, double the price or more is unreasonable. I know profit is not a four letter word, but...
That’s the free market system at work. When a hurricane hits an area and resources become scarce, where’s the incentive for a company, distributor, or individual to divert resources to those areas if there’s no profit? Consider they have to package, transport, and deliver those resources which can be costly. A few dozen generators sitting in a tranquil area of Ohio getting purchased and delivered to Florida during a time of crisis and shortage is going to come at a cost. I think the issue is understanding supply and demand, and competition. The more taking advantage of this opportunity is what will make those costs more reasonable, but a generator costing $1500 in Ohio during normal times may cost $2500-3000 in Florida during a shortage and need…is that unreasonable for those that have the money but didn’t take the typical precautions? If I knew and was warned about getting a generator set up and didn't take action, I would be upset at having to pay double the price of that generator, but I wouldn't be upset with the seller (more likely grateful), I would be upset at myself for not budgeting, prioritizing, and taking precautions before they were needed.

Conversely, I have no issues during a crisis like this where (or more likely when) there was a shortage of ammo and guns to sell (at a very nice profit) a spare/unused handgun and some ammo to a friend I've been warning about buying when the buying was good. I don't lose sleep for taking advantage of even a friend after I've warned them...

I think we confuse this with the greedy opportunist who buys up a few dozen generators in the area to be hit and then waits until the supplies dry up and sell them at very unreasonable prices (3-5x as much). It’s still a free market, but I can see where hoarding in a time of crisis for the sole purpose to fleece those in need can be viewed as pretty unethical. I would rather deal with those legally case by case instead of the government intervening. The free market system has it’s own checks and balances and doesn’t need excessive regulations. Those who routinely prepare with common sense understand this and usually don’t have an issue with it either. Times like this pandemic, I don’t need to buy TP or ammo, or guns…but I have been rotating through my gas storage and refreshing it…

ROCK6
 

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lol first of all, anything for sale including toilet paper can only be sold for what the market will bare...just like houses or anything else--this is america and anyone entrepreneurial enough to start a business has the right to make a profit.

secondarily every STORE IN AMERICA that raised prices should then have the same rules apply. ive already seen the class action suits started against walmart for a 3x increase in the cost of eggs..
 
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