We have been sort-of looking for a couple of years now. I say sort-of because we don't really have the funds accumulated yet. What we want, what we need and what we can afford are three very, very different things :xeye:

I was looking for a piece of land around 10-20Ha, for under R750k, that we could turn into a homestead and become self-sufficient. Preferably with some established buildings (house) on it as we would need to give up jobs and (rented) home in Gauteng to move down there to get a quick start. I run a small business from home, that I can run from anywhere in the country with access to post and courier service, but without a salary from the missus and we would be up the creek in terms of having enough funds to build and to survive.

Originally I was looking for a place somewhere in a 'corridor' about 50km wide (from about 40/50km to 100km inland), running parallel to the coastline, from around Jeffries Bay/PE area down to around Swellendam/Montagu area. Too near the coast and you are too close to the bigger cities/towns/townships, too far inland and you start getting serious water supply problems (in the Karoo proper).

At the beginning of last year I actually found an ideal piece of land, in Kzn though of all places (about 80km west of Pmb), 16Ha with two houses and a new log cabin, electricity and good spring water but we couldn't afford to go it alone. Looked for someone else to go in with us and tried to get a deal together three times, with three different people, and all of them dropped out at the last moment (even after we had put in offers). P..sed me off no end. The owners eventually sold it a month or two ago

Getting a bond is a bit of a b.tch though. On any undeveloped land the banks want up to 60% deposit. Land with a house and over 21Ha they classify as a farm and then they go the route of agricultural/business loan and they want full business plans etc. Land with a house but under 21Ha is classified as a "Lifestyle Farm" and it is then possible to get a 'normal' home loan on it.

It would be nice to keep living in the city (where the jobs are) for now and also own an undeveloped piece of land somewhere else, to build up as you please. The problem is travel, money and time. Too far away (which the ideal piece of land would have to be) makes it difficult to visit and spend time improving. It takes a lot of money to improve an undeveloped piece of land (buildings, water supply, off-grid energy/electricity, good soil for growing, security etc). It also takes quite a long time to develop the land to the stage where it can support a family indefinitely.

Still looking, though not as seriously as we would be if we had the funds :

 

and[/B]

It takes a lot of money to improve an undeveloped piece of land (buildings, water supply, off-grid energy/electricity, good soil for growing, security etc). It also takes quite a long time to develop the land to the stage where it can support a family indefinitely.

There are a pile of Americans who have proven you wrong with their log house building methods :

We are too accustomed to brick and mortar in SA. Their costs are surprisingly cheap. But then again, they don't have the challenges we do with geo politics.

This dude in the Knysna area pulled it off.

http://www.logbuilding.co.za/

He claims in 2006 that house on his website cost a total of R880 a square metre to build from start to finish. A 2 bedroom effort of 100 squares is 88K + inflation plus a reduced square metre amount, we looking at what? R120K I think he is on facebrick and gives courses.

I bet your current spot where you live is at least 5 times the value in Gauteng.

If only I could squat on a piece of land like a goddam Malemite shackdweller : , bully the government into letting me apply for a title deed mahala (blacks do it all the time with the RDP thing -pity it is riddled with immense corruption), cough up R120K (the price of an entry level Toyota in South Africa) for the house and you are sorted for your retirement and the upcoming zombie apocalypse sorta...

Edit sarcasm postscript: Then all you have to do is paint yourself black, pretend that you were oppressed by racist whites since 1652 who stole all your kak since Jan Van Riebieck landed and the Irish will build the house for you for free. Free land, free home and you dont even have to move your arse. Kinda like black people on the dole in the UK and the somalis in Minnesota

Black people have it incredibly easy in South Africa.

See here:
http://www.nmtownshiptrust.com/Media/Press-Releases/750-volunteers-to-descend-on-Cape-Town.aspx

 

Another option is to take out a 99 year lease. Most large farms have areas in them which are too mountainous or otherwise unfit for commercial farming... but its still fine for subsistence farming...

 

yeah i also would love something like that. also been looking for land... was going to build a house with the sand bag calearth.com methods.... but decided on a catalan vault style in stead... one day ...


right now one bond is enough .

 

Yip... you have to know farmers and get around to have any chance of a 99 year lease for many reasons. I am not sure how Jappies will fair. Crucially, if the farmer wants to sell the farm one day the buyer may not want other people on the farm, so then the farmer is stuck because of his agreement with you.

Many farmers will consider a 5 year lease with option to extend. It is a way to get in, but does carry some risk. If you build cheaply some of that risk may be offset.

Prices vary hugely... but you can lease a 2 hectare piece of land for as little as R500 pm... up to R5000+ depending on the nature of the land and the nature of the farmer... and what your intentions are.

7 years ago I was offered a 99 year lease for just over 2 hectares of wild for R200 pm. It had a high kopje on the one side and a stream running through a small dam on the other. In the deal the farmer wanted to be the builder and make about 100K profit... I could get the money... but after much “thought” (as it seems now in retrospect) I declined the offer... ... ****

Anyway...

So try really hard for the 99y (Will probably take years) or settle for a low investment 5y lease with extending option (Build low cost ad hoc).

If the farmer is happy with you and you improve the farm in some way after 5 years the farmer may extend your 5 year lease continuously... and if the farmer wants to sell, and you being part of the farm brings some value the buyer appreciates (perhaps security), the new owner may agree for you to stay (signing a new lease).

Owning a piece of land is better in many ways, but a farm runs in the multiple millions. A subdivided piece of land/plot is also very expensive, often it costs as much as a property in the suburbs but you still have to build the house. With all your eggs in one basket, at a very high price, you could have 2 other leased areas for a fraction of the cost.

You may just maybe have the option, After some years, to purchase the piece of land you have been leasing... in this case it may be better if the land borders the farm and can be subdivided without tooo much complication.

Perhaps leasing is then a good option considering price and considering the notion that one may prefer more semi permanent arrangements... in a SHTF eventuality.

 

this is good, I did not know about leases.

 

R300 ish a month to lease 10 000 square meters seems too good to be true. Whats the catch?

COnsider that if you decide to go camping in a tent in some crappy back packer hostel you will pay that amount for three days in a place like coffee bay. (although in the back packer lodge you get facilities)

I would see R2-300 a month as ultra cheap insurance if you have serious bushcraft skills.

At least, it will be a nice camping spot for the price of cable tv.

 

how does one approach a farmer over this? Knock on doors?

 

Find the farmers local pub and speak to the barman? :

 

Jeeez if a place like that existed, I bet they have never heard of English :

I went to a bar in the middle of the desert in Namibia. Only heard German. :xeye:

 

Jawol no fine?

It would be best to make friends with at least one local then, who can get you "inside" info and maybe even put in a good word for you.

 

I love Coffee Bay/Hole in the wall. Spots I also like on the Wild coast are Msikaba, Mbojkie, Le Plat, Port st John’s (second beach to camp, and the forests north of first beach to bush camp). But forget about getting land there anymore... its bad... hundreds of houses have been taken over or destroyed even though the local chiefs had been paid... would never invest there. Plus it’s in the worst area you could possibly want to be in a SHTF situation.... stuck between the blue sea and the other sea made of people.


Seriously – cheaper than DSTV. There are catches! – finding a willing farmer – you almost have to know farmers!

If you put in the effort and meet Many and If you just want to build a small cabin hidden somewhere remote on the farm just as a “weekend/holiday spot” and you offer the farmer use of it when you not there, if you don’t disturb the farm, the plot of land is unusable by the farmer, you have a good reference, you have a great smile or a hot wife (or both)... hell with some luck and lots of coffee, tea, and beer later you should come right for cheap. 5y later 99y if he is happy with you. Farmers are good people and they will treat your cabin, and your use of it, with respect... returning the respect will allow your investment to continue.

Residing permanently will decrease the odds of finding such a spot (willing farmer), which is already difficult, and the cost goes up dramatically.

Once you get a spot and If it’s a “weekend spot” and TSHTF you simply move in... a move the farmer will appreciate for security reasons

 

I love Coffee Bay/Hole in the wall.

I was there as a backpacker testing out bug out bags and that sort of thing. AS I was walking around the local villages that were still stuck in the 18th century, I realised that a lot of the beach front property there occupied by locals is the type of beach front property that rich people would pay millions for.

They have it pretty good, they live in a rich and fertile spot and yet they bitch and moan about poverty and demand that whites surrender their semi desert Free state and Karoo farms as per Malema.

It grates me how they have paradise handed to them and the screw it up and they then demand more and more

 

personally i wanted to get a trust together and buy a plot .. but no one ever seams to like the idea,, simple idea, if you stop paying your portion, you forfeit it to the remaining members...

 

I would not buy into something like that either.

 

Looks like this lease plan is the way to go. Except I don't have a hot wife. Chicks hate me :

 

Who here has any real estate experience in South Africa? I often look at how one must shell out sometimes millions for a patch of vacant grass in places like the western cape (knysna etc) and I often wonder "who first owned that patch of land (besides God) and how did they obtain the land?"

What worked for us was to first look at where we worked and where we lived, and then follow a major road outwards for as far as we thought was reasonable.

The farther away from jobs you get the cheaper the land would be.

I can give you no advice on security, I am afraid, as things in your country are simply more dangerous that I have had experience with!

They have it pretty good, they live in a rich and fertile spot and yet they bitch and moan about poverty and demand that whites surrender their semi desert Free state and Karoo farms as per Malema.

Man does not live by bread alone.Also, you may desire 18th Century life, but apparently they do not.

 

During apartheid the Transkei was handed over to the Xhosa as a semi independent state. In it the Wild coast flourished as a holiday destination built by white people with cooperation from the Transkei authorities. The development brought with it employment which is/was nonexistent in the area. There were grand hotels and lodges everywhere.

In 1994 the destruction started, the once numerous holiday makers dwindled and most of the hotels and lodges were abandoned. Hundreds of private paid for houses were confiscated without compensation. Less than 10% of the tourism trade is left today. The local population who once relied on tourism are now unemployed and poorer than they ever were during apartheid (Fact).

So yes... they stuffed it up for themselves all by themselves

 

I HAVE been rather appalled by how badly things are run in South Africa right now. As near as I can figure it, the current crop of politicians are buying votes instead of bothering to run the country.

 

I would have thought that Americans would have figured this out as far back as Idi Amin at least. In Africa, its "one man one vote one time"

 

There are many cheaper properties in the Karoo, but the living is hard. There won't be any spitting out of fruit pips and trees popping up in a week. Consider smallholdings on the outskirts of small established towns with a predominantly colored population rather than the alternatives. Small town population in uproar 20-40km from you may be as good as it gets, and trouble tends to take a while longer to reach them. I have often hauled out the map books and researched land on the outskirts of tiny dorps away from the main routes. The bugger of it all is finding the place that will allow you web access to continue with work-from-home opportunities - but if you really have to, it may be possible to use the town's only net cafe once a week to do what you have to. We are moving to PE next year and I was very keen to live on the river... but the props are pricey and the fuel costs prohibitive since we have kids in school. If SHTF, a cheap-ass boat with an outboard motor will get you away in an emergency... way up the river to wait until the dust settles enough to think of alternatives.

 

small holdings? You mean like Muldersdrift? Uh nope...

Practically a civil war going on over there.

 

I would say at least 50-60km from a major metropolitan area like Jhb, Pretoria, PE, East London, Bloem, PMB, Durban etc. Muldersdrift is far too close.
20-30km from a large town (Grahamstown, Harrismith, Kokstad, George, Knysna, Oudshoorn, Nelspruit etc).
10-15km from a dorpie (Calitzdorp, Willowmore, Richmond, Underberg, Villiers, Dullstroom, Belfast etc).

 

Ok, here are a few questions for those that like the idea of buying a "piece o' dirt" in a reasonably secure/stable area in SA (either as a basic BO location/holiday spot, as a self sufficient homestead or anything else that comes to mind)...

• What size land would be your ideal and why?
• Where (general location) would your land be and why?
• Would you prefer undeveloped or developed land (house/buildings, elect, water, fences etc) and if developed what would your minimum requirements be?
• If undeveloped land, then what/how would you build/develop it yourself?
• What sort of price range would you be looking at (keep it reasonable, not a "If I won the lottery" type of thing)?

I am seeing quite a bit of vacant/undeveloped land for sale pretty cheap (R50k-R300k) but it is all for sizes ranging from a few hundred m2 to a few thousand m2. In my mind that is far too small. Ideally I would be looking for 5-20Ha as a minimum just so that I have space for my veggies & maybe a few grains, fruits & nut trees, chickens, ducks, rabbits, goats, dam & fish and some decent forest (need firewood).

 

• 
  Lets go for 1 hectare per patriot

• South of the Karoo in the green belt. Mountains block an advance. Roads can be cut off. Catch fishies from the sea for "nyama choma"

• Undeveloped. I have yet to see a developed piece of dirt anywhere in South Africa that was developed by whites without a parasitic township nearby. Mainly our fault since the average retard South African cannot live without his/her fokken meid. They have now learned to follow us around whenever we have developed land. They used our roads (the same ones that no longer exist in mozambique) to drive to De Doorns to cause kak for us.

• We would need to relook at the housing methods employed by the afrikaners as depicted in that racist book "fiela se kind" and "Oupoort" and the type of housing created from local trees. It will get dicey since there are not enough trees in the garden route and tsitsikama forest to house us all.

• Cost of tools to build the cabins in the remote areas. Cost of diesel and diesel generators to speed things up as much as possible.

 

That piece of dirt on the green belt is small. Cant house all of us pale faces at 50 hectares each. There is another thread out there where a Russian dude showed how they dodged famine with their cultural practices of growing their own food. Done on less than 50 hectares from the looks of it. If you over develop the area, then you have another Gauteng. Why bug out then? Just stay in Gauteng and save the petrol and die quietly.

 

Well, where I want to go with this is to adopt the land lease thing in that area if possible. At best it will be a nice holiday home not to far from the holiday retreats of George and Knysna. At worst its breathing room for the upcoming zombie apocalypse

Stone's throw from the George airport too.

 

kuruman? Dafuq? the desert?


(then again the Oranians made a success of it in that area)

 

close to the old battle school ... loads of weapons .most live ammo stored on any base...in za .... not well guarded.. also kuruman has its own water oasis.... independant of the rest of the rivers.. also pretty far from any real bad areas and its not a common choice

 

That piece of dirt on the green belt is small. Cant house all of us pale faces at 50 hectares each.

I was actually only referring to you and yours, as per the below post, not the whole of white SA :

...Once I get my kak together job wise I want to get a patch o' dirt in the Knysna type areas no matter how under developed it is. At worst I can write it off as a gambling loss. At best it will be a bug out location...

size =500m x 500m can do pretty much all you need on space like that with the right know how...

Yup, my thoughts exactly, 25Ha would be ideal for a reasonably sized family. In fact just 5Ha would be sufficient for a family of 4-5 people to be reasonably self sufficient. Enough space for veggies, fruits, a limited amount of grain, chickens, rabbits, a few goats and maybe even a sheep or three. The rest of the 20-odd Ha would be needed for forests (wood supply) and as a water catchment area. Most important though would be that it acts as an 'internal' buffer (security zone) between you any anybody else (direct neighbours or otherwise).

Ok, so who would be interested in something like this then, or better yet this one?

Not sure if this link will work but here is the Google Earth map of the area

 

I was actually only referring to you and yours, as per the below post, not the whole of white SA :


Yup, my thoughts exactly, 25Ha would be ideal for a reasonably sized family. In fact just 5Ha would be sufficient for a family of 4-5 people to be reasonably self sufficient. Enough space for veggies, fruits, a limited amount of grain, chickens, rabbits, a few goats and maybe even a sheep or three. The rest of the 20-odd Ha would be needed for forests (wood supply) and as a water catchment area. Most important though would be that it acts as an 'internal' buffer (security zone) between you any anybody else (direct neighbours or otherwise).

Ok, so who would be interested in something like this then, or better yet this one?
Not sure if this link will work but here is the Google Earth map of the area

leave the wood invest in a solar oven

 

http://www.gumtree.co.za/a-land-plots-for-sale/other/umkomaas-crowder/1001196145190910014252109url]http://www.gumtree.co.za/a-land-plots-for-sale/deneysville/6-hectare-land-for-sale-54-veekraal/1001194316700910356321209[/url]

 

Deneysville? Far too close to the madding crowd for my liking.

 

Ja KK, 3 or 4 guys with R100K each and that 86 or 95Ha open space could go a long way to making the ideal bug out location for a good couple of families :

Each put up their own log cabin or sandbag house, veggie gardens etc - hell anything they want really - share a bit of infrastructure (water, energy etc) and then all pull together for security if necessary :thumb:

 

I am all for the sharing of space, if the space is large enough. If the land cannot be subdivided, then one title holder, with watertight 50 year lease agreements and rules would do me just fine (with regard to land use; water rights, access to outsiders etc.) If the land is large enough, 'neighbours' wouldn't encroach on each other at all and a common emergency contingency plan would add to my sense of security.