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The single caveat I'd add - and I have absolutely zero statistics with which to back up any population % figures or cultural analysis - is this: clearly there were a LOT of Russian citizens who, when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, found themselves suddenly living in what became the independent sovereign state of Ukraine. These were Russian workers who transferred to the Donbas region because of the wealth of mining, resource extraction, and manufacturing jobs that existed in this area that needed workers to fill.

"(In) the good old days, when Donbas was hailed as a “Soviet workers’ paradise”, its blue-collar residents, especially coal miners and steelworkers, enjoyed hefty salaries and plenty of perks. They had free healthcare, free education and dirt-cheap vacations to Crimea or even the “socialist camp,” or Moscow-friendly nations of Eastern Europe – Bulgaria or Poland. Hundreds of thousands of people flocked to Donbas from all over the USSR – and mostly switched to Russian. The 1991 Soviet collapse was painful and disorienting to the USSR’s 287 million of its denizens, but it hit Donbas especially hard."

How Ukraine’s Donbas has ‘evolved’ under pro-Russia separatists

So these were Russian citizens, spoke Russian, had family in Russia, and thought they were just moving to a different region of the Soviet Union, and when it suddenly collapsed in 1991 they were no longer in Russia. And they weren't happy about it. "By the time of the Soviet Census of 1989, 45% of the population of the Donbas reported their ethnicity as Russian. In 1990, the Interfront of the Donbas was founded as a movement AGAINST Ukrainian independence."

These are same "Russian Separatists" who have welcomed Russian annexation of the Crimea and have advocated for Russian annexation of the Donbas. They've actively been fighting a civil war with the Ukrainian government since 2014.

Given current circumstances, if the Russian Federation offered these people a relocation package back to Russia I have every expectation that - to escape a war zone and given the destruction of their homes and factories, etc., and possibly the inevitable recognition that the territory belongs to Ukraine and - barring Russian annexation - will one day be Ukrainian again, these people very well may be volunteering to be returned to Russia with their families and neighbors, etc. And they collectively constituted some 45% of the entire population of the Donbas and Crimea.

I'm positive that Ukrainian refugees are caught up in the exodus as well, and probably have been relocated against their will - except that currently they are out of the war zone. But I'm also positive that a huge percentage of the population flow into Russia likely consists of Russian Separatists who are tired of fighting in Ukraine, recognize that the Donbas will be a war zone into the foreseeable future; and simply want to be Russian citizens again living in Russia. So they accepted the relocation package. Russia is certainly "stealing" some portion of that population being repatriated to Russia - but the percentage of that population who want to return to Russia is probably quite high as well.


No mention of the fact that a few Russian made famines killed off most of the Ukrainians in the area so Stalin to keep the farms working repopulated the area with Russians who took over the empty farms and houses. They often had to move the bodies out of the houses before moving in.
 

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Which calls into question why Turkey is a NATO member in the first place.
I asked a Turk pal about it on a Pakistan military forum... this is what he said. Something to do with Sweden letting PKK terrorists stay in Sweden... not about the F-35 (which I find hard to believe).

Apparently some countries in Europe like to poke Turkey in the eye from time to time (true) and this is a reaction.
Font Screenshot Multimedia Number Software


Why is Turkey a NATO member??? Well... they guard the Bosporus... they are the edge of Asia and the start of Europe... and one of the few Muslim countries that are actually good at fighting, They have a fine military tradition going even further back than the Ottoman Empire. Not an accident our flags look alike. ;)

Y'all do realize that in the first 6-8 months of WW2 the USA was getting our butts kicked pretty regularly despite Valiant efforts at Battan , Corregidor and Wake Island. Etc.
It takes a bit of time for your logistics to kick in... for the factories to switch over from making toasters to start making aircraft. But when it kicks in, the fun starts.
 

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Poland may actually welcome being next. They have some anger issues to work out with the Russians. Take back some of the lands that make up part of Belarus. Would serve Belarus right for being on the wrong side.
 

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Poland may actually welcome being next. They have some anger issues to work out with the Russians. Take back some of the lands that make up part of Belarus. Would serve Belarus right for being on the wrong side.
Maybe if Putin wants to get rid of Nazi's, he should start by looking in the mirror. Because his actions are very similar to those of Hitler.
 

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....His office is dark and stuffed with the paraphernalia of war and espionage, sandbags stacked on its windows, machine guns piled on the floor, a spare rifle magazine on his desk used as a paperweight. ...He showed little emotion, smiling only once as he said in English, "I’m optimistic".
:unsure: Hmm....
:geek:


...Something about the whole thing just doesn't sit right with me ... The Left has been wrong about absolutely everything for years, and if they want something this bad, then there's something fishy going on. ...
Very much agree, and Honestly - I really Do believe Strongly that it All is 'tied in', somehow, to the 'Great Reset' Plan, of the NWO Cartel.. Whether Putin is one of Klauses 'fishing poles' (with Ukraine as the horribly-tragic 'bait'.. :( ) Or he just decided to 'Go MRGA', and said 'Hyuck it, I'm gonna do what I see best for Russia, not this NWO 'Love-in Climate-crap', etc.. Not sure, but..

..Sure-seems like, as you posit, that There Definitely Is 'more than meets the eye' (ie: these almost Unbelievable "tactics" of the Russian forces.. It's like a sad, tragic Benny Hill skit :rolleyes: to the 'Why' of all this.. And it sure as Heckfire ain't 'Teh NATO Nazi's on muh Doorstep'.. :rolleyes: Or Whatever-level of 'Corruption' the Ukr-Gov / all It's 'underbelly' (including whatever US-side snakes that entails, as-well..) was / is involved with, just... Nah..

..I'd have to be shown PROOF, that like Every Single Ukrainian - from the Top, down - was like Boiling babies to make NWO Moloch-aide, which was then being pumped by the Demonrats into All the water-supplies of Every Single State over Here... :rolleyes: or something similarly Absurdly 'Austin-Powers-movie sinister' - to Remotely 'buy' the idea that, in Any way, Otherwise, the Ukr People - Even Ukraine, itself - 'deserves' Any of this.. just Nope.

Again, even if ALL the 'Corruption' stuff is 100% True - it's Still like the Most Egregious-case of 'Tossing the Baby out with the bathwater' I can think of in Modern History... :mad: It All just needs to Stop.

..but Sadly, I don't think it Will (..and we're Planning-on that it Won't / will end-up yielding the 'Worst Case Scenario'.. o_O

.02
jd
 

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I asked a Turk pal about it on a Pakistan military forum... this is what he said. Something to do with Sweden letting PKK terrorists stay in Sweden... not about the F-35 (which I find hard to believe).

Apparently some countries in Europe like to poke Turkey in the eye from time to time (true) and this is a reaction.
View attachment 440184

Why is Turkey a NATO member??? Well... they guard the Bosporus... they are the edge of Asia and the start of Europe... and one of the few Muslim countries that are actually good at fighting, They have a fine military tradition going even further back than the Ottoman Empire. Not an accident our flags look alike. ;)


It takes a bit of time for your logistics to kick in... for the factories to switch over from making toasters to start making aircraft. But when it kicks in, the fun starts.
The Turk's are the Descendants of Esau and Ishmael's Daughters.
 

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Until Russia wants America. But then again, if we could aid Ukraine and stop him in Eastern Europe, it would never get that far.
Russia has no way to get here. They don't have a large Navy like U.S. and they are losing planes left and right. The only thing they can do to the U.S. is nuke us or hack something. The chance of that happening increases by U.S. interfering.

I also think U.S. should completely stay out of this war, but they are not. I still think what I did originally , that those in control in the U.S. want to have a war with Russia. They are continuously poking the bear, and trying to weaken the Russian army as much as possible before the "official" war with Russia starts. Just a matter of time. Most wars take many years. They are not over in a few months.

Here is my thought on what would happen if US stayed out of it completely, Russia would win a little faster and get the areas of Ukraine they want, or all of it. That's it. No loss to the U.S. or the rest of Europe.
 

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You guys are just pilling on because it makes you feel better about yourselves. All I did was try and answer a question about the possible outcomes of this war. I am not engaging with fantasies about Ukrainians marching to Moscow, because it is ridiculous.
It's amazing to me how fast the news media can get the U.S. population to accept the direction they want them to go.....
( which in this case would be accept that U.S. will defend Ukraine one way or another, because they are supposedly the "good guys" , even if it makes no logical sense for the U.S. to interfer)

This to me is just as bad as the "Karens" during the covid crap. I wished people and countries minded their own business. There would be so much less trouble in the world
 

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Do remember that Turkey used to be focused to the secular. The Islamic theme of today is new - just like much of the Arab states' populations ("Tribes with flags".)

Also remember when Nassar of Egypt was the overal leader of the Arab population world, it was secular-themed. Only after Israel was winning all the big wars (as far as their efforts involved), did political Islam get adopted. By coincidense, $US 7 trillion to the Arab oil barons post the second embargo funded the Islamic presence and ability to expand.... which was done.
 

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The Turk's are the Descendants of Esau and Ishmael's Daughters.
Really? I had no idea....

What I know of them, the "Atraak" (the Turkish people) were supposed to be some Central Asian Mongol-mixed race. However, they don't look Mongol to me... someone did a genetic test and it seems many of them are mostly Greek. Actually, Greek mixed with whatever leftover European people who managed to get conquered by them. Erdogan is more Russian than "Turk".

Please resist the urge to say what I wrote to their face. The last thing they want to hear is that they are Greeks (who became Muslim). Might self-combust....
 

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I think Ukraine would be forced to negotiate a peace deal with Russia and the war would end, at least for now. They would have to give up Crimea and the Donbass and commit to disarm and not pursue NATO membership anymore. Not necessarily a bad thing in my view, as it would mean less death and destruction all around. Ukraine isn't really significant in the big picture. Certainly it is not as strategically important as Taiwan is, at least from the US perspective.
Why do I hear the voice of Neville Chamberlin?

Any "peace in our time" deal would just give Russia a pause to regroup, rearm, shoot a bunch of generals in time for another offensive.

There would be far more death and destruction in the future, not less. And more nations would get involved.
This is the cheapest achievable sustainable peace, by wrecking the Russian capacity and enthusiasm for conquest of its neighbors.


Putin wont stop, hes got his strategic plan he has been working towards for decades
 

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Do remember that Turkey used to be focused to the secular. The Islamic theme of today
They are still very secular. If they are mentioning Islam more, it's only because their President is from an "Islamic" party (right-wing).

As far as I know, they.. and us ... practice a version of Islam (there are at least 83 different kinds of Islam) called HANFI. It's practiced in Turkey, Russia and all countries that end with "STAN". It's anti-Monarchy and often pro-Communist (why we like the Chinese maybe). It is never supposed to be political.

In Turkey, it's more of a Hippy version... the way it's supposed to be.

Also remember when Nassar of Egypt was the overal leader of the Arab population world, it was secular-themed.
Nassar was a small and silly man in a big office.

Encouraged and supported India when India tried to destroy Pakistan in 1965. When we killed all the Indian tanks and gave them a thrashing, it broke his heart. Awwww

the second embargo
If you are talking about the oil embargo of the early 70s, I think it was our idea.

Political Islam ... was started in Egypt I think... but it really took off with the Ayatolla of Rock-a-Rolla. It's a pillar of Shia-ism (the Iranian religion) ....make everything political.

The Arabs are just reacting to the Iranian nonsense.
 

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We finally learn what Erdogan was fishing for to allow Finland and Sweden to join NATO.

"What they're saying:
"We are following the developments regarding Sweden and Finland, but we are not of a favorable opinion," Erdoğan told reporters in Istanbul, according to AP.

  • Erdoğan said Turkey would not repeat the same "mistake" it made by allowing Greece to rejoin NATO's military wing in 1980, arguing that Athens has used the alliance against Turkey in the two countries' maritime dispute.
  • "Furthermore, Scandinavian countries are guesthouses for terrorist organizations," Erdoğan said, according to Reuters. "They are even members of the parliament in some countries. It is not possible for us to be in favor."
The latest: Sweden and Finland's foreign ministers said they would meet with their Turkish counterpart to discuss the issue at a NATO ministerial meeting in Berlin over the weekend.

  • The State Department's top Europe official Karen Donfried also told reporters on a call Friday that the U.S. is "working to clarify Turkey’s position," adding: “It’s not clear to me that Turkey is saying they will oppose."
 

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Russia has no way to get here. They don't have a large Navy like U.S. and they are losing planes left and right. The only thing they can do to the U.S. is nuke us or hack something. The chance of that happening increases by U.S. interfering.

I also think U.S. should completely stay out of this war, but they are not. I still think what I did originally , that those in control in the U.S. want to have a war with Russia. They are continuously poking the bear, and trying to weaken the Russian army as much as possible before the "official" war with Russia starts. Just a matter of time. Most wars take many years. They are not over in a few months.

Here is my thought on what would happen if US stayed out of it completely, Russia would win a little faster and get the areas of Ukraine they want, or all of it. That's it. No loss to the U.S. or the rest of Europe.
The more Putin takes, the more his capacity to take increases.

If he takes Ukraine his goal is going for Moldovia, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia next. Ideally if he could, chunks of Poland and Finland would be great for him to but probably well beyond his reach in this lifetime (and further dwindling with each day of battlefield losses)

Taking Ukraine will give him access to more arms, more industrial capacity, minerals, gas, and ability to take in money to further his military expansion, not to mention offering far better positioning when it comes to a military build up for further invasions.

Maybe since you were openly admiring him earlier, you have more insight into the man, but from what I see of his long history, hes not one for contentment, he just wants MORE
 

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"Furthermore, Scandinavian countries are guesthouses for terrorist organizations," Erdoğan said, according to Reuters. "They are even members of the parliament in some countries. It is not possible for us to be in favor.
So my Turk source was correct.

 

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They are still very secular. If they are mentioning Islam more, it's only because their President is from an "Islamic" party (right-wing).

As far as I know, they.. and us ... practice a version of Islam (there are at least 83 different kinds of Islam) called HANFI. It's practiced in Turkey, Russia and all countries that end with "STAN". It's anti-Monarchy and often pro-Communist (why we like the Chinese maybe). It is never supposed to be political.

In Turkey, it's more of a Hippy version... the way it's supposed to be.


Nassar was a small and silly man in a big office.

Encouraged and supported India when India tried to destroy Pakistan in 1965. When we killed all the Indian tanks and gave them a thrashing, it broke his heart. Awwww


If you are talking about the oil embargo of the early 70s, I think it was our idea.

Political Islam ... was started in Egypt I think... but it really took off with the Ayatolla of Rock-a-Rolla. It's a pillar of Shia-ism (the Iranian religion) ....make everything political.

The Arabs are just reacting to the Iranian nonsense.
Rigel,

Nassar did have the world's spotlight on him as leader of the Arab world. Forgot if he attended the Bandung (Indonesia) Conference of NonAlligned nations even though Cho En Lai of aligned China attended.

Ayatolla Khomeni and his clerics arrived in Teheran from his upscale Paris home in exile arriving in Teheran on a Quai d' Orsay chartered Air France liner. Like I said, much more to all of this.
 

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How many soldiers Ukraine was mobilizing has been a difficult number to pin down. But I'd previously speculated that the Ukrainians outnumber Russian forces. By how much? It was anyone's guess until now. The Defense Minister could be trolling the Russians, but he anticipates having 1,000,000 men/women under arms soon.

Translated:

Ukraine plans to arm a million people to participate in the war. This is the first statement by the Ukrainian authorities on the scale of mobilization

"For the first time, Ukraine has named the number of citizens it plans to mobilize into the army to participate in the war. The Ministry of Defense "focuses on the need to provide 1 million people who will fight the enemy, " Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksiy Reznikov said .

He noted that the escalation of hostilities provoked an explosive growth in defense needs:

“Ukraine was not fully prepared for this. Not a single country in such conditions (thousands of kilometers of a common border against the backdrop of multiple superiority in resources from the aggressor) would be completely ready. But thanks to the preparatory measures taken and the mobilization of the Ukrainian people, the actions of the authorities, which retained control over the country, the defense was organized.

Reznikov said that in the near future Ukraine will defend itself mainly on its own. However, according to him, more than 1.5 thousand Ukrainian soldiers are already learning to operate the equipment supplied to Ukraine by its partners.

Before the war, about 250 thousand people were employed in the Ukrainian army. "


Original source is Reznikov's Facebook page.

"The deployment of the state mechanism takes a lot of formalities, even for a country at war. And not only in the warring Ukraine.

In the end, the processes that will ensure the increase of Ukraine's defense potential have been launched. This applies to both procurement and production of defense items. We are focusing on the need to provide for 1 million people who will be facing the enemy."


My hunch is that the million mobilized civilians will be given basic combat training and then placed in military jobs that best match their civilian skills. Every military has a huge administrative and logistical "tail" that is every bit as important to the fight as the guys "at the tip of the spear". Good move on the part of the Ukrainians.
 
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