I see it also, but offer my assistance rather than standing back laughing bout it

 

you got me wrong, I don't indicate any kind of disapproval or superiority. it's not my place (or anyone's) to but in without being asked. I always offer assistance when asked.

you read it wrong there.

 

I only shoot on private property, so I haven't seen it.

 

The only time I go to a range ,it's a very private gun club is for instruction , and the instuctor and other student have their Scat together

 

I tried this and it helped me alot:

 

I wasn't intending on demeaning you at all....I just stated when I do if I see it.

 

I'm not demeaning anyone either. Because I'm not an expert, I'll borrow some quotes from a real expert just to make an observation:

"Gunfights:
"It’s real different when the bad guy shoots back. It doesn’t mean you’re going to lose, it just makes the story more interesting afterward."

"If you're not shootin', you should be loadin'. If you're not loadin', you should be movin', if you're not movin', someone's gonna cut your head off and put it on a stick."

There are certainly guys on any range who demonstrate less-than-perfect stances.

But in a real-world gunfight if you're thinking about your modified Weaver or Isoceles stance, you're probably focusing on the wrong thing.

Some of the training gunfights I've watched have involved guys opening doors, guys on ladders, guys climbing stairs, guys shooting from beneath trucks, and guys getting out of cars. It's a come-as-you-are proposition, and what counts are rounds on target.

So, next time you're at the range and you see these guys with the dubious stances, take a minute and look at their targets. If they've grouped their rounds into a 7" pie plate regardless of the range, whatever they're doing seems to work for them.

If it's a choice between slow and pretty, or fast and accurate but the shooter looks like a yard sale, I'll go with ugly but fast and accurate.

Only hits count, and the guy who hits first generally wins the fight, or at least that's the way to bet.

YMMV.

 

Grotius, I hear you, but not my point. there are reasons stance and grip are important. for the exact reasons you stated; hitting the target.

 

Most people do not have a clue it's sad.

Trigger control and front sight focus are king for shot placement.
Solid platform and proper grip are for fast repetitive delivery vehicle for above.

Weaver/isosceles/prone/flat on back/on side/etc... , does not matter as long as it's enough to deliver the fundamentals.

 

Worse than stances are some of the unsafe practices that I have seen on ranges, particularly on "professional self defense firearms" courses. Have you ever noticed people who tend to unconciously point their loaded weapon in the general direction that they are looking? Stuff will curl your hair.

 

As long as you have proper sight alignment and proper trigger control, stance and position mean little.

Having shot on the move, from behind cover, upside down, around stuff and things that would make an IPSC judge disqualify me for years, I can say that static shooting is fine for the 'range'. It has little to do with real life.

Weaver is a great stance, but falls down in real shootings. It's been proven repeatedly, when the feces hits the rotary impeller, most shooters including those trained in Weaver resort to Isosceles, or the dreaded point shooting.

Those times I've had to drag out my sidearm, I've been very busy trying to hide my 6', 200 odd pounds behind a 1911. While trying to do that, I'm trying to get to actual cover. Something that stops bullets.

What stance did I use? Whatever worked. One handed while feeling along the wall for the hallway behind me, two handed with my off hand thumb operating the tac-light on the Glock. I've shot my G21 upsidedown with my off hand to prove its reliability, and shot a respectable group.

Front sight, press.
Repeat if needed.

Weaver is great for those times you can use it.
Isosceles is great for those times you can use it.
Point shooting is great for those times you can use it.

They all work, they all have their place.
Practice them all.
They're all tools in a toolbox.

 

I was about to say that any "formal" stance is pretty stupid looking when one tries to do it while running for cover. :thumb:

I can certainly understand bulleye type shooters . . or wait, lets broaden that to recreational competitive shooters putting significant focus on proper form. It IS important as an aid to recoil control for . . . lesser experienced, shooters.

So . . . I'm not poo-pooing "formal stance". I guess I'm just saying that your intended use of the weapon should dictate how your body is positioned. Oh, well, that and whether you are working on a two-way range or not.

Personally, if I had a choice of training with a text book perfect stance or bent over upside down and backwards and hitting what I am shooting at quickly and repeatedly, I'd most certainly go for the latter.

 

agreed, Whirlibird. agreed. but I consider all of that obvious. good end-point skills must start with some basics. hence, my post.

what you said was/is all true.

 

Back in the 80s it was said that shooting with your strong hand it was best to cant the pistol at a 65 degree angle and with your weak hand in a fist over your heart... This is "out dated" today. Though, I like this method of strong hand only shooting.

For "free style" I enjoy a modified weaver stance... Some people, they dont want to be told how to properly shoot a pistol... Shooting a pistol accurately is HARD, it takes alot of hard work... Some people dont understand... I didnt get "decent" at shooting a pistol until I started shooting IDPA. Now I can shoot along a beer can at 25 yards, strong hand only, all day long.

 

After thousands and thousands of rounds, I have tried about a dozen or so "stances" and only ONE works for me. MY stance. It is ugly and would make any instructor cringe at the sight. Yes, I have had people come up to me and give "suggestions" on better form, stance, etc, etc, to which I ask if they would like to put their shooting to the test. In almost every situation (with the exception of maybe once or twice) I had better groupings and faster speeds. Inevitably it leads to the question...where did you learn to shoot? My reply is always the same. The US government taught me. After a look of disbelief, I refer to the rule of use whatever means necessary to accomplish the mission. Meaning, use what works for you. I have no problem with people looking at me funny and laughing. All it does is prove how close minded humans can be.

 

After thousands and thousands of rounds, I have tried about a dozen or so "stances" and only ONE works for me. MY stance. It is ugly and would make any instructor cringe at the sight. Yes, I have had people come up to me and give "suggestions" on better form, stance, etc, etc, to which I ask if they would like to put their shooting to the test. In almost every situation (with the exception of maybe once or twice) I had better groupings and faster speeds. Inevitably it leads to the question...where did you learn to shoot? My reply is always the same. The US government taught me. After a look of disbelief, I refer to the rule of use whatever means necessary to accomplish the mission. Meaning, use what works for you. I have no problem with people looking at me funny and laughing. All it does is prove how close minded humans can be.

bolded parts are key. agree 100%. appreciate the response. you, however, are clearly not the folks I was commenting on in the OP.

 

Reading this thread ,it occurd to me a good method of training might be ,not at a regular range but an open field where it is safe to do so .
have a swinging target on a long pendulum. and the shooter must run and fire the whole time in any direction no closer than 30 feet and no further than 50 feet from the target and the pace must be at least only one foot on the ground at a time almost a jog but not a walk.
Introducing 3 of 4 factors of real life.
1. moving target
2. moving shooter,
3. stamina.
Running for cover and shooting is real .
Opposing shooter moving is real.

I'm rigging this one up for my self for fun.

Keep your eye in the ball,
and your shoulder to the wheel,
and our ear to the ground .
Now lets see you work in that position.

 

I had a bad habit of bending backwards when shooting. I didn't even know that I was doing it until someone pointed it out to me.

 

Every ten years or so, some magazine writer tells everyone how the former stance taught is extinct and only the newest thing is proper. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

I shoot with an extreme modified Weaver and I always get some sheep dip telling me how I am doing it all wrong.

Then I look over at the mall commando who is trying to give me pointers and see him dropping a deuce while in his isosceles. I figure he is dropping a deuce because his target is filled with holes evenly spaced 6" apart at 7 yards.

 

See it all the time, use to instruct people while I was in and most times they took the advice and shot well, the others; well I didn't offer my help again and some qualified some didn't.

The first thing you need when practicing is an open mind, and wiliness to learn.

Only your groups will tell if your doing it right or not.

 

Here is my take on 'stance':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2451-MxDTo

 

I only use the weaver at the gun range. If it came to SHTF it all goes out the window. Then it comes down to cover. Bullet stopping cover.

If only armed with a pistol in that respect I would feel seriously out gunned or out of ammunition for my MBR.

Learning to use a firearm properly is key for any shooter. Learning diffrent shooting styles and stances only helps you find that comfort zone while shooting.

Saying one style is best is outlandish. To each is own. Do what feel good to you. But learn some basics first. Like stated earlier. Firearm control is very important. I too have seen some serious no no's at the gun range from so called pros. And from novice alike. Mostly I think people need to take time to learn to be safe with their firearm. Then learn to properly shoot.

Sadly most people I see go buy a pistol or rifle and just run to the range to unload it, get frustrated, then sell their firearm for something else. Without taking the time to learn the firearm or proper ways to shoot. And the biggest issue. Being safe with it.

It's hard not to want to slap people for swinging their firearm around like it's a toy. But this is where people have to learn about being safe. Not only for their own good. But for others as well.:thumb:

 

Regardless of their posture and stance, I'd say if the individual practicing horrible form is still hitting his/her target... 'nuff said. I do try and mentally think about my stance and grip, but I'm more focused on being safe and hitting my intended target. I figure, if I'm doing those two things... everything else will fall into place.

 

Stance isn't as important as obtaining an acceptable sight picture and good trigger press. However all stances are not created equal for combat.

There is a lot that can and has been written about this subject. However I will just bring up one point. When bladed with a threat and leaned back you are not in a great position to move athletically in any direction. But also consider that you have turned your body sideways with the threat. If you are wearing body armor this is bad because you expose the weakest part of the armor.

Most people are not wearing body armor but consider the advantages to taking a shot square on as opposed to the side. A side shot could take you your heart and both lungs with one shot. Squared up most people don't present that much larger of a target, but they are actually minimizing the chances of observing a shot that takes out multiple organs at once.

Plus squaring with a threat and squatting slightly is a natural, hardwired response to a threat. And it allows you to move quickly in any direction.

Of course stances will be modified to fit the tactical situation but the isosceles or modified isosceles has a lot going for it.

 

You have probably seen me at the range. You look over at me and my left foot is barely on the ground. You look again and my right foot is barely on the ground. Another look and one of my feet is way too far forward, or back.

What you may not have noticed was the leaning I was doing or the fact that my knees were so bent I was shooting a foot ot two lower than normal. Something else you may have missed is the fact that my target is as far back as it can go. Once you dismissed my stance you probably didn't notice that all hits were on target. Static shooting is just that. Static. Spend a little time in IDPA or any of the more complex style shooting competitions and you realize that much of the time you need to be able to balance without the "perfect" stance, if there is such a thing.

Being able to shoot with just one stance, or style, will leave you confused, if not dead, in a real life threatening situation.

I hear all the time that my thumb placement is backwards. Backwards for who? For me it is a fast and effective way for me to get from holster to first shot. It is a mechanical motion for me that I put no thought into. It is fluid, fast, and most importantly, effective and consistent On more than one occasion I have had shooters better than me tell me that I am smooth and smooth equals fast.

 

I have fired several, several thousands of rounds while moving. I know a great number of people personally who have shot and killed someone and none of them where moving while they shot. Everyone of them stopped in a natural shooting position and fired.

I think the thing about stances is that they have to be what you would naturally assume under stress or physical activity. Individual players stand differently while stopping during a game of basketball. They stand slightly differently in football, tennis, and baseball. But they all stop in athletic, natural stances, ready to move and react at a moments notice. That is the important thing.

Fitting into a specific mold of exactly how to stand isn't the point. The point is to avoid a stance that is unrealistic to the environment you will be in. Your body will want the ability to go mobile, or will be going mobile during a shooting. Traditional fight or flight response requires mobility. The body will most likely assume a mobile stance. Don't try and fight what your body wants to do under stress. Incorporate it into your training.

If you fight it you will lose time getting out of your natural stance and into "your" shooting stance.

 

I dont advise anyone to aproach a stranger at the range to tell them that there stance is wrong , i wouldnt be happy if you did it to me ,its one thing to teach a friend or young teen but to tell a grown man or woman that ? id be highly offended . Im unsure if my stance is correct or not but i can hit center mass of my target 90% of the time.

 

Stance...

...personally I use a modified weaver stance. It works great, but took a few thousand rounds to get comfortable and become accurate with. :thumb:

 

I appreciate all the responses, thank you. however, I think most of them missed the point I was trying to get at; sloppy, or no, practices and habits.

perhaps I was not clear. oh well!