[thedan]

A topic in a recent thread about colloidal silver got me wondering what everyones thoughts were related to their health. As far as I can see the two ends of the spectrum are people who hate doctors, and people who love them.
I was told in that thread I wasn't alone in my thoughts so here they are:

I am more so anti-doctor. I work in the automotive industry at a dealership. There are certain ways, when something done to a vehicle is done under warranty, to squeeze a bit more time out of warranty and thus getting ourselves more money. I see that the medical industry seems to be doing the same thing with insurance companies. They will do certain procedures in order to get more money from insurance or will delay other procedures to get a kick back from insurance companies, all the while not keeping the patients interests at hand. From my own personal experience, many doctors practicing today seem to try this treatment or that treatment, and keep the patient sick, for lack of a better term. It may sound obscure but it makes sense in that it keeps a steady revenue stream for whatever practice it may be.

I typically try to avoid going to the doctor at all, unless I feel it is an absolute emergency. I follow a strict regiment of comprehensive vitamins daily, eat decent, and have an intense workout plan.

I don't think it is like this everywhere, nor do I think every single medical professional is evil. I also know what I have said will probably anger quite a few individuals. I am interested in seeing what everyone else thinks.

 

[stigz]

I agree with you. I will never seek medical aid unless it is something very serious. My own remedys have always worked for me. Water, rest, stretching, pooping, and running. You may laugh but these 5 things solve almost every ailment for me.

As a side question: How many of you think way too many people use medical services and products for trivial ailments?

 

[pudding7]

It's like any other industry. Some good people, some quacks, some abusers, some addicts.

I don't hesitate to go to the doctor when necessary.

When I had a nasty flu a few years ago, they gave me antibiotics and I got better.
When I crashed during a race, they stitched up my arm and gave me a tetanus shot, I healed.

Would I have lived through these things without a doctor? Probably. But I'd rather pay $10 and get it fixed right and have it be done with sooner.

Just like your car industry comparison. We could all probably fix our own cars most of the time, but I'd rather pay a few bucks and have it done right and quickly by an expert, even if they occasionally tack on some extra questionable charge. Price of doing business, I guess.

I don't understand this (seemingly recent) widespread distrust of experts. Everyone apparently has "an agenda" so everyone is not to be trusted. Climatologists, Geologists, Physicians, etc. When did an education and experience become a liability?

 

[thedan]

good points.

 

[pudding7]

... How many of you think way too many people use medical services and products for trivial ailments?

Everyone here will say yes to that. I think way too many use medical services and products for trivial ailments.

I think people are too quick to call tech support. I think people are too quick to call customer service. I think people are too quick to complain. etc, etc, etc. People are too quick to do everything. Nothing unique to the medical industry.

 

[mangyhyena]

I don't trust our medical establishment at the top levels. Period.

Whenever you give someone an incentive to harm you or even kill you bad things will magically begin to happen and those benefiting from your pain and misery can no longer be blindly trusted.

As a survivalist I tend to do for myself whenever possible. I keep an eye out for alternative treatments that work so I don't have to put myself at the mercy of the medical establishment. I will, however, see a doctor when I need one and I know of no working alternative. They are a last resort for me.

 

[ForestBeekeeper]

I can see both sides on this issue.

I just do not trust anyone on these things.

 

[mangyhyena]

"I don't understand this (seemingly recent) widespread distrust of experts. Everyone apparently has "an agenda" so everyone is not to be trusted. Climatologists, Geologists, Physicians, etc. When did an education and experience become a liability?"

Pudding7, we're seeing more and more today that things are being kept from we the people. Free energy and cancer treatments are but two of those things. With the internet up and running we the people tend to get more information than we did just 15 or 20 years ago. We the people can now do our own research. When we look at things like B-17 and the FDA's actions toward it we get suspicious of the FDA's motives when they outlaw this treatment. When we hear about free energy inventors who are killed, their research and machines mysteriously missing, we get suspicious. When we look at the fact that modern medicine has cured nothing since Polio was cured and we get only treatments for symptoms instead of cures, we get suspicious. When we look at the attempts to remove natural supplements from our shelves so we have no choice but to rely on pharmaceutical drugs, we get suspicious.

This attitude or suspicion might seem new to you, but it's been brewing for a while now. Will it come to a head? Who knows.

 

[Basic Human Unit]

What was the last disease we cured in this country? Polio? Smallpox? All we seem to have now are symptomatic treatments.

 

[Blaik]

Ummm...just to point out a couple things:

1)There has NEVER been a "free energy" or "perpetual motion" device/machine that has unequivocally worked and been accurately documented. Prove me wrong.

2)We haven't cured Polio. All that was done was an aggressive vaccination plan that prevented children from catching polio. Vaccines don't cure diseases, just prevent them. If we stop issuing the vaccines, given the population densities we currently have, you better believe we'd see a resurgence of a lot of those diseases. Autism links or not, those vaccines have saved lives.

And with that I await the inevitable firestorm.

 

[MikeK]

There's quackery on both sides of the issue. It's easier to spot on the natural side though because the empty claims have nothing "official" backing them up. I use both and will continue to do so.

I see a lot of people claiming a lot of natural and alternative therapies don't work. Well, some do and some don't. But when they're claiming a product doesn't work that I know for a fact does work, then the claim loses all credibility. We had a thread like that about glucosamine/chondroitin. I know for a fact that it works and the other things I had tried, both traditional medicine and alternatives did not. That doesn't mean that those therapies "don't" work, only that they didn't work for ME.

 

[Goethic]

Preventative medicine is oft times the best medicine.... Some herbal remedies have true value but one must understand their limitations, contraindications, and side effects.

For example, "Saw Palmetto" is touted as a apreventive measure for benign prostatic hypertrophy (bph) or "enlarged prostate." There is a significant amount of evidence that it has value. Now here's the rub: Just like Flomax, Hytrin Uroxatral, and other similar meds, one of the side effects relates to persons who will be having cataract surgery.

In order for your surgeon to have an optimal view of the operative site, the patient's pupils are well dilated prior to surgery. Folks who have used any of these prostate meds or Saw Palmetto can have their dilated pupil spontaneously lose dilation in the middle of the procedure. If the use of this type of medication or supplement was not known by the surgeon prior to the procedure, likely certain precautions were not taken.

There will be a need for an urgent change in approach mid-surgery, and there us a much greater likelihood of a complication.

Just a word to the wise... supplements are not a panacea and serious side effects can occur in some cases.

That said, and as long as you understand what you are using and the possible side effects, complementary medicine has its place...

 

[Michigan_RN]

... As far as I can see the two ends of the spectrum are people who hate doctors, and people who love them...

Why people have this enmity toward western, evidence-based medicine is a classic logical fallacy called a False Dichotomy. Pointing out the flaws of one concept proves nothing about another. The proponents of Supplements, Complimentary, and Alternative Medicine (SCAM) often complain about evidence-based medicine and talk about how they hate doctors, hate insurance companies... but they never actually say anything about their own SCAM method that supports its efficacy. Put any SCAM modality up against western, evidence-based medicine and it fails - every single time, period. Western, evidence based medicine uses every single method that has been clinically, not anecdotally shown to work. All that any SCAM has to do is show it works, that is all that is asked. But anecdotes appeal to ignorance. And people simply do not have the ability to understand the difference.

Americans by and large are terrified by math, and that is a shame. You simply cannot understand much about the world without a thorough understanding of numbers and mathematical relationships.

Everyone that is writing here is likely between the age of 18 and 65. Very very very few aliments effect that population. The body has evolved to be very adept at healing itself, not through wacky energy field crap, but through biochemistry. Well over half of the people in the USA require absolutely no medical care at all during any given year. Many people use none at all for most of their adult lives! The healthiest 50% of our population uses only 3% of our healthcare costs each year (and that includes doctor & dentist checkups) But when something does go wrong, the sickest of our population, a small 5% segment of our society, requires over 49% of all healthcare.

Do I have to tell you that almost all of these costs are also directly related to behavior and lifestyle choices too? Don't smoke, don't drink often, don't drive like a fool, and get your fat ass off the couch to run and lift weights... then you can pretend that it was your wheatgrass smoothie that made you not get sick, but that is not reality.

When I had a nasty flu a few years ago, they gave me antibiotics and I got better.
I don't understand this (seemingly recent) widespread distrust of experts. Everyone apparently has "an agenda" so everyone is not to be trusted. Climatologists, Geologists, Physicians, etc. When did an education and experience become a liability?

I hate to say it, but your one 'good' example of healthcare infers that you went to a disturbingly uneducated doctor that is committing malpractice. If you had influenza and were given antibiotics for it, call the your individual State agency that regulates physicians and have that doctor brought up to disciplinary review. Likely you had a bacterial respiratory infection and the doctor told you that you had the 'flu' because virtually everybody outside of the medical health industry has no idea what the flu is anyway, and didn't feel like giving a lecture that should have been taught in 8th grade biology.

As for why people have distrust of those that have more education in a field, it comes down to the basic way that evolution created our brains. The human brain is a pattern seeking organ, it WILL ALWAYS find a pattern, even in random data. The most complex system known to man is the human body. Medicine is simply beyond, well, everybody on the earth to understand. There is a reason that it takes doctors 15-years of training after graduating highschool to practice medicine. Each of those years exposes the physician to more education than most of us have had in our entire scholastic careers from pre-school through college.

If you have not spent most of your early adult life in a book studying chemistry, pharmacology, biology, and physics you are not going to understand how the body works, simple as that. If you don't understand how the body works, how are you going to understand what it is that isn't working optimally? And how in the heck are you supposed to understand how some modality fixes this complex system that is beyond your wildest comprehension? You don't and you won't.

But that doesn't mean that the underlying process of the brain is satisfied with that answer, so it invents its own bullcrap to fill the ignorance. The absolute BS that I hear on a daily basis about things like diets, vitamins, or antioxidants make me want to slap some chemistry into people. But I have to step back, and realize that it is just the way the brain works -

1) When the brain identifies a complex problem that the brain has been undereducated to comprehend then,

2) Find a simplified answer with common concepts from ideas that the person feels comfortable with or sound scientific enough to fill the ignorance void,

3) and move on to the next American Idol episode, NCAA game, or internet porn site.

Let's face it, 53% of Americans don't know that it takes a year for the earth to move around the sun and 42% of Americans think that humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, like Fred Flinstone... is it any wonder that almost nobody you have ever met in your entire life knows much about how to treat an illness?

... I will never seek medical aid unless it is something very serious. My own remedys have always worked for me. Water, rest, stretching, pooping, and running. You may laugh but these 5 things solve almost every ailment for me.
As a side question: How many of you think way too many people use medical services and products for trivial ailments?

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc
People that are healthy enough to run, poop, and stretch might already be healthier than someone that doesn't. Those are great things to do, don't get me wrong, but they also are not remedies for sickness either.

"My own remedies have always worked for me" well, that is because you have never had anything except self-limiting conditions. Try one of those home-remedies against bacterial (Neisseria meningitidis) meningitis. Or fight off rabies with a SCAM treatment. I hope you don't, because you will rapidly find your non-evidence based medical system lacking.

Everyone that has graduated from highschool should have been forced to pass a logical fallacy class. Unfortunately, when you are looking at the "I was sick, did this, and I got better". You have performed an uncontrolled non-clinical trial. How do you know that your "treatment" didn't double how long you would have been sick? You have nothing to compare it to.

The brain wants a comfortable understanding of complexity, ESPECIALLY in personal matters like health. The less a person knows about the science of medicine, the more likely they will be drawn into the mystical, energy field, homeopathy, chiropractic, organic food quackery that pervades our society.

Everyone here should take a quick lesson on logical fallacies. This education will help you move through the ridiculous amount of bullcrap that is on the internet. Skeptoid.com has some excellent podcasts/essays on this problem

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4073
:
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4074

Enjoy :thumb:

 

[thedan]

So I guess you're on the side who loves doctors, then?

I'll hopefully return back at some point to respond more in depth. Just as a quick thought, at one point in the statement above I took it as, if we aren't as educated nor studied books for 15 years, we do not have the mental capacity to handle the intricate workings of the human body, and thus make up stuff to suit our own needs. Interesting idea, although I find myself offended strangely. Again, I need to get back to respond more in depth.

 

[MikeK]

For example, "Saw Palmetto" is touted as a apreventive measure for benign prostatic hypertrophy (bph) or "enlarged prostate."

Saw Palmetto was one of the ingredients in an herbal formula that eliminated my dad's prostate problems, when the doctors couldn't. His only other alternative was surgery. He agreed to try the formula, not much believing in it, and it kept him symptom free for the rest of his life.

 

[pudding7]

I hate to say it, but your one 'good' example of healthcare infers that you went to a disturbingly uneducated doctor that is committing malpractice. If you had influenza and were given antibiotics for it, call the your individual State agency that regulates physicians and have that doctor brought up to disciplinary review. Likely you had a bacterial respiratory infection and the doctor told you that you had the 'flu' because virtually everybody outside of the medical health industry has no idea what the flu is anyway, and didn't feel like giving a lecture that should have been taught in 8th grade biology.

Relax a little. The mistake was mine. I said he gave me antibiotics, I should have said he gave me an antiviral. Regardless, my point was that for 3 days I was home alone alternately freezing and sweating, curled up on the floor heater trying to stop from shivering, and after 45 minutes at the evil medical professional's office, I had a treatment that cleared things fairly quickly.

If I could have stood under my own power, perhaps running or pooping would have helped.

 

[Michigan_RN]

If I could have stood under my own power, perhaps running or pooping would have helped.

hehe, been there with those S/sx

I figured you were getting short sprints of the running to the bathroom for the pooping part! :

But I am going to guess that you were actually correct your first time. I bet he did give you antibiotics. Antivirals are pricey and not for use on simple viral illnesses. Aside from cancer pts, few people are going to be given antivirals because of the potential risks.

...Well they dose for STDs too but you didn't mention those

 

[Texas Patriot]

My best friend just graduated from medical school.I have known him since 1981 to be a honest, upright guy. I had a motorcycle crash in 1991 in which my liver was ruptured. I received excellent medical attention. In 1997 i fell off a roof, hurting my neck,I went to see my doctor. He did an x-ray me and could find nothing wrong. I was having such terrible pain I almost had to close one eye to see double, headaches like I had never experienced before(or since). This went on for three years and for three years I'd go see him with the complaint, he'd do an x-ray, find nothing . Finally,my mother suggested I see a chiropractor. I asked my doctor about that and he poo pooed the idea,said chiropractors aren't REAL doctors,ect., ect. I went to the chiropractor.He took an x-ray from a different position and lo and behold, a vertebrae near the base of my skull was canted. I had had what was essentially whiplash these past three years . The chiropractor "adjusted" my neck and I have been fine ever since. My point is, thank God for modern medicine and our scientific knowledge. But there is something to be said for homeopathic/ natural cures as well. Rather than working against each other, the two should work together,but that seems to be up to the individual,since the medical community takes a dim view of the other practices . I tend to use the natural remedies ( for non life threatening instances)and rely on good nutrition, rest and exercise to maintain my health. If it cannot be handled with natural remedies, I'll go to the doctor. TP

 

[stigz]

Would ya'll agree that there is a whole lot of "placebo affect" on both sides of this argument?

 

[bug-out-betty]

Just like your car industry comparison. We could all probably fix our own cars most of the time, but I'd rather pay a few bucks and have it done right and quickly by an expert, even if they occasionally tack on some extra questionable charge. Price of doing business, I guess.

?

how many times does a mechanic fix it right, the first time, without damaging something else, staining the interior, etc???

there are a lot of mechanics out there that just replace parts till its fixed.

docs are exactly the same.