[OlympicArmsFan]

Hi all I posted this on a board that is supposed to be a SHTF Militia and I see it more as an arm chair commando site that talks more of what they are going to do when order is returned. With that said.

I want to run practice drills with some friends. These guys are ex-Military and love to run them with live fire and as me being new to working with them I thought of something safe and a way of going into more real world deal.

I thought of using paint ball guns or airsoft guns to practice these drills.

Escape & Evasion

Perimeter Defense (Home, camping & Bug out site)

Supression Fire

Close Quarter Combat

I posted about this on the other board and they thought well its a good idea but would turn into a game. I told them if you have a good group your working with like that of family, friends or neighbors this would not be a problem. This is a tool I see as being a life saving method.

I also thought of having a hunter force that you would go up against. This would help in all areas of training. This is one where my friends can not practice due to using live ammo.

I have seen videos on youtube of Militia groups training this way so I guess im not far off on wanting to do this. Tell me what you think of my idea and of what I want to practice and add to my idea. Thanks everyone. This is by far one of the best survivalist boards around and a lot of others should look up to.

 

[MRbungle]

it is not a bad idea , i do the same with paintball, the only problem is that paintball makers do not have the range or the accuracy of a rifle.

but it does help with small squad tactics.

 

[ChubbyHubby]

novel concept

 

[Macumazahn]

There is no point is just running around, shooting. I suggest you rotate a person or two (depending on the size of the group) to observe and asses people. They can spot things like use of terrain, failure to cover, bad shooting form, and the like that is hard for the person doing it to judge. At the very least you need to talk about what happened; fist pounding is not going to do much good.

 

[OlympicArmsFan]

Thanks all for the comments. The paintball guns wouldnt be as good for accuracy but it would work.

I like the idea of setting out people and seeing what went wrong and what went right.

I would like to try this out with a group and other groups and have a force hunting one group down. This would add to what we might face if and when the SHTF. I have a lot of land I can do this with roads that no one travels so I could do drills of cars being shot at and taken out to where we or those who survive have to move out on the run. I need to put this all in play as I think its all good ideas.

Everyone please post idea's and what all you would do.

 

[bebop1034]

your ideas are perfectly great i myself use those ideas as well using paintball and airsoft. but the main idea of most military people as i have friends that are in the military as well as one that was in the first and second iraq war, and afghanistan as well. and he says they prefur live fire in drills mainly because you actually have the chance of accidently getting shot. all the more reason to emphasize perfection on the drill/manuver. you dont get the same sounds as well with paintball and stuff he says. the only thing they would use paintball or any other combat simulant for was mock battles and war games. as since they dont kill but will teach you solid teamwork and put you up against a foe or foes.

and i love your idea of the roads and ambushes if i lived close id probably join you also if had the money:upsidedown:

 

[Cryptkeeper]

1/2 of combat is not getting hit. paintball can teach ppl how to stay alive and still fight back. as well as teach close quaters/short range combat.if it didnt do any good the military wouldnt use it .

how can ppl see what their limits are, if they dont push past those limits. i did that ALOT in paintball (practice) i died alot but i learned alot from it.mainly WOW !! it worked!! i got away with that!!! LoL i did some things in my day ppl thought i was crazy.but it would unlock the grid lock and we would win!! if i had someone doing supressive fire i would run up on them point blank ( bunker them) in my day NO1 did that until i was doing it. our 1st year we won the 1st/only 4 state regaional at the time sponsored by paintball mainia we got a paintball sponsoreship and a budd orr (wargames (autococker))sponsorship out of it (budd orr was the best at that time) i still use CO2 with a remote lol

 

[voiderest]

Hey a good option if you don't already have the pb markers is airsoft. Generally the airsoft will be cleaner and more realistic. The only reason I had gone with pb is not trusting people and lack of airsoft fields. But if you have your own land and group of people you are basically training with then it would probably be better.

The only thing to really think about with airsoft are things like clips and full-auto. Most of the airsoft guns don't keep the ammo count realistic and full-auto is harder to come by with real weapons. If you needed targets you could use $20 wally world airsoft guns as the opfor aren't really training. I've seen some full size m4s going for $30-40 but they make highly realistic metal/wood versions of all sort arms. The lower quality full sized models with clips should feel like and fit any gear might have such as slings or vests. If they are too light to feel real some creativity with a hot glue gun and wights could probably fix that

With the pb you would have to deal with the mess of the paint (not that bad really), the hooper, and cost of ammo. The hooper is my biggest compliant with pb on a whole regardless of your needs. The thing gets in the way and is unrealistic. In great number of markers the hopper feeds into the top of it so you cannot sight down the barrel. Tippman and clones offset the hopper so you can sight down the barrel but it is still a big thing creating a blind spot and making your profile larger than it could be. There are some options that move the hopper and one company that even has realistic clips, but they are costly. Also with pb you have to have airtanks and air, more unrealism and cost.

The ammo is another cost concern I've gotten 2000 rd of paint for $15 on sale, expect to pay $30 or more. 2000 rd of airsoft are $6 and a lot of airsoft kits come with ammo. The physics of the paintball differ greatly then that of airsoft. The paintball is hollow with a fill so it will never fly as nicely at the pellet. If you get a popped ball in the barrel the paintball will fly in arcs. There are barrels, most notably a tippman, that put spin on the ball. Backspin makes the ball have a flatter trajectory, however in any other direction it is insane. One company advertises how you can use their barrel to not only have that flat trajectory but also turn the barrel to make trick shots around trees and cover.

On a note of cover read up on it. Just about everything with a rifle isn't.

Edit:

Edit2: I loved what the forums just did. I copy pasted the link in here and it made it an embedded video. Also with cover remember a car isn't along with most of the things people hide behind in the movies, even bulletproof isn't just resistant. If you ever get body armor remember will only take so many hits before failing and before it fails the energy is still being dumped into your body causing some amount of damage and disorientation. Plus there are still rounds a civilian can get that will bypass the armor, the level of the armor the dependent factor of course.

 

[Travis418]

My brother and I bought some airsoft guns for training exercises. You can buy steel airsoft pistols($100) that are the same weight as the real ones and they use a gas to fire which gives it pretty decent recoil simulation, they arent as loud but who needs to go deaf from practicing something. My favorite thing about them is I can shoot them in my house, no need for a shooting range.

 

[Lowdown3]

Problem with paintball is that often times heavy foliage will stop or deflect the "rounds"- I've seen it make people sloppy and give them a false sense of hope.

Guy goes down behind a palm frown and the palm frown gives him cover from the paintballs. Think that would work with a .308? .223? How bout a pellet gun? LOL

Also, in general, the guns are different ergonomically than your standard rifle, capacity is much higher than most do carry in magazines. Safety gear typically hinders your viewing capabilities and makes you louder.

Blanks and BFA's would be more realistic as long as you didn't have a bunch of egos involved- i.e, the "I shot you" "No you missed me cause I'm partially invisible" type arguments.

Something is a little more realistic and puts the point home more when your using your actual rifle, pointing it at the person, pulling the trigger, hearing bang, that sort of thing. Blanks work. They will also give you the "noise" that paintball and airsoft can't give. "Oh but we will use hand signals"- great for before the shooting starts, after that most will be yelled out signals. And hopefully you've came up with easy to remember code words

Instead of yelling:

"I'm out!" Or "Reload" which tells me that your weapon is DRY and I can now shoot you- You could yell something like "Honky Tonk!"

"Cover me!" which tells me someone is fixing to get up and move, so watch the position and be ready to shoot them when they start there rush, could be replaced with "Drive in!" (I'm making up words here btw)

This way you can convey the meaning that YOUR TEAM will understand without having the enemy hear-

"Reload!" "I'm out" "Jam" "Malfunction" "Cover me" "I'm moving forward"

There's a word for those types of phrases, it's called a "CLUE." :

I'm not against live fire training but this isn't first day out type stuff. You have to know the limitations of the folks your dealing with and have worked with and observed them numerous times previously.

JimBob that constantly is caressing the trigger during normal target practice- he's going to be a safety issue and one slip and whoever is on his side will likely catch a round. Or JimBob might just be really tired and start getting sloppy.

Do NOT make the mistake of going "well Jo Jo was in the military so I just KNOW he knows this stuff." God Bless the military but I've worked quite a few mil guys that couldn't grasp stuff like this, or ones that carried a weapon everyday for a year (during tours) but never touched one since. Don't just ASSume that someone is safe. You know what happens when we ASSume and what it makes of u and me? :

You can get a lot out of stuff like this just running dry drills. One thing to "check" everyone safety, muzzle discipline, etc. is to take the mag out of the weapon, cycle the bolt, then put the mag back in. Then you make the rule- no safeties are to be put on while you do the dry run. At the end of the session everyone gets in a circle and "snaps them off"- i.e, dry fires there weapon (pointed in a safe direction of course) . If someone doesn't snap, well they screwed up. Likewise if your in the middle of a drill and someone hears SNAP! everyone freezes to see where the MUZZLE IS POINTED:xeye: Hopefully it's straight up or straight down.

This is typically the best way to get started, people are still carrying there weapon, they are still under the responsibility of not sweeping you, watching there trigger control, etc. and they are ACCOUNTABLE.

FWIW, I've witnessed instructors at nationally known firearms schools have AD's on the range (two people down from me one time ) so above all, do not assume that everyone will be safe.

Again, this isn't something you want to do first time out, nor with people you don't know- know as in you've done this a dozen times in the past with.

Lowdown3

 

[Brew]

Yep, I have to agree, your going to learn to stay down and find cover a lot easier if you leave them paint balls in the deep freeze overnight.

 

[OlympicArmsFan]

Hey all thanks for the feed back and info. The other site I posted this on thought it was a crazy idea. This is the best survival board to ask questions and learn from.


The car ambush I was thinking of is on a road that is family owned it goes around a small hill with a cabin on it and woods thick woods on both sides. Also a bunch of houses on this road that is all family.

The ambush I wanted to set it up to where a group attacks and a group in the car defends either all survive or make one or two our of the group not. I would use paintballs to do this part so we know when we have been hit. I would not use the car for safty for very long other then to look and see where the fire is coming from and try to move in the other directions.

You guys are giving me a lot of great feed back on this and making my mind go deeper into this and think it out more.

All my bug out spots are about the same with roads and land some are a little more open land then the other but all have natural springs and canned food. They also have a lot of wild game unless thats gone when SHTF happens.

The paintballs being frozen sounds like it would hurt more lol putting a cup on the list now.

 

[voiderest]

Making the paint frozen could make safety gear useless, not sure though. If you want the paint to hurt more make it go faster. If you want to learn cover study it. Maybe look into how the military might train on the topic of cover. Thinking now maybe if you use paper in frames for wall it could allow for a bit of learn. That is if the paint or airsoft goes thru it, I think it would but test it before going to the trouble. Btw I never have worn a cup when pbing, that pain could be some good motivation. That said a mask is a must, not aware of what is really needed for airsoft but some kind of eye gear for sure.

Edit: they make mini-paintballs for airsoft, think its for target practice

 

[OlympicArmsFan]

Making the paint frozen could make safety gear useless, not sure though. If you want the paint to hurt more make it go faster. If you want to learn cover study it. Maybe look into how the military might train on the topic of cover. Thinking now maybe if you use paper in frames for wall it could allow for a bit of learn. That is if the paint or airsoft goes thru it, I think it would but test it before going to the trouble. Btw I never have worn a cup when pbing, that pain could be some good motivation. That said a mask is a must, not aware of what is really needed for airsoft but some kind of eye gear for sure.

Edit: they make mini-paintballs for airsoft, think its for target practice

I didnt know they made mini-paintballs for airsoft. I have not really been around these but have seen a few. I was in a Military Surplus shop and saw an M14 and went around looking as I put some stuff on the counter to buy I saw the red tip on it. The gun looked pretty real and I asked the guy behind the counter about it he said they get them in all the time and other makes that look really real. He said that he had more then one person think it was real.

I just think these are really good training tools and all of you are giving me more and more ideas of how I can train and work with others. Keep them coming.

 

[Thedragon]

It would be a good idea to train on how to search bodies safely, dead or alive.
Also some urban tactics, a deserted building may not be as it appears.

 

[Lowdown3]

Don't fire paintballs at the vehicles. I know it's sounds like good training but if someone's gun is jacked up the LEAST little bit, you'll have dents ALL over the place. Ask me how I know....:xeye:

 

[wildjo]

I'd sign up if it were offered near me.

 

[killdeer]

for indoor tactics Paintball guns are great, there is even a line of paint ammo not for civilian market that police use for training.

However, if you train to much, then the groups focus will be to close. Tell you what, have a person in the open walk 500 yards away then lie down. Remember that is in the open while your watching, now just imagine where the focus needs to be.

Close unit tactics, dwelling entering and clearing, and movement with fire, paint ball guns are great training tools. However that is pretty much where it ends.

 

[OlympicArmsFan]

for indoor tactics Paintball guns are great, there is even a line of paint ammo not for civilian market that police use for training.

However, if you train to much, then the groups focus will be to close. Tell you what, have a person in the open walk 500 yards away then lie down. Remember that is in the open while your watching, now just imagine where the focus needs to be.

Close unit tactics, dwelling entering and clearing, and movement with fire, paint ball guns are great training tools. However that is pretty much where it ends.

Good point and point taken on that.

I wouldnt use a good car or truck to do an ambush type deal. I would get a junk car (with windows) and just have it setting there on wheels that it can be moved.

Also I would run the drills if they get hit that means they are dead no return in five minuets after you heal this would be more real world as everyone would have to pick up the slack. Also if you missed your gear in the car when it all went down no pause to grabe it its gone.

I want to run these as six man teams and break it down to three man teams and so on and so on.

Keep the ideas coming thanks everyone.

 

[linksys1169]

You could try Simunitions. Not sure if they're available to the general public though.

http://www.simunition.com/about_simunition/about_simunition_en.php