Survivalist Forum banner
1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
flannel gangster
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just bought some om 10 gas masks from cheaper than dirt does anyone know if these would acctually protect me from an NBC threat or if these are not usefull in that type of situation
 

·
Por la gloria!
Joined
·
539 Posts
NATO Masks ONLY!

There are some problems with the OM-10 Gas Mask.


As you can tell from the picture the filters are NOT 40mm Nato. That means that you have to acquire filters that are made for that specific mask. When TEOTWAWKI occurs, you aren't going to be able to just log-onto the internet and order a pair of filters.

If the filters are still sealed, then they could be of use. However, they must be manufactured within the past 10-15 years, or else they will have expired, even if still sealed.

So if you want my honest opinion about that mask, its junk for WTSHTF.

If you want to purchase a functional mask, but don't want to spend 200 dollars. Then you should go on Ebay and buy a gas mask that accepts 40mm NATO threads (I recommend the Israeli M15). Remember only countries that were part of NATO or 'the west' or are heavily funded by the west (Israel); use NATO 40mm threads.

Once you get a mask that accepts 40mm threads, you are going to want to buy NEW filters. One reliable site is: http://approvedgasmasks.com. There are a variety of 40mm threads ranging in price. You'll probably end up paying more money on the filter than on the gas mask. Remember the filter is the most important part of the gas mask. Not that the mask itself isn't important, but without a good filter...you're dead.
 

·
Member
Joined
·
350 Posts
Something to consider with the OM10 mask. IIRC, it takes about 3 minutes to swap the filters (as opposed to seconds for something like the M15 with the nato filter). Not sure how many you have, but make sure you have at least one extra so when you need to swap the filters, you have a mask to wear while you're changing the filters in the other. (e.g. if you have 4 people, you need 5 masks).
 

·
Molon Labe
Joined
·
280 Posts
Another thing to consider guys...the OM-10 ins't an NBC mask, it was designed for use with riot control agents.

This mask is useless.
 

·
Fire/EMS
Joined
·
766 Posts
I've got an M10 and an M15 Israeli. I like them both, but for SHTF the M15 is going with me. The M10 I bought mainly for giggles/last resort. I'm having problems finding effective filters that are cost effective. I'm using late 80's manufactured 40mm surplus filters now.
 

·
Molon Labe
Joined
·
280 Posts
I've got an M10 and an M15 Israeli. I like them both, but for SHTF the M15 is going with me. The M10 I bought mainly for giggles/last resort. I'm having problems finding effective filters that are cost effective. I'm using late 80's manufactured 40mm surplus filters now.

OM-10 filters are no longer produced, they're East German, based off the M17, you can't find any filters newer than 80's stock, and M17 filters are slightly different, just enough so that they don't work properly in the OM-10.

Your best bet is an M17 for a last resort mask, the OM-10 is a riot agent mask, in the least the M17 has newer filters and will defeat anything but oil based agents or in a radioactive environment, but be sure you purchase the A2 which is the newest variant of the M17, but if you want the best you need an M40.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
This is really unbelieveable. Have any of you ever used a gas mask for more than 10 minutes? I've spent days working in them and i can tell you, you need to understand what you are talking about. That mask would work fine for nearly everything you will come into contact with. The only time you would need something like the M15 style of mask is if you were working with the chemical weapons right at your finger tips.

That mask will stop everything from Mustard gas to the G and V nerve agents. As far as nuclear, it is perfect. No charged particles will get through the filters.

Here is something you need to understand. Having a mask is great but what the hell are you going to do with it on? Have you ever tried running with a gas mask on? Or lifting something heavy with a mask on? A mask like the M15 style is meant for people who are first responders to a chemical attack where the liquid chemical is just laying around. I know, I used to do exactly that. Having a gas mask for a chemical or biological attack also needs to be coupled with being able to wear the mask and perform your functions in it. Nearly half my class in school failed because they got clostrophobic the M15 style mask. That bodes really ill when you need a mask for protection and opted for overkill just for the sake of a heavy duty mask.

In my professional opinion, as long as you can get filters for that mask it will do everything you need it to do. Make sure you understand the rating system for the filters as they make many different densities for different applications. The M17 style mask is a solid mask that will offer protection from anything a SURVIVOR could run into.
 

·
Molon Labe
Joined
·
280 Posts
This is really unbelieveable. Have any of you ever used a gas mask for more than 10 minutes? I've spent days working in them and i can tell you, you need to understand what you are talking about. That mask would work fine for nearly everything you will come into contact with. The only time you would need something like the M15 style of mask is if you were working with the chemical weapons right at your finger tips.

That mask will stop everything from Mustard gas to the G and V nerve agents. As far as nuclear, it is perfect. No charged particles will get through the filters.

Here is something you need to understand. Having a mask is great but what the hell are you going to do with it on? Have you ever tried running with a gas mask on? Or lifting something heavy with a mask on? A mask like the M15 style is meant for people who are first responders to a chemical attack where the liquid chemical is just laying around. I know, I used to do exactly that. Having a gas mask for a chemical or biological attack also needs to be coupled with being able to wear the mask and perform your functions in it. Nearly half my class in school failed because they got clostrophobic the M15 style mask. That bodes really ill when you need a mask for protection and opted for overkill just for the sake of a heavy duty mask.

In my professional opinion, as long as you can get filters for that mask it will do everything you need it to do. Make sure you understand the rating system for the filters as they make many different densities for different applications. The M17 style mask is a solid mask that will offer protection from anything a SURVIVOR could run into.
Umm medina, when a chemical weapon is released, it is at your finger tips.

The OM-10 will not stop VX or Mustard, thr OM-10's filters are designed to resist CS and like agents.

Yes charged particles will get through it, the filters aren't designed for a N/R environment, the weave isn't small enough to stop the particles.

You have never been in anything chemical related. Everything I wrote is out of the manual.

And the M17 right in it's hadbook states it can NOT be used against agents with an oil base or in a radiological environment.

FYI: The US military doesn't use the M15, we use the M40.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
I was an EOD technician in the USAF for 8 years. I've seen, destroyed, and worked with nearly every chemical weapon in the US arsenal. I've used every gas mask and chemical suit issued by the armed forces and spent many days cooped up in them testing weapons for problems. I've also worked extensively with 5 different nuclear platforms and all the safety equipment needed to work with them.

I can tell you from FIRST HAND experience about these things.

I've been out of the service for 17 years so there may have been some basic changes to things but I wonder how many people on this post can say they have worked in a beudal rubber on a real live chemical weapon. I know what this equipment is capable of and the myths that surround it. Everybody is so damn concerned about what type of mask to get instead of understanding the threat posed and getting a level of protection that will allow them to function like a human being after a disaster. Just being able to breath or "survive" isn't the name of the game. It's being able to survive and then THRIVE after the event. Ever tried eating in an environment where chemical or biological weapons have been used? How about drinking?
 

·
Molon Labe
Joined
·
280 Posts
I was an EOD technician in the USAF for 8 years. I've seen, destroyed, and worked with nearly every chemical weapon in the US arsenal. I've used every gas mask and chemical suit issued by the armed forces and spent many days cooped up in them testing weapons for problems. I've also worked extensively with 5 different nuclear platforms and all the safety equipment needed to work with them.

I can tell you from FIRST HAND experience about these things.

I've been out of the service for 17 years so there may have been some basic changes to things but I wonder how many people on this post can say they have worked in a beudal rubber on a real live chemical weapon. I know what this equipment is capable of and the myths that surround it. Everybody is so damn concerned about what type of mask to get instead of understanding the threat posed and getting a level of protection that will allow them to function like a human being after a disaster. Just being able to breath or "survive" isn't the name of the game. It's being able to survive and then THRIVE after the event. Ever tried eating in an environment where chemical or biological weapons have been used? How about drinking?
While your service is admirable and greatly appreciated, 17 years is a LONGGG time to be out of the loop.

I myself have experience in these fields, I was First Responder qualified to respond to NCBR accidents and disasters, and I know the OM-10 DOES NOT work against chemicals other than CS and OC, it was designed by the Czech to use in riot control. I also know the M17 is NOT to be used in an environment where a chemical or biological agent has an oil base, and the M17 is completely useless in a radiological environment.

If I am also not mistake, the MCU-2/P replaced the Mark V and M17 masks in 1983, (of course as with any item it takes years to filter to every unit) but to me it seems more likely you would have used the MCU-2/P or MCU-2A/P rather than the M17(A1/A2).


Not only that, but I would expect someone who has used and trained with the mask to know how to spell "butyl".

I am sorry, but there are TOO many phony's and fake's on the internet, and someone who is giving FALSE info is not one to be trusted. I know as a FACT the OM-10 is not an NBCR mask, it's merely a riot control agent mask, it wouldn't stop any weapons grade chemical or biological weapon, least of all radiological particles, and the M17 is a design well known for being flawed, and only being designed for Chemical and Biological environment. I can speak with knowledge as of 2009, from both first hand experience and DHS and Joint Service Manuals. In addition ALL personnel (military, FD, PD, SAR, ect... must take ICS classes on terror attacks and natural disasters as of 2004 per HSPD-4). Aside from that when did you use an M15, we don't issue and never have issued M15's, and we have never issued or used OM-10's.

I really am sorry friend, a man's word on the internet isn't worth much, because for all I know you just a surplus store owner, and because people on here have been sharing accurate and up-to-date info we've been hurting your sales of left over, second hand surplus crap.

FYI guys, the only mask you can truly trust is anything modern. M40 and like masks, anything else is flawed, obsolete, or if it's bought surplus was probably flawed or DEMILLED from the beginning, and most foreign made masks purchased as surplus are marked for "Foreign Sales" which are usually the faulty or used masks, we do it when we send gear oversea's.


You guys want readily available info? Either find recently issued manuals or go here http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/defective-masks.htm
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
While your service is admirable and greatly appreciated, 17 years is a LONGGG time to be out of the loop.

I myself have experience in these fields, I was First Responder qualified to respond to NCBR accidents and disasters, and I know the OM-10 DOES NOT work against chemicals other than CS and OC, it was designed by the Czech to use in riot control. I also know the M17 is NOT to be used in an environment where a chemical or biological agent has an oil base, and the M17 is completely useless in a radiological environment.

If I am also not mistake, the MCU-2/P replaced the Mark V and M17 masks in 1983, (of course as with any item it takes years to filter to every unit) but to me it seems more likely you would have used the MCU-2/P or MCU-2A/P rather than the M17(A1/A2).


Not only that, but I would expect someone who has used and trained with the mask to know how to spell "butyl".

I am sorry, but there are TOO many phony's and fake's on the internet, and someone who is giving FALSE info is not one to be trusted. I know as a FACT the OM-10 is not an NBCR mask, it's merely a riot control agent mask, it wouldn't stop any weapons grade chemical or biological weapon, least of all radiological particles, and the M17 is a design well known for being flawed, and only being designed for Chemical and Biological environment. I can speak with knowledge as of 2009, from both first hand experience and DHS and Joint Service Manuals. In addition ALL personnel (military, FD, PD, SAR, ect... must take ICS classes on terror attacks and natural disasters as of 2004 per HSPD-4). Aside from that when did you use an M15, we don't issue and never have issued M15's, and we have never issued or used OM-10's.

I really am sorry friend, a man's word on the internet isn't worth much, because for all I know you just a surplus store owner, and because people on here have been sharing accurate and up-to-date info we've been hurting your sales of left over, second hand surplus crap.

FYI guys, the only mask you can truly trust is anything modern. M40 and like masks, anything else is flawed, obsolete, or if it's bought surplus was probably flawed or DEMILLED from the beginning, and most foreign made masks purchased as surplus are marked for "Foreign Sales" which are usually the faulty or used masks, we do it when we send gear oversea's.


You guys want readily available info? Either find recently issued manuals or go here http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/defective-masks.htm
WEPS, other than spouting nomenclatures and taking a class, when have you EVER worked with a chemical weapon or any other CBN device? Actually had to deal with a weapon that was damaged and the chemical leaking? You wouldn't know a chemical attack until someone told you about it. When have you actually put any of this into practice. NEVER. You were qualified but never PERFORMED.

Do you know what EOD stands for? All the agencies you mentioned would just call guys like me when there was a problem and we would actually deal with the problem.

My whole point was to stop the useless banter about what type of mask and offer a different perspective about what to look for in a mask under the conditions of a civilian trying to survive an attack.

The average joe, you included, wouldn't have a clue until it was too late that a chemical or biological weapon was used.
 

·
Molon Labe
Joined
·
280 Posts
WEPS, other than spouting nomenclatures and taking a class, when have you EVER worked with a chemical weapon or any other CBN device? Actually had to deal with a weapon that was damaged and the chemical leaking? You wouldn't know a chemical attack until someone told you about it. When have you actually put any of this into practice. NEVER. You were qualified but never PERFORMED.

Do you know what EOD stands for? All the agencies you mentioned would just call guys like me when there was a problem and we would actually deal with the problem.

My whole point was to stop the useless banter about what type of mask and offer a different perspective about what to look for in a mask under the conditions of a civilian trying to survive an attack.

The average joe, you included, wouldn't have a clue until it was too late that a chemical or biological weapon was used.
When exactly where you in an NBC attack? You worked in a control environment.

Explosive Ordinance Disposal, I've worked with a few guys from EOD.

So exactly what facilities did you work? Systems?

My friend I don't doubt your service, but your trying to sell snake oil. I know the OM-10 is worthless, but your still trying to sell it to me. I'd rather be broke and alive, than dead.

Yeah I was qualified, which puts me in a near position as you, I retained the same learned knowledge as you, I fortunately lack any response experience.

Ok I can respect your input, but when your trying to get people to buy a mask that is by far a surplus piece of rain gear they no longer make filters for (a mask btw that was made for riot agents), I can't let that stand idle.

As of right now we stand the same ground. I however want to ensure the safety of my fellow survivalist, not try to help him skimp on protection.

I've seen some of your posts, and they directly contradict KNOWN and PUBLISH manuals from the same place you served. I know the M17 is useless in a radioactive environment, it was never designed to be used in one. I also know it is useless in a CB environment if the agent has an oil base, and that is straight from TM 34240-279-10, and buy any mask surplus is asking from it, most are broken or DEMILLED from the start.

I may not be a first responder anymore, but I damn sure am not entrusting my life in an NBC environment to a $15 mask from cheaper than dirt.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
I'm not asking people to buy a mask. I don't have a store, or offer anything for sale. I never will. Every mask has a shelf life, maintenance schedule, and must be maintained in a serviceable condition to protect against anything. Even the most basic masks from 3M can provide a very basic level of protection. You can make a mask protect against anything if you understand what you are trying to protecting against. It's that simple.

But if you have really had training then you should know that in the world of chemical weapons you will never be wearing a mask when the explosion happens. For the most part, the only way anyone will ever know is when things start dying under very weird circumstances.

The only thing I try to tell people is to look at a dual filter design. It has a much better capacity for air and will offer the same protection against the treats. It's as much about protection as about being able to actually do something in the mask.

In your words what is a radioactive environment?
 

·
Molon Labe
Joined
·
280 Posts
I'm not asking people to buy a mask. I don't have a store, or offer anything for sale. I never will. Every mask has a shelf life, maintenance schedule, and must be maintained in a serviceable condition to protect against anything. Even the most basic masks from 3M can provide a very basic level of protection. You can make a mask protect against anything if you understand what you are trying to protecting against. It's that simple.

But if you have really had training then you should know that in the world of chemical weapons you will never be wearing a mask when the explosion happens. For the most part, the only way anyone will ever know is when things start dying under very weird circumstances.

The only thing I try to tell people is to look at a dual filter design. It has a much better capacity for air and will offer the same protection against the treats. It's as much about protection as about being able to actually do something in the mask.

In your words what is a radioactive environment?
I can agree if you have the proper and necessary gear you can but the spectrum is very wide and the OM-10 (i feel retarded bring this up yet again) doesn't have filters for NBC.

I know, that or you've got chem testers going off like crazy, which won't be put out unless chemicals are suspected in the area.

Radioactive particles, the M17 was never intended for that use.
 

·
Forgiven
Joined
·
2,301 Posts
Radioactive particles, the M17 was never intended for that use.
1992 FM 3-4, p. 17:
It (M17A1/A2) also is not designed for radiological protection. However, worn properly, it provides added alpha and beta dust inhalation protection, and soldiers should wear it in all known situations until the contamination is identified.

Doctrine in the 80's & 90's was to wear the mask.

2003 FM 3-4, p. II-14: IPE reduces the amount of contaminants
that can enter the lungs and the potential for skin burns from beta and alpha particles.

Same doctrine, different mask.
 

·
Molon Labe
Joined
·
280 Posts
1992 FM 3-4, p. 17:
It (M17A1/A2) also is not designed for radiological protection. However, worn properly, it provides added alpha and beta dust inhalation protection, and soldiers should wear it in all known situations until the contamination is identified.

Doctrine in the 80's & 90's was to wear the mask.

2003 FM 3-4, p. II-14: IPE reduces the amount of contaminants
that can enter the lungs and the potential for skin burns from beta and alpha particles.

Same doctrine, different mask.

Which is understandable, with a whole force behind you ready with decon stations, extra filters, clean tents, and the means to combat radiation poisoning, ect... wearing the mask isn't an issue, but in a disaster situation, you will have no fall back, there is no major force behind you at the ready. A single man does not have the means to travel across a large area on foot with a mask that has filters only guaranteed for 12 hours...and with the M17 there is not simple way to change the filters, you have to remove the mask.

Even wearing a piece of clothing over the mouth improves your chances, but we want the ability to continue operations and egress the area, not bidding time to a guaranteed death. Of course the manual says to continue to wear the mask, wouldn't set right if it advised removing it.

And without a MOPP suit, the mask is useless against Beta radiation particles, the skin will absorb it, you'd need something thick like a Chemical suit or the like to defend against it.

And you also must have filters that are current, and they can't be training filters, not to mention the intake covers must be cleaned because dust gets caught in the outer weaved cover, along with the rubber intake valve. Lets not forget upkeep and maintenance, so what happens if a piece of you mask is damaged? Not like you can go to supply and draw a new mask, or called NSN and order new parts, heck don't even have a DRMO to rely on for anything. you'd need multiple masks for spare parts, then what happens if the other mask are damaged as well? Buying surplus is not guaranteeing you'll get quality or even well used gear, and they don't produce the M17 anymore, haven't for a while.

I haven't seen any filters available for civilian sale newer than 88' and a good portion of other parts also have shelf life, and if you don't know how to properly care for a mask, butyl rubber can be eaten away by simple acids like those in grass, and what happens if you allergic to butyl, and lets not forget the rare eyesight inserts for those with glasses.


EDIT: Just saw where the DoD is putting a "Cease Sales" order on all M13A2 series filters and CB Hoods for the M17 per ITAR, claiming the filters and hoods are "Sensitive Military Equipment"
 

·
Forgiven
Joined
·
2,301 Posts
Any NBC equipment, especially masks, need frequent preventive maintenance. In addition to non-training filters and clothing, boots & gloves to protect the rest of your body, you'll need detection equipment and as much intel as you can get to make sure you aren't heading into a hotter zone. You'll eventually need to decon and that takes a clean area and other people to do that properly. Even if you have all the proper gear, your protection is temporary and you need more specialized gear if you encounter heavy contamination like EOD has to deal with.

As a civilian, I have a lot fewer options than the military does.

If I'm in the immediate area of an NBC attack, I can put a wet T-shirt over my mouth and nose and try to sprint out of the hazard area. If I'm downwind, I would run perpendicular to the wind direction.

If I am home, I can turn off the A/C & heat, shelter in place in an interior bathroom using plastic sheets and duct tape and listen to the radio for the all clear. Having a mask and detector kit or paper gives me a chance to get out if the agent is persistent. I would go for a modern MSA/NIOSH approved mask over an obsolete military one. Household bleach and water is my decon plan.

If I am nuked, my best bet is an underground shelter for a couple weeks. Hope I get a couple days of notice to start digging up my back yard. Having a mask might keep me from inhaling as many alpha particles. If I wanted to raise my capability a little more, I would spring for a NukAlert or some kind of detection gear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Any NBC equipment, especially masks, need frequent preventive maintenance. In addition to non-training filters and clothing, boots & gloves to protect the rest of your body, you'll need detection equipment and as much intel as you can get to make sure you aren't heading into a hotter zone. You'll eventually need to decon and that takes a clean area and other people to do that properly. Even if you have all the proper gear, your protection is temporary and you need more specialized gear if you encounter heavy contamination like EOD has to deal with.

As a civilian, I have a lot fewer options than the military does.

If I'm in the immediate area of an NBC attack, I can put a wet T-shirt over my mouth and nose and try to sprint out of the hazard area. If I'm downwind, I would run perpendicular to the wind direction.

If I am home, I can turn off the A/C & heat, shelter in place in an interior bathroom using plastic sheets and duct tape and listen to the radio for the all clear. Having a mask and detector kit or paper gives me a chance to get out if the agent is persistent. I would go for a modern MSA/NIOSH approved mask over an obsolete military one. Household bleach and water is my decon plan.

If I am nuked, my best bet is an underground shelter for a couple weeks. Hope I get a couple days of notice to start digging up my back yard. Having a mask might keep me from inhaling as many alpha particles. If I wanted to raise my capability a little more, I would spring for a NukAlert or some kind of detection gear.
Excellent post!! The reality is just as you put it. I hope this community will understand the level of misinformation put forth. It's really nobody's fault here but the information system is designed that way. Every technical manual in the military has pages that are classified so the civilian sector will never get the "whole" story. We had TM's that had 3 different classifications and depending on the situiation depended on the pages of the TM anyone could access.

I had a CNWDI security clearance and I can tell you that I wasn't shown, told, or educated on very specific aspects of nuclear weapon design for a purpose. I could take apart any weapon ever built and render it safe(I have done that) but they made sure that weights and material makeup wasn't a part of the program. For good reason, too much information and need to know. The very same thing happens in the chemical and biological arena.

I would love a top line mask for my family should the need arise but I can tell you that a bra mask and some knowledge of the situation will help a great deal. You can only get better from there.

Any mask will offer some protection and the ability to evacuate the area to safety. After all that is the name of the game. :thumb:
 

·
Molon Labe
Joined
·
280 Posts
patcash very aggressive and informative, in the debate on masks, I lost sight of the true objective, thinking in the process of someone trying to respond rather than survive, I agree with Medina, superb post.

You about hit every nail on the head, as if reading from the FEMA Guide itself. :D:

Medina, lets just agree that based on what we both know, and our experience (yours outweighing mine) and you being more from the survival standpoint in our discussion had the proper idea from the start, I was busy thinking from a different standpoint, thinking of running operations in a contaminated area, which isn't the case here, but to egress the area and survive to fight another day.
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top