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Discussion Starter #1
Too many folks on here and around the net think reading a tattered old military first aid field manual makes them an MD. People are gonna die. Folks are going to bleed out when little Timmy digs into someone's shoulder with a Buck knife trying to pull out a bullet, or turn into a breeding ground for sepsis when nurse-in-training Mayella shoves a home made IV into someone's arm. BAD BAD BAD!

Civvies need to stick with civvie skills. Build a litter and drag your friend to some place to get help. I have seen threads on QuickClot, which when used untrained can cause severe problems. There's been stuff on people throwing surgical kits in their FAK's just because they found them in Cheaperthandirt.

If you guys want to be the "Medic" when it all goes down then get some training, it's that simple. EMT-B costs about $500, Medic costs $1500 roughly, most states are so low on RN's you can get a state grant to pay your tuition, rent, food, gas, AND get a monthly stipend. What's better than getting paid to go to school?

Bottom line, having a bottle of NyQuil in your BOB doesn't make you a doc, stop acting like it before you hurt someone you love.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
"Professionals" kill over 700,000 people a year.

Go figure...
Well if they do it I might as well sit down with a copy of Gray's Anatomy and slice into someone since there's really no hope anyways...

#1. Put forth some real figures. Anyone can slam their face into the keyboard and say 89436 people die every year from eating bad jellyfish. Pull up some real evidence and I'll consider taking you seriously.

#2. Ok, you say 700,000. Sounds like a world figure, but even if that is US based... that's about 1 in 500. Furthermore, how exactly do the pro's kill people? Maliciously? Is there a doc on a rampage with a scalpel? Negligence? Did someone push Chemo meds into a liver failure pt? Are you including DNR pt's, that the pro's can't legally work? Are you including people who die in the hospital due to complications?

I need something to work with here before I can make you look stupid, you've gotta give me a little more than your "Nuh-uh!!!" defense.
 

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I dont care how many die from stupid mistakes made by docs. ie amputating the wrong foot. to how many get saved. the bottom line is before you even think about putting in a iv for blood expansion, digging in to pull a bullet out of a flesh wound. get some formal training. Like Kuting said you can do more damage thinking that your helping than doing nothing.
 

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"Dolt"
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This has been a growing trend lately.

The rules of this forum are clear on this topic.

#23. We have ZERO TOLERANCE for posts promoting Self-Harm to others on the forum, directly and/or indirectly. Doing so will result in severe punishment.
 

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trois pour cent
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This is a topic that has come up more than once over the last year or so.

In the case of a post SHTF medical emergency:
  • No access to hospitals or medical personnel can result in loss of life.
  • No tools or supplies of your own can result in loss of life.
  • No medical training can result in loss of life.
  • Not understanding you don't know what the hell you are doing and doing the wrong thing can result in a loss of life.
  • Some people are going to die regardless of any of the above.
  • Some people will manage to live despite any and all of the above.

The bottom line is, it should be approached like any part of our preps. Have the tools and know how to use them. Learning how to treat emergencies is essential. You should get as much training as you can. EMT, EMT-P, whatever. It has to be hands on not book training. There are opportunities out there if you seek them. Volunteer with a local FD, red cross or even the local hospital if they allow it. It is just as important as storing rice and ammo.
JMO
 

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Discussion Starter #9
This has been a growing trend lately.

The rules of this forum are clear on this topic.

#23. We have ZERO TOLERANCE for posts promoting Self-Harm to others on the forum, directly and/or indirectly. Doing so will result in severe punishment.
To which post(s) are you referring?
 

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Doomsayer
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Deadly Medical Mistakes Exposed

New York, New York - New information has been presented showing the degree to which Americans have been subjected to injury and death by medical errors. The results of seven years of research reviewing thousands of studies conducted by the NIA now show that medical errors are the number one cause of death and injury in the United States.

According to the NIA's report, over 784,000 people die annually due to medical mistakes. Comparatively, the 2001 annual death rate for heart disease was 699,697 and the annual death rate for cancer was 553,251.

Over 2.2 million people are injured every year by prescription drugs alone and over 20 million unnecessary prescriptions for antibiotics are prescribed annually for viral infections. The report also shows that 7.5 million unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are performed every year and 8.9 million people are needlessly hospitalized annually. Based on the results of NIA's report, it is evident that there is a pressing need for an overhaul of the entire American medical system.

The findings, described as a "revelation" by Martin Feldman, MD, who helped to uncover the evidence, are the product of the first comprehensive studies on iatrogenic incidents. Never before has any study uncovered such a massive amount of information with regard to iatrogenesis. Historically, only small individual partial studies have been performed in this area.

Carolyn Dean, MD, a physician and author who also helped to uncover the findings said, "I was completely shocked, amazed, and dismayed when I first added up all the statistics on medical death and saw how much allopathic medicine has betrayed us."
Condition.............Deaths.........Cost..............Author
Hospital ADR............106,000........$12 billion.......Lazarou Suh
Medical error............98,000.........$2 billion.........IOM
Bedsores.................115,000........$55 billion.......Xakellis Barczak
Infection.................88,000..........$5 billion........Weinstein MMWR
Malnutrition.............108,800........--------.........Nurses Coalition
Outpatient ADR........199,000........$77 billion........Starfield Weingart
Unnecessary
Procedures..............37,136.........$122 billion.......HCUP
Surgery-Related.......32,000........$9 billion..........AHRQ85
TOTAL.................783,936.......$282 billion

Nutrition Institute of America
Gary Null PhD, Carolyn Dean MD ND, Martin Feldman MD, Debora Rasio MD, Dorothy Smith PhD
October 2003

Are we 'assuming' doctor's will cease to 'practice' after TSHTF? I would submit that their skills will be even more valuable than they were before.

Broken bones will still need to be set.

Doctor's are not 'gods', they do not know everything, and the Medical Triad that has seized control of modern medicine in America is really not that interested in 'cures', as there is no money in them.

If I were diagnosed with cancer today, right now, I would NOT seek 'their' treatment. I have not been treated by a doctor in over 12 years, and only about twice in the last 20.
 

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Do no harm.Get the training.My skills are not recognized in the Civi world.I know what I'm doing and when it comes time I'll be there for my familly that includes extended familly and anyone in need. Again do no harm ,get the training.

MEDICUS ORDINARUIS
 

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I'm all for training. But is an RN or an EMT qualified to perform surgery as in remove bullets, debreed tissue, sew wounds in the field and nurse that wound back to health?

It would be nice if every survival group had a trauma surgeon in its ranks or even just an EMT or a nurse or even a veterinarian but that ain't gonna happen.

Every serious injury can't be cured by administering first aid and "calling 911" or "getting someone to a doctor". There may come a time when we're stuck all by our lonesome with the life of someone we love on the line. If I don't have the skills of a surgeon by that time and I don't have a nurse or EMT to pass off the burden to I'm going to give the Quick Clot a go or maybe even the minor surgery set I got from Cheaperthandirt.

Again, training is vitally important. Having skilled people on hand is important. But the real world sucks and I'm going to do my best to overcome every obstacle in a time of crisis. The other option is laying down to die or letting someone else die. Aint' happinin'.
 

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There are some of us that have the skills needed.Used to have my own minor surgery clinic when I wasn't in the field Inital evaluation and treatment various injuries from burns to bones.Provided follow up care and education.Sutured and I&D'd of lots of things.Also versed in field sanitation which will be needed if there is a group pf people.Bad conditions ask for problems to happen.Everyone should learn selfcare,"bubby care"...Went to places that were remote not alot of supplies .Could be taking care of 100-5000 personel, thats all their health needs.Including public health ,water analysis/treatment,food sevice sanitation, emergency dental, if we had dog handlers I was the Vet too.Emergency medicine.Just about everything medical.

MEDICUS ORDINARIUS
 

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There have been a couple of brawls on the site lately regarding questions asked by persons who don’t have the certifications or credentials usually considered necessary to practice medicine. Most of the yelling has been caused by contributors who haven’t bothered to make the distinction between requests that are legitimate in purpose and others that are just ill-informed.

Survival requires an encyclopedia of skills that no person can hope to master in one lifetime. That’s why this site was created (ostensibly); to draw upon the experience, training and knowledge of persons whose fields of specialization lie outside of our own. It’s true that some of the posts on the site show a stunning lack of knowledge on the part of the person who submitted them, but that’s where professionals can make their contribution: by educating them, not ridiculing them.

There’s not much question that it’s outright unethical to provide assistance or encouragement to a person who wants to perform procedures in a field for which they are obviously unqualified. Most medical professionals are keenly sensitive to issues of competence; they’ve seen so many screw-ups by their own colleagues that they’re a little hyper-vigilant in this area. If you read them carefully though, very few of the posts that you encounter in this section of the site are from persons who indicate an intent to go out and immediately start practicing their newfound skills on the family dog; most are from persons who simply don’t have the knowledge and vocabulary to form their questions in the way that medical professionals expect.

If you encounter a post in which someone is asking about or advocating a dangerous practice, the best way to steer them away from it is by presenting a courteous, well-reasoned argument illustrated with examples and backed up by evidence. Calling them a rank amateur and bashing them in the head with diplomas and certifications isn’t going to do the job. If anything, it’ll just set them more firmly on their course, this time without benefit of competent advice. Show them the right way, give them sound counsel, and you’ve made a friend who may be able to return the favor someday.

Remember, trooper: In this life, in most things, we’re all novices.
 
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Discussion Starter #15
Not trying to start a fight here by any means, all I'm saying is I wouldn't let some cityboy under my hood to start wrenching around. Get my drift?

The insta-experts look down on so many others. The bug out fanatics think that if you're actually storing food you're an idiot. Too many opinionated folks on here to see through the BS to find out what they really need. I'm simply trying to point out that pocket MD's are more of a risk to themselves and those around them than anyone else...
 

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Let's assume a civil war breaks out in America or even worse, a small scale nuclear attack. I would be beneficial to be aware of something beyond what in the medicine cabinet. It would at least be nice to be able to do what they did back in the Korean war. Some people just want to be one step ahead of the game.
 

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There are some of us that have the skills needed.Used to have my own minor surgery clinic when I wasn't in the field Inital evaluation and treatment various injuries from burns to bones.Provided follow up care and education.Sutured and I&D'd of lots of things.Also versed in field sanitation which will be needed if there is a group pf people.Bad conditions ask for problems to happen.Everyone should learn selfcare,"bubby care"...Went to places that were remote not alot of supplies .Could be taking care of 100-5000 personel, thats all their health needs.Including public health ,water analysis/treatment,food sevice sanitation, emergency dental, if we had dog handlers I was the Vet too.Emergency medicine.Just about everything medical.

MEDICUS ORDINARIUS
Good to know someone like you is a fellow Floridian. It would be nice if you were close by but Florida is a big state!
 

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"Dolt"
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There is a problem here.

Reading a Physician Desk Reference does not a physician make.

When someone comes into this section and asks a question that is way outside their lane I will call them on it. I also make the disclaimer that they CAN get training on said subject. This does not mean reading a how-to-surgery book and run around doing cardiac by passes on everyone. Reading the subject is great but until you have someone train you, its not something you should be doing.

I clock approximately 600-700 hours a year of medical training, and thats as a multi-specialty "professional". Thats hands on training with other professionals in their field of study. Why do I train so much? Because there is ALOT to learn. Even if I went on to my PHd, I would still not know it all and would still train as much as I could.

Its not elitist for me to say dont do something. Its because I know what can go wrong if improper technique is used. I also know the common mistake which are made. So mistakes are petty, some can cost a life.

I have made it clear that I will not advocate some who will do more harm then good. Kev has stated the same thing and its listed in his rules section in case you might not have read them.

This section is not heavily moderated because the members do a good job of policing themselves. If the current trend continues I will have no problem asking Kev to come clean some house.

I will not have people giving advice or asking for advice which will cause harm to others, especially when the person being harmed is more then likely critical to being with.

Just because it becomes a SHTF or EOTWAWKI, the basic rules for medical treatment do not change. The procedures used do not become magically easier. With the increased stress they become much much harder. This would not be a good time to try your first ever needle chest decompression. It would not be a good time to try out that new chest tube, field surgical kit, or tracheotomy kit you got off ebay last month.

Train before hand. Its that simple. If your to lazy to train up first then you dont need to be asking about it here.
 

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There is a problem here.

Reading a Physician Desk Reference does not a physician make.

When someone comes into this section and asks a question that is way outside their lane I will call them on it. I also make the disclaimer that they CAN get training on said subject. This does not mean reading a how-to-surgery book and run around doing cardiac by passes on everyone. Reading the subject is great but until you have someone train you, its not something you should be doing.

I clock approximately 600-700 hours a year of medical training, and thats as a multi-specialty "professional". Thats hands on training with other professionals in their field of study. Why do I train so much? Because there is ALOT to learn. Even if I went on to my PHd, I would still not know it all and would still train as much as I could.

Its not elitist for me to say dont do something. Its because I know what can go wrong if improper technique is used. I also know the common mistake which are made. So mistakes are petty, some can cost a life.

I have made it clear that I will not advocate some who will do more harm then good. Kev has stated the same thing and its listed in his rules section in case you might not have read them.

This section is not heavily moderated because the members do a good job of policing themselves. If the current trend continues I will have no problem asking Kev to come clean some house.

I will not have people giving advice or asking for advice which will cause harm to others, especially when the person being harmed is more then likely critical to being with.

Just because it becomes a SHTF or EOTWAWKI, the basic rules for medical treatment do not change. The procedures used do not become magically easier. With the increased stress they become much much harder. This would not be a good time to try your first ever needle chest decompression. It would not be a good time to try out that new chest tube, field surgical kit, or tracheotomy kit you got off ebay last month.

Train before hand. Its that simple. If your to lazy to train up first then you dont need to be asking about it here.
The problem is that in the event of a EOTWAWKI situation people are going to use their ebay kit in an attempt to save someone's life. The handbooks and "tips" they get from here will be the only training they get.
 

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"Dolt"
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The problem is that in the event of a EOTWAWKI situation people are going to use their ebay kit in an attempt to save someone's life. The handbooks and "tips" they get from here will be the only training they get.
Again, why be to lazy to train BEFORE SHTF?

Why is this such a foreign idea? You dont have to go to med school to learn the basics. If its not something someone is willing to do, then they dont need to do what they are thinking of doing.
 
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