Anyone know anything about nickel-iron batteries? I read on a website that sells them that they have a 25+yr lifespan, if used properly. I'm curious if anyone out there has a solar setup with these batteries. My friend has a solar system with lead acid batts. that powers his home (not the a.c), but the life span of his batteries is about 6yrs, and they are expensive.
rayray1
If you have the money it would be a good way to go.
http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery
http://ironedison.com/preconfigured-off-grid-systems
http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery
http://ironedison.com/preconfigured-off-grid-systems
Thanks for posting this. I didn't even know about these.
Looking at the prices they are about 3 to 5 times more expensive than lead acid AGM batteries per AH, but they seem to be a lot more robust and you would need to replace lead acid AGM batteries every 5 to 10 years, whereas NiFe batteries could last a very long time, probably at least twice as long, probably longer from what I have read.
Plus they seem to be able to handle more abuse and still come back to full capacity (or close to it) with some care. This and the lifetime I like. I would rather invest in something I can count on working when I need it than having to worry about batteries being near the end of their lifetime but not wanting to buy new ones until I get my money's worth out of them.
These batteries would probably outlive me - especially since I probably won't need them very often; I don't plan on going totally off-grid, only being able to if I have to. So buying a 100 to 200 AH bank every year or so is doable for me, and this way I could gradually increase my capacity.
I plan to have solar panels, but also to keep the batteries charged via the grid. Then they will only cycle if the grid goes down. With NiFe batteries I wouldn't be replacing them once I got them, and I would feel better about them lasting longer since they are mostly for emergency backup, not for daily use.
Looking at the prices they are about 3 to 5 times more expensive than lead acid AGM batteries per AH, but they seem to be a lot more robust and you would need to replace lead acid AGM batteries every 5 to 10 years, whereas NiFe batteries could last a very long time, probably at least twice as long, probably longer from what I have read.
Plus they seem to be able to handle more abuse and still come back to full capacity (or close to it) with some care. This and the lifetime I like. I would rather invest in something I can count on working when I need it than having to worry about batteries being near the end of their lifetime but not wanting to buy new ones until I get my money's worth out of them.
These batteries would probably outlive me - especially since I probably won't need them very often; I don't plan on going totally off-grid, only being able to if I have to. So buying a 100 to 200 AH bank every year or so is doable for me, and this way I could gradually increase my capacity.
I plan to have solar panels, but also to keep the batteries charged via the grid. Then they will only cycle if the grid goes down. With NiFe batteries I wouldn't be replacing them once I got them, and I would feel better about them lasting longer since they are mostly for emergency backup, not for daily use.
Be careful gentlemen , I just went through a long series of debates and watched the owners of two of these nickel Iron batteries go at it over at Survival Monkey. The truth is the the upkeep is very expensive. The electrolyte is almost as expensive as the batteries. The only new ones being made are built in China or the Ukraine. Zapp Works is selling refurbished Edison cells. I was all set to buy a bank of them then found out what the upkeep really entailed. The cost of the electrolyte is insane. I changed course and am looking at Lead acid sold dry made by ROLLS. Their batteries are way less money and you can buy them dry(vacum packed) and flood them when you need them. They last 15 years and you can get an 810 kwh bank for 999.00 .
This website has a very good thread on these batteries. I went there after the debate by the two guys from Iron Edison and The other Chinese battery . Look up Bill Blake and read his reports on Nickel Iron Batteries, the myths, controversy and what Edison actually did. You will find he never finished getting it quite right.
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php The other power site is real good for information on making your own power. KF
This website has a very good thread on these batteries. I went there after the debate by the two guys from Iron Edison and The other Chinese battery . Look up Bill Blake and read his reports on Nickel Iron Batteries, the myths, controversy and what Edison actually did. You will find he never finished getting it quite right.
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php The other power site is real good for information on making your own power. KF
We used Edison nickel/iron batteries as a backup power source for quite a long time on the railroad in our signal system. The only electrolyte we used was regular drinking water. We used these back in the 1970s till early 1980s and we switched over to the Edison nickel/cadmium type batteries which also only used regular drinking water to refill them. One thing is for certain, they did have quite a long life span and were very reliable. SEMPER FI
I don't mind the maintenance or having to keep the electrolyte liquid to a certain level - that I am used to having done a lot of battery maintenance as part of my job in the military. But the current cost of the electrolyte (possibly because a large markup) and the need to replace it totally every 7 to 10 years along with having to monitor the carbonate levels (which I doubt I would be able to do in my own shop) kind of puts a damper on my enthusiasm for NiFe batteries.
It it were just a matter of periodically adding distilled water then I could handle that.
I had forgot you could buy batteries dry and then add electrolyte later - but I don't think do that is possible with AMG batteries.
It it were just a matter of periodically adding distilled water then I could handle that.
I had forgot you could buy batteries dry and then add electrolyte later - but I don't think do that is possible with AMG batteries.
The beauty of nickel-iron is that they have incredibly long lives, unlike the usual 5-7 years of lead-acid.
Further, they can be discharged all the way down and then recharged without destroying them, something that usually cannot be done w/ lead-acid.
I'd never heard of the issue with electrolyte before now; nothing I've read seems to indicate an issue with it, and I've been looking at nickel-iron batteries for a long time.
A friend of mine has them as part of his solar setup, and I've never heard an issue with them w/r/t electrolyte.
Further, they can be discharged all the way down and then recharged without destroying them, something that usually cannot be done w/ lead-acid.
I'd never heard of the issue with electrolyte before now; nothing I've read seems to indicate an issue with it, and I've been looking at nickel-iron batteries for a long time.
A friend of mine has them as part of his solar setup, and I've never heard an issue with them w/r/t electrolyte.
I don't know all the facts. I was all set to buy a bank of the refurbished Edison batteries from Zappworks. They put the old cells in new plastic cases. They wont work with just any inverter either. They need an inverter that will follow them down to lower voltages like 9 volts. Magnum makes one. The other power website has some experts debating this topic . Once the debate started and all these guys from the three companies came on it got ugly. Over at Survival monkey there was almost two weeks of real mud slinging debates over how well they work and how long they really last. They sound so good, too good. One guy said the electrolyte would cost over a 1,000.00 just for 12 batteries. With all the controversy and debate I backed off. If any of you guys know someone who is running them right now I would like to contact that person with some questions. Hank at Zapp works told me distilled water was all I needed. He said I would not have to flush out the cells and recharge them for 25 years. HE HAD ME SOLD. Now I just dont know. This is why I said be careful. Do lots of research. KF
I have been investigating these batteries too, as I would like some sort of small PV/battery system. I'm not personally looking for a large amount of storage, but just being able to be able to run some LEDs & have radio would be huge if TSHTF. Unfortunately I have also been discouraged by what I have found out about NiFE. They are very expensive, and I may be able to justify that if I knew 99% that they would actually work 30+ years like they are claiming, but it seems like the risk is that you don't really know if they are going to hold up for decades, as there really aren't a lot of them out there and they may be building the new ones more cheaply than the old ones. And then the low efficiency is also problematic as you effectively need to size the batteries bigger than with lead acid. LiFePO4 looks like an interesting technology as they also claim long life, but it is very young and there are a lot of unknowns with that too. It is also unfortunately very expensive. But I have a feeling that is more likely to come down in the future as the big players will probably invest their R&D dollars there, since they are so efficient and lightweight. But that doesn't help us choose something now...
Kingfish, you mention the Rolls dry lead acid batteries. I had thought about doing dry lead acid, but then I read somewhere else that the dry lead acid batteries you buy (where you add an acid pack) aren't truly "dry" -- they use acid in the manufacturing process and then drain the acid off for shipping. So the plates actually are corroding just sitting there. Do you know the details, are these Rolls dry batteries any different, like they truly can sit dry in storage for 15 years and without corrosion and then you can take them out and add the acid pack and they are good for 7+ years after that? Because if that's true, they could be a good possibility as long as the price is reasonable.
Kingfish, you mention the Rolls dry lead acid batteries. I had thought about doing dry lead acid, but then I read somewhere else that the dry lead acid batteries you buy (where you add an acid pack) aren't truly "dry" -- they use acid in the manufacturing process and then drain the acid off for shipping. So the plates actually are corroding just sitting there. Do you know the details, are these Rolls dry batteries any different, like they truly can sit dry in storage for 15 years and without corrosion and then you can take them out and add the acid pack and they are good for 7+ years after that? Because if that's true, they could be a good possibility as long as the price is reasonable.
there are lead acid batteries on the market intended for telecom installations that have rated lifetimes of 30 to 4o years.
normally they are huge. individual cells of 2v and anywhere from a few hundred ah at the low end to maybe 2000 ah.
typically you find them in strings of 48v that weight into the tons.
if you watch the industrial surplus sites you can occasionally find a deal on them.
normally they are huge. individual cells of 2v and anywhere from a few hundred ah at the low end to maybe 2000 ah.
typically you find them in strings of 48v that weight into the tons.
if you watch the industrial surplus sites you can occasionally find a deal on them.
From the wiki page on nickel iron batteries...
The electrolyte of the nickel iron cells does not enter into chemical combination to perform the functions of the cell, but acts merely as a conveyor. It does not change in specific gravity during charge and discharge other than through evaporation and changes in temperature. Considerable variation in specific gravity is permissible, it having influence only on battery efficiency
From what I understand the electrolyte only needs to be changed out every 25 years or so in an IDEAL world and will function a lot longer under less than ideal circumstances.
The electrolyte in the original cells was Potassium Hydroxide. In much later designs they added some other things to help performance some.....something to do with discharge rate if I remember right. Anyways, KOH isn't THAT hard to get or expensive....
http://utahbiodieselsupply.com/biodieselchemicals.php#KOH
55lb sack for $95
Anyways, since they are not mainstream technology, I think there is a lot of assuming, urban legends, false information, and tall tales. Bottom line however, the technology is VERY sound and a VERY good option for power systems that are not 'standby' in nature but cycled open and deep into the capacity of the cells.
The electrolyte of the nickel iron cells does not enter into chemical combination to perform the functions of the cell, but acts merely as a conveyor. It does not change in specific gravity during charge and discharge other than through evaporation and changes in temperature. Considerable variation in specific gravity is permissible, it having influence only on battery efficiency
From what I understand the electrolyte only needs to be changed out every 25 years or so in an IDEAL world and will function a lot longer under less than ideal circumstances.
The electrolyte in the original cells was Potassium Hydroxide. In much later designs they added some other things to help performance some.....something to do with discharge rate if I remember right. Anyways, KOH isn't THAT hard to get or expensive....
http://utahbiodieselsupply.com/biodieselchemicals.php#KOH
55lb sack for $95
Anyways, since they are not mainstream technology, I think there is a lot of assuming, urban legends, false information, and tall tales. Bottom line however, the technology is VERY sound and a VERY good option for power systems that are not 'standby' in nature but cycled open and deep into the capacity of the cells.
NiFe batteries were traditionally used as backup for telephone CO.
Mainly because of their long-life on float charge (decades).
The biggest disadvantage IMHO is their high self-discharge rate.
That's not a problem when you're a phone company with cheap grid power.
But it is for those off-grid who were counting on storing their expensive, PV-generated electricity for a rainy day.
Mainly because of their long-life on float charge (decades).
The biggest disadvantage IMHO is their high self-discharge rate.
That's not a problem when you're a phone company with cheap grid power.
But it is for those off-grid who were counting on storing their expensive, PV-generated electricity for a rainy day.
Another big disadvantage (for those making expensive solar power) is the poor charge efficiency of NiFe.
IIRC, starts out around 60%, can get up to 70%, but only if you're heavily cycling them.
One would need to buy more solar panels to compensate for the above vs. using traditional lead-acid batteries.
It may be worth it though, for the longer lifespan, IF one can afford the upfront expense of NiFe & the additional solar panels needed.
IIRC, starts out around 60%, can get up to 70%, but only if you're heavily cycling them.
One would need to buy more solar panels to compensate for the above vs. using traditional lead-acid batteries.
It may be worth it though, for the longer lifespan, IF one can afford the upfront expense of NiFe & the additional solar panels needed.
there are quite a few myths about NiFe out there, not sure where they come from.
Electrolyte is KOH, not hard to get or expensive (you can make it yourself with wood ashes). It does not get used in the process, so I don't know why you would need to change it every 7 years. Every 15 years would be more than enough. Even then, you are looking at $50 of electrolyte for a bank of batteries. Just keep them topped off with distilled water.
The self-discharge is exaggerated. Many have reported that they hold charge well for several months, even up to a year without noticeable discharge.
Their cost is the main disadvantage, IMO. They cost 3-5 times what lead acids do. But, they last 5-10 times as long (maybe longer).
Here is some more info about the myths and details of Ni-Fe: http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?p=5048914
Electrolyte is KOH, not hard to get or expensive (you can make it yourself with wood ashes). It does not get used in the process, so I don't know why you would need to change it every 7 years. Every 15 years would be more than enough. Even then, you are looking at $50 of electrolyte for a bank of batteries. Just keep them topped off with distilled water.
The self-discharge is exaggerated. Many have reported that they hold charge well for several months, even up to a year without noticeable discharge.
Their cost is the main disadvantage, IMO. They cost 3-5 times what lead acids do. But, they last 5-10 times as long (maybe longer).
Here is some more info about the myths and details of Ni-Fe: http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?p=5048914
hello everyone. I am here to let you all know that i have some ni-fe batteries from 1968 manufactured by western electric. there are some i see that have some of the facts strait but others that have heard some things that are simply not true.
first off I acquired the batteries in question from a friend who had let them sit outside in without electrolyte in most and some had old electrolyte. I live in Colorado where in the winter most the time it gets to -20 avg. They had sat for at least 10 years in that state. without charging any of them there were some(the ones with electrolyte) that were still at at least 50% charge. after changing the electrolyte and charging them to full capacity they were installed in my dads house. he has a 400 watt passive solar tracker. now compared to the old "crap-tastic" lead acid batteries he can leave the inverter on all day and night even with cloud cover the battery bank hardly ever drops below 12 volts. some days when the refrigerator runs alot it drops to 11.6. but thats at least still 70% charge. the nickel iron battery can be run down to 90% depth of discharge, and repeated deep discharging does not reduce life significantly.
they have a life span of upwards of 100+ years. there are some remote stations in Canada and the us territories that still use nickel iron batteries from 1912 it is 2014. that is 102 years. and reportedly they are still running at optimal efficiency of 80%. that is way over what a lead acid battery can do without damage. and there is a extremely cheap way to get electrolyte. there is a soap making company that sells the specific lye. potassium hydroxide for $10 per 2lb bottle. the sight is called www.brambleberry.com they have it in stock.
that 2 lb bottle will replace the electrolyte in 10 batteries with reservoirs of 3/4 gallon. the solution is supposed to be 21% potassium hydroxide with water. and you can use a plus 5% lithium hydroxide to up the efficiency of the batteries from 80% to 85-90%. past that they also do not discharge slowly. if one were to add a 100 kohm resistor to a length of solid nickel cable 4 gage strand. it would melt the cable without a doubt. i have tested this. and it also melted the resistor. but they do charge slow. it takes 10-14 hours on the first charge- the first charge should be done outside-.
another fact the first charge will produce alot of hydrogen but that is at a charge rate of c/5 at 1.8 volts per cell. normal charge on a solar system is c/15 without a controller. due to the specific open and closed circuit voltages of any given pv panel. yes a c/5 rate is more than a c/15 rate. it means they can charge to capacity in 5 hours rather than 15 hours.
another cool thing about the ni-fe batteries they do not... repeat do not need a charge controller they can withstand a overcharge voltage of 2 volts per cell at a rate of c/2 thats 10 times the amount of current you can pump into a lead acid battery. the downfall of that is that they can withstand it for a max of 30 mins. after that they go into thermal runaway. not a good thing. that is the only thing that will damage them. not cold not any specific charge rate, but over heating. past that a block of c-4 or a 50 cal.
some of the information is from my experience and other is from the original battery manual from Thomas Edison. also be careful not to cross the positive with the metal case of a old ni-fe battery. the case eventually becomes the negative. if the insulator is damaged, however this will actually not effect the discharge or charge of the battery, only the safety of it. any more questions should be taken up with ironedison. they are a us producer of nickel iron batteries. if they don't know no one does.
i have also found from albainia.. dont care if i didnt spell that right. but they sell some from china that are military grade ni-fe batteries from $5-$15 per cell. thats $150 dollars for a new 12 volt 400ah battery. the shipping isnt so bad either. it reportedly takes almost a month thou so prepare to wait. if you go through them. however if your willing to spend the extra buck you can buy them from ironedison.com they as said earlier a us manufacture of ni-fe batteries. a opinion from me if you do not use ni-fe or ni-cd batteries you have a sad excuse for a solar system. that is all
first off I acquired the batteries in question from a friend who had let them sit outside in without electrolyte in most and some had old electrolyte. I live in Colorado where in the winter most the time it gets to -20 avg. They had sat for at least 10 years in that state. without charging any of them there were some(the ones with electrolyte) that were still at at least 50% charge. after changing the electrolyte and charging them to full capacity they were installed in my dads house. he has a 400 watt passive solar tracker. now compared to the old "crap-tastic" lead acid batteries he can leave the inverter on all day and night even with cloud cover the battery bank hardly ever drops below 12 volts. some days when the refrigerator runs alot it drops to 11.6. but thats at least still 70% charge. the nickel iron battery can be run down to 90% depth of discharge, and repeated deep discharging does not reduce life significantly.
they have a life span of upwards of 100+ years. there are some remote stations in Canada and the us territories that still use nickel iron batteries from 1912 it is 2014. that is 102 years. and reportedly they are still running at optimal efficiency of 80%. that is way over what a lead acid battery can do without damage. and there is a extremely cheap way to get electrolyte. there is a soap making company that sells the specific lye. potassium hydroxide for $10 per 2lb bottle. the sight is called www.brambleberry.com they have it in stock.
that 2 lb bottle will replace the electrolyte in 10 batteries with reservoirs of 3/4 gallon. the solution is supposed to be 21% potassium hydroxide with water. and you can use a plus 5% lithium hydroxide to up the efficiency of the batteries from 80% to 85-90%. past that they also do not discharge slowly. if one were to add a 100 kohm resistor to a length of solid nickel cable 4 gage strand. it would melt the cable without a doubt. i have tested this. and it also melted the resistor. but they do charge slow. it takes 10-14 hours on the first charge- the first charge should be done outside-.
another fact the first charge will produce alot of hydrogen but that is at a charge rate of c/5 at 1.8 volts per cell. normal charge on a solar system is c/15 without a controller. due to the specific open and closed circuit voltages of any given pv panel. yes a c/5 rate is more than a c/15 rate. it means they can charge to capacity in 5 hours rather than 15 hours.
another cool thing about the ni-fe batteries they do not... repeat do not need a charge controller they can withstand a overcharge voltage of 2 volts per cell at a rate of c/2 thats 10 times the amount of current you can pump into a lead acid battery. the downfall of that is that they can withstand it for a max of 30 mins. after that they go into thermal runaway. not a good thing. that is the only thing that will damage them. not cold not any specific charge rate, but over heating. past that a block of c-4 or a 50 cal.
some of the information is from my experience and other is from the original battery manual from Thomas Edison. also be careful not to cross the positive with the metal case of a old ni-fe battery. the case eventually becomes the negative. if the insulator is damaged, however this will actually not effect the discharge or charge of the battery, only the safety of it. any more questions should be taken up with ironedison. they are a us producer of nickel iron batteries. if they don't know no one does.
i have also found from albainia.. dont care if i didnt spell that right. but they sell some from china that are military grade ni-fe batteries from $5-$15 per cell. thats $150 dollars for a new 12 volt 400ah battery. the shipping isnt so bad either. it reportedly takes almost a month thou so prepare to wait. if you go through them. however if your willing to spend the extra buck you can buy them from ironedison.com they as said earlier a us manufacture of ni-fe batteries. a opinion from me if you do not use ni-fe or ni-cd batteries you have a sad excuse for a solar system. that is all
Batteries are a serious issue for off grid electricity, and for good reason. I researched the topic a few years back and arrived at what I still consider to be the best solution: forklift battery.
One company in particular piqued my interest: GB Industrial Battery. I contacted the company and verified that they will deliver a battery to most sites in the 48 States. Note that their pricing includes delivery. Their price, depending on the size of the unit, varies from about $100-$150 per rated KWh of capacity (20 hour rate). The units are rated for 1500 full cycles.
I was able to correspond with many individuals who are using these batteries in the off grid setting. In all cases I have found these batteries last well over 10 years in the off grid setting - and this includes many systems that were first established with USED forklift batteries. Anecdotal accounts show that units purchased new often last 20 years. One unit had been in service more than 30 years, and was still being used at the time it was reported.
In my researched opinion, the flooded lead acid forklift battery is the most cost effective alternative for off grid energy storage. I've seen nothing that comes close. Sure, they're big and heavy, but I personally don't consider that to be a show stopper. The battery I considered for the system I designed is 1100 pounds (24 v, 804 amp hour, about 1 foot wide, 2.5 feet long, and 2 feet tall : $2453 delivered). I've moved many safes with similar weight and dimensions - on a platform with heavy casters. It works.
One company in particular piqued my interest: GB Industrial Battery. I contacted the company and verified that they will deliver a battery to most sites in the 48 States. Note that their pricing includes delivery. Their price, depending on the size of the unit, varies from about $100-$150 per rated KWh of capacity (20 hour rate). The units are rated for 1500 full cycles.
I was able to correspond with many individuals who are using these batteries in the off grid setting. In all cases I have found these batteries last well over 10 years in the off grid setting - and this includes many systems that were first established with USED forklift batteries. Anecdotal accounts show that units purchased new often last 20 years. One unit had been in service more than 30 years, and was still being used at the time it was reported.
In my researched opinion, the flooded lead acid forklift battery is the most cost effective alternative for off grid energy storage. I've seen nothing that comes close. Sure, they're big and heavy, but I personally don't consider that to be a show stopper. The battery I considered for the system I designed is 1100 pounds (24 v, 804 amp hour, about 1 foot wide, 2.5 feet long, and 2 feet tall : $2453 delivered). I've moved many safes with similar weight and dimensions - on a platform with heavy casters. It works.
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