Survivalist Forum banner
21 - 40 of 63 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
699 Posts
To each their own. Most people have no use for multiple set ups

I have 1 gun belt and a few safari land holsters with QLS I change out. rest of the belt stays the same.
I have an EDC belt and I can toss different IWB or OWB holster on
I have 1 PC that carries everything else I need. I do have different zip on panels that have different odds and ends but hardly a different "RIG" all together.
I have a dedicated 3 day pack that has things in it I can swap out and I can stash the pack itself.

Im not in the military anymore I dont operate in any capacity that would require multiple set ups. If SHTF I will not be lugging a pelican case around full of different kits for different missions. I would not want to be doing some recon and get caught up in some bad ju-ju. SHTF going to be predictable, you wont be able to call for supplies, there will be minimal, if any support.

Investing in frequent & quality training is > than having more/all the cool toys with all the bells and whistles.


Just my .02
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
265 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Good to see lots of like minded individuals on the subject. And it all comes down to personal preference, and what works best for you in the end as always.

I'm older now, and wont be doing a lot of run and gun action.. I'm more support these days, but in certain situations, I want to make sure I have what I need, and so I'm going through with multiple rigs, just Like I have multiple firearms for different applications.

I feel that mostly what I'll be needing is extra maga. I'll keep as much support gear as I feel I'll need, like, IFAK's, fire starters, knives, etc, etc,.
This will make for lighter gear for me, because I don't need a plate carrier and plate, although I have a plate carrier vest at least. I hope to buy a plate some time soon just in case, but with the way things are right now,.....who knows ?
But, I will at least be using my greatest asset to keep me as safe as possible (my brain), and at least make sure I have AN OUT, so I can boogie on down the road to fight another day.
That's one of the things where being old helps you. Wisdom to know when to drop it, and pick your fights when you have a better advantage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,324 Posts
Nothing wrong with multiple rigs. I set one up for basic rifleman, but have one set up for shotgun also. Thought about setting up one for more medical use....I remember a corpsman using a USGI Grenadier vest, except instead of grenades, his vest was loaded with pressure dressings!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,118 Posts
I'm not highspeed like you guys, mostly low speed these days. All my set ups are designed to be layered and short use. I'll post the cool picks but I'm sitting in a parking lot in columbus at 6am. These are the layers:
(1) pistol belt- modified drop leg holster worn at the belt so I can do farm work. 2 mags and a kershaw folder. I like kershaws because they have thumbstuds and openning assists so you can open with one finger.....and they are rugged and hold an edge.
(2) belts with suspender rigs- I wear mine over my pistol belt and under a hoddie or short jacket Nov -April. Both are on cumberbund setup ups with a 3 mag pouch on one side and an IFAK, gear pouch and qt gear pouch on the other. We wear them mostly when shooting, mostly for the IFAK as a worst case scenerio precaution.
(3) chest carriers- 3 mags expandible to six, an IFAK, a qt water pouch. Not sure why I have these.

The last two groups have lights, all in one tools, radios, kershaw folding knives and shaving brushes(field clean) standard, the water pouches each have aqua pure tabs and lemon mix sticks.

I use the belt/pistol set up alot. I use the cumberbund layer every other weekend with my nephew when we shoot and scoot (mostly him). I'm the uncle he does work with and wierd **** like this or supply runs across the state or mundane things like mulching.

I'm not highspeed, I'm your average mobile casualty. I set up supplies and gear for after I'm gone, by whatever means, hopefully for my family, if they survive or someone elses if they dont.

Not sexy, user friendly. One gunbelt, 2 rigs for each set up. Got extra pouches and crap. Potentially 2 more rigs cobbled togethor. I'm focused on meds, comms and gardening right now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,394 Posts
To each their own. Most people have no use for multiple set ups

I have 1 gun belt and a few safari land holsters with QLS I change out. rest of the belt stays the same.
I have an EDC belt and I can toss different IWB or OWB holster on
I have 1 PC that carries everything else I need. I do have different zip on panels that have different odds and ends but hardly a different "RIG" all together.
I have a dedicated 3 day pack that has things in it I can swap out and I can stash the pack itself.

Im not in the military anymore I dont operate in any capacity that would require multiple set ups. If SHTF I will not be lugging a pelican case around full of different kits for different missions. I would not want to be doing some recon and get caught up in some bad ju-ju. SHTF going to be predictable, you wont be able to call for supplies, there will be minimal, if any support.
There’s some wisdom and value to this. I was just thinking about what I would choose given everything I have. It’s pretty simple and in a layered approach:

EDC belt would (ideally) just be my inner battle belt liner. I have a few that are capable of serving as a CCW gun belt. Where they shine is when you can’t wear your battle belt if you’re wearing a larger pack with hip belt; they are pretty flat and not at all uncomfortable when worn with a pack.

Primary battle belt right now is a Blue Alpha belt. It has the hook-Velcro to attach and stabilize with the belt liner. Additionally, I have an HSGI padded inner belt attachment as this would be the one by the bed and it’s much more comfortable wearing with this belt attachment if I’m forced to throw it on over boxer shorts.

My primary chest rig is the Haley Strategic D3CRM micro rig. It can be used as a stand-alone and worn in conjunction with the battle belt or with a pack. I can quickly detach and put in on my plate carrier…

I have a few plate carriers, but my JPC 2.0 is used as a slick carrier, but I can attach the micro chest rig and dangling IFAK pouch if needed.

Same as you, the majority of my holsters are QLS adaptable; just makes everything easy.

I have three primary packs. One is my patrol pack, one is my get home pack, and one is my serious bugout bag. I would say for the majority of needs, the small patrol pack (Mystery Ranch 3DAP), is the preferred pack as it’s not overly loaded, and it integrates well if I’m wearing the battle belt, micro chest rig (stand-alone or attached to the plate carrier).

Investing in frequent & quality training is > than having more/all the cool toys with all the bells and whistles.
If it’s a job and a hobby, you just do both, but your point hammers home the greater importance of “frequent, and quality” training. I just have different firearms I train with and I didn’t want to keep tearing my primary apart to swap mag pouches…it turns into a few different systems over time.

ROCK6
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
699 Posts
Primary battle belt right now is a Blue Alpha belt. It has the hook-Velcro to attach and stabilize with the belt liner. Additionally, I have an HSGI padded inner belt attachment as this would be the one by the bed and it’s much more comfortable wearing with this belt attachment if I’m forced to throw it on over boxer shorts.
My EDC belt is also Blue Alpha (hybrid)the rigidity is great, it supports my tier1 axis and EDC g19 great. I love my Ronin Tactics Senshi belt. R i did shell out for the Ryu inner belt as its 1.5" instead of 2" which their belts come with.

I recently came across Snake Eater Tactical who makes a 3 part belt system with a padded middle belt. Id like to give a whirl. I also like the idea of their dump pouch sitting behind the mag pouch. I dont like that the D ring is not captured. maybe the padded belt will work with my Ronin, thats worth a shot.

My primary chest rig is the Haley Strategic D3CRM micro rig. It can be used as a stand-alone and worn in conjunction with the battle belt or with a pack. I can quickly detach and put in on my plate carrier…
I need to pick up a chest rig. to keep in the vehicle.

I have a few plate carriers, but my JPC 2.0 is used as a slick carrier, but I can attach the micro chest rig and dangling IFAK pouch if needed.
I also run JPC 2.0 i have 2 few zip on packs/panels I swap out. I love the modularity. Different backs and different fronts makes an easy day. Currently just has m4 front flap to keep the profile down

I have three primary packs. One is my patrol pack, one is my get home pack, and one is my serious bugout bag. I would say for the majority of needs, the small patrol pack (Mystery Ranch 3DAP), is the preferred pack as it’s not overly loaded, and it integrates well if I’m wearing the battle belt, micro chest rig (stand-alone or attached to the plate carrier).
I think this is a smart way to look at things I would say Im in a similar boat, just never thought of it in that way. I have a GHB in my vehicle, as well as a rush 72, beyond that I have a Hardigg case that I keep what I call my camping kit in. that consists of everything one needs for extended primitive camping.

I really want a Mystery Ranch 3DAP just cant justify the coin, Im sure ill pull the trigger at some point. I probably should have kept one when I got out.

If it’s a job and a hobby, you just do both, but your point hammers home the greater importance of “frequent, and quality” training. I just have different firearms I train with and I didn’t want to keep tearing my primary apart to swap mag pouches…it turns into a few different systems over time.
This I 100% agree with. Nothing wrong with the hobby/job aspects of it. Training is key, however IMHO most people on here the job aspect isn't so applicable the hobby more so. in regards to training I think master a given set up and if you want to expand go for it. It takes a lot of time and work to master a given set up easy if its your job .

I also know plenty of people who have their own armory and cant drive any of their weapons effectively, they are simply range toys
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
265 Posts
Discussion Starter · #27 ·
I've read all the posts here, and I just need to clarify a bit.
My belts are basically all the same.....to a point. As I might need a bit of extra mags on a patrol of our BOL perimeter as opposed to just a few for a RECON look see, it's easier for me to just grab a belt with the same basics as the other, but with a couple extra mag pouches for extended firepower I might need on a perimeter patrol should I encounter hostile attackers, because a RECON mission just requires me to observe, make mental notes, and report back to the CP, all without giving away my position, so NO CONTACT if possible, and thus less gear.

Same with any chest rig or plate carrier I might decide to use for whatever I happen to be doing at the time. I realize that some of you guys have need for less, but then there are some who think they need more, and that's fine, because your mileage may vary.
There is no right or wrong answer for this post, because, .....to each his own.

And yes, training is everything. You should always be in a constant state of training as far as I'm concerned. I go for walks around the neighborhood. When I started these walks, I went empty handed. After a short time, I added a small pack with a little amount of gear. After another short period of time, I added a bit more. And so on.
Imworking towards being able to carry a pack with 30-40 pounds of gear in case of a Bug Out situation where I might have to go on foot.
TRAINING, TRAINING TRAINING.
Anew tactical move at the gun range...TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING.
Same with my use of these different rigs I plan to be using.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,732 Posts
An overriding tendency among a lot today's shooters is to wish away Murphy and carry very little ammo for defensive long guns. The ever popular minimalist 3-4 carbine magazines on a vest, load bearing rig, or piece of armor.

In my informed opinion, this is a faddish mistake popularized by several things that constitute a self-licking ice cream cone:

1. 30 some years of conflict/war publicity about the adventures of SOF DA raiding forces. From late 80s through 90s Grenada, Panama, Balkans, Somalia through modern day Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Mali, and other places. In all of these operations, specially trained & selected troops are often depicted carrying lesser amounts of personal rifle/carbine ammo on their body. So that becomes the visual "role model" that others emulate.

Completely ignoring the fact that these guys operate in significant numbers, with significant supporting heavy weaponry platforms (from armored vehicles to gunships), are routinely wearing mission loads of full plate body armor, multiple radios, breaching kits, NODs, etc. that all add up to pretty stiff weight. Often in very hot climates. In scenarios where mobility is key for making dynamic entries. In places where the attacking SOF force fields deliberately planned over-match against intelligence driven targets.

Something has to give, so lesser individual ammo loadout is sometimes adopted. Because they can make up for that lack with supporting arms, numbers, & exceptional skill. Also by conducting generally short duration pre-planned missions where they dictate the terms of engagement. Where reserve ammo get carried in on vehicles or aircraft. When Delta Force blows down your doors, they don't often require much ammo expenditure. Because the shooting is surgical... and you lost the moment they showed up. Because they planned for overmatch against you from the very outset.

SOF raiders can get away with light ammo loads because they have lots of heavily armed friends and on-call support. They also have superbly honed combat shooting skills... missing less than the rest of us. No small thing.

2. Real world photos or videos (plus all the imaginary movies/TV shows) depict certain specialized load bearing kit in use by these Direct Action forces. Much of it professionally made (if not custom)... and often depicting limited ammo loads. More manufacturers of top-tier load bearing gear competing for business than at any time in history. All of them earning their reputational bones by meeting the desires of very gear-conscious professional users. Then marketing those same rigs/ideas to the wider shooter community. People will buy the same minimalist rig that some SEAL or CAG guy wears without really understanding all the nuances of why he chose a particular rig.

3. Inevitably, the same minimalist gear translates well into the LEO community. Guys already burdened by a daily loadout of heavy duty belt, radio, and worn soft armor. But still having need for occasional break out of long guns, helmets, and plates. In a job where they need to be able to run, jump, chase, and grapple with miscreants... often in hot weather. Light weight minimalist load bearing gear is popular for street policing.

Just like the specialized military dudes, police tend to operate in readily reinforced numbers, with supporting platforms on quickly responsive call. Helicopters, spotter fixed wing, more tactical & patrol vehicles, K9 teams, and even armored wheeled vehicles. If they have to, they can flood the zone with dozens or even hundreds of LEO... against just one bad guy threat.

They rarely have to fight or engage in a shootout with more than one (or a couple of) criminals. Overmatch almost assured and more cavalry just a radio call and short drive away. They can get by with 3 magazines of 5.56, because they aren't fighting heavily armed numbers of maneuvering opponents. So they buy all that minimalist top tier load bearing gear as well... in departmental uniform matching colors.

Cops can get away with light ammo loads because they have lots of responsive armed friends and on-call support. And damn few bad guys to deal with during any one shooting event. Usually just singletons.

4. Every "civilian" tactical shooter reads reviews, watches movies, canvasses gear articles, studies video reviews, discusses internet board recommendations... and concludes that the same cool guy gear is for them. It can be, but it can also be exactly the wrong thing for SHTF.

5. Added to this is the overwhelming tendency for most range training (even that offered by good tactical schools) to be organized around mostly short duration "chunks" of range work. You have an artificial situation where it's a matter of convenience to carry only 2-4 rifle mags onto the firing line or into a FoF apparatus. Because that's all you typically need to practice a specific drill.

The very spacing of drill iterations, game stages, limited depth of shoot houses, and forward motion walking limitations on most ranges... are completely conducive to very limited loadouts. You do a few drills or movements... and the required ammo for that training gets expended, then needs to be replenished. You administratively go back to the ammo table to load up for the next training event. It's convenient and makes sense on the training range.

6. That reduced loadout is also easier on older frames, backs, legs, hips, ankles, etc. It's comfortable for trainers on their feet all day long. It's comfortable for paying students (who aren't actual SEALs). The limited weight and ammo helps keep everyone happy and also break down the training day into manageable chunks of break time. Plus everyone gets to compare actual gear for their Christmas list.

In aggregate, the above factors tend to influence modern tactical fashion pretty decisively. People carry less because they are more comfortable (if not lazy), they've seen some pros do it, and the minimalist gear gets heavily marketed as a cutting edge solution.

Nothing wrong with it at all. As long as you realize that Logistically speaking, it's an artificial construct not replicated in real world fights. You can burn through several magazines (on semi-auto) in just a minute or three when people are shooting back. Their are no alibi fires, no administrative ammo points, no time outs, and (often) no timely ammo resupplies.

A recurring theme I see in peoples' imaginings is the one where "Recon" equates to a vision of very stripped down and minimalist gear/ammo. When in fact, the opposite is true. "Recon" is one of the more dangerous undertakings you can ever attempt and it's the one activity where you are most likely to very quickly burn through your ammo, become encircled, become pinned down, or be forced (outnumbered) into fleeing for your life while still needing to lay down fire. In short, you should be carrying more (not less) ammo on a reconnaissance patrol. Whether into the next county... or into the adjacent property.

You can occasionally get away with going stripped down like the cats in Last of the Mohicans. But you'd better really know what you're doing before you try playing ultra-light combatant.

Be cautious about buying into the concept.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,943 Posts
An overriding tendency among a lot shooters is to wish away Murphy and carry very little ammo for defensive long guns. The ever popular minimalist 3-4 mags on a vest, load bearing rig, or piece of armor.

In my informed opinion, this is a faddish mistake popularized by several things that constitute a self-licking ice cream cone:

1. 30 some years of conflict/war publicity about the adventures of SOF DA raiding forces. From late 80s through 90s Grenada, Panama, Balkans, Somalia through modern day Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Mali, and other places. In all of these operations, specially trained & selected troops are often depicted carrying lesser amounts of personal rifle/carbine ammo on their body. So that becomes the visual "role model" that others emulate.

Completely ignoring the fact that these guys operate in significant numbers, with significant supporting heavy weaponry platforms (from armored vehicles to gunships), are routinely wearing mission loads of full plate body armor, multiple radios, breaching kits, NODs, etc. that all add up to pretty stiff weight. Often in very hot climates. In scenarios where mobility is key for making dynamic entries. In places where the attacking force fields deliberately planned over-match against intelligence driven targets.

Something has to give, so lesser individual ammo loadout is sometimes adopted. Because they can make up for that lack with supporting arms, numbers, & exceptional skill. Also by conducting generally short duration pre-planned missions where they dictate the terms of engagement. Where reserve ammo get carried in on vehicles or aircraft. When Delta Force blows down your doors, they don't often require much ammo expenditure. Because the shooting is surgical... and you lost the moment they showed up. Because they planned for overmatch against you from the very outset.

SOF raiders can get away with light ammo loads because they have lots of heavily armed friends and on-call support. They also have superbly honed combat shooting skills... missing less than the rest of us. No small thing.

2. Real world photos or videos (plus all the imaginary movies/TV shows) depict certain specialized load bearing kit in use by these Direct Action forces. Much of it professionally made (if not custom)... and often depicting limited ammo loads. More manufacturers of top-tier load bearing gear competing for business than at any time in history. All of them earning their reputational bones by meeting the desires of very gear-conscious professional users. Then marketing those same rigs/ideas to the wider shooter community. People will buy the same minimalist rig that some SEAL or CAG guy wears without really understanding all the nuances of why he chose a particular rig.

3. Inevitably, the same minimalist gear translates well into the LEO community. Guys already burdened by a daily loadout of heavy duty belt, radio, and worn soft armor. But still having need for occasional break out of long guns, helmets, and plates. In a job where they need to be able to run, jump, chase, and grapple with miscreants... often in hot weather. Light weight minimalist load bearing gear is popular for street policing.

Just like the specialized military dudes, police tend to operate in readily reinforced numbers, with supporting platforms on quickly responsive call. Helicopters, spotter fixed wing, more tactical & patrol vehicles, K9 teams, and even armored wheeled vehicles. If they have to, they can flood the zone with dozens or even hundreds of LEO... against just one bad guy threat.

They rarely have to fight or engage in a shootout with more than one (or a couple of) criminals. Overmatch almost assured and more cavalry just a radio call and short drive away. They can get by with 3 magazines of 5.56, because they aren't fighting heavily armed numbers of maneuvering opponents. So they buy all that minimalist top tier load bearing gear as well... in departmental uniform matching colors.

Cops can get away with light ammo loads because they have lots of responsive armed friends and on-call support. And damn few bad guys to deal with during any one shooting event. Usually just singletons.

4. Every "civilian" tactical shooter reads reviews, watches movies, canvasses gear articles, studies video reviews, discusses internet board recommendations... and concludes that the same cool guy gear is for them. It can be, but it can also be exactly the wrong thing for SHTF.

5. Added to this is the overwhelming tendency for most range training (even that offered by good tactical schools) to be organized around mostly short duration range work. You have an artificial situation where it's a matter of convenience to carry only 2-4 rifle mags onto the firing line or into a FoF apparatus. Because that's all you typically need.

The very spacing of drill iterations, game stages, limited depth of shoot houses, and forward motion walking limitations on most ranges... are completely conducive to very limited loadouts. You do a few drills or movements... and the required ammo for that training gets expended, then needs to be replenished. You administratively go back to the ammo table to load up for the next training event.

6. That reduced loadout is easier on older frames, backs, legs, hips, ankles, etc. It's comfortable for trainers on their feet all day long. It's comfortable for paying students (who aren't actual SEALs). The limited weight and ammo helps keep everyone happy and also break down the training day into manageable chunks of break time. Plus everyone gets to compare actual gear for their Christmas list.

In aggregate, the above factors tend to influence modern tactical fashion pretty decisively. People carry less because they are more comfortable (if not lazy), they've seen some pros do it, and the minimalist gear gets heavily marketed as a cutting edge solution.

Nothing wrong with it at all. As long as you realize that Logistically speaking, it's an artificial construct not replicated in real world fights. You can burn through several magazines (on semi-auto) in just a minute or three when people are shooting back. Their are no alibi fires, no administrative ammo points, no time outs, and (often) no timely ammo resupplies.

A recurring theme I see in peoples' imaginings is the one where "Recon" equates to a vision of very stripped down and minimalist gear/ammo. When in fact, the opposite is true. "Recon" is one of the more dangerous undertakings you can ever attempt and it's the one activity where you are most likely to very quickly burn through your ammo, become encircled, become pinned down, or be forced (outnumbered) into fleeing for your life while still needing to lay down fire. In short, you should be carrying more (not less) ammo on a reconnaissance patrol. Whether into the next county... or into the adjacent property.

You can occasionally get away with going stripped down like the cats in Last of the Mohicans. But you'd better really know what you're doing before you try playing ultra-light combatant.

Be cautious about buying into the concept.
Well said! Brother
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,394 Posts
I recently came across Snake Eater Tactical who makes a 3 part belt system with a padded middle belt. Id like to give a whirl.
That’ sounds like a much better system. The issue with the main belt with the inner belt is that the main belt usually has the very abrasive hook Velcro fabric which will tear up lighter clothing and sucks to wear it over just your g-string sleeping underwear o_O. My HSGI padded adapter is nice, but it’s not a low-profile pad. Thanks for the mention of Snake Eater Tactical…I’ll look into those a little more.

I need to pick up a chest rig. to keep in the vehicle.
If you don’t need a ton of capacity, those smaller micro rigs are nice as they can be used as a stand-alone, or attached directly to your plate carrier. They have a smaller footprint and less bulky which I’ve found makes a difference if you’re maneuvering tight spaces, crawling through windows or drainage ditches, etc.

I think this is a smart way to look at things I would say Im in a similar boat, just never thought of it in that way. I have a GHB in my vehicle, as well as a rush 72, beyond that I have a Hardigg case that I keep what I call my camping kit in. that consists of everything one needs for extended primitive camping.
The kit adds up, so it’s nice to have options, but I could realistically convert my get-home bag into a patrol pack if needed. My pack at home is also augmented by a large Stormproof case on wheels and one of the new Army duffle bag; the goal is just to move it to the truck quickly.

We have similar setups, it just took me a lot more trial and error to figure out what works best for for me…some used for work, some for hobby.

An overriding tendency among a lot shooters is to wish away Murphy and carry very little ammo for defensive long guns. The ever popular minimalist 3-4 mags on a vest, load bearing rig, or piece of armor.

In my informed opinion, this is a faddish mistake popularized by several things that constitute a self-licking ice cream cone:

Nothing wrong with it at all. As long as you realize that Logistically speaking, it's an artificial construct not replicated in real world fights. You can burn through several magazines (on semi-auto) in just a minute or three when people are shooting back. Their are no alibi fires, no administrative ammo points, no time outs, and (often) no timely ammo resupplies.

Be cautious about buying into the concept.
You have some very valid points @Astronomy, the concept was really build for very short duration missions and not firefights. The caution is to understand the concept and the limitations. Even the standard combat load (210 rounds) is pretty minimalist for a firefight...but that also includes heavy support weapons, greater forces with usually some type of QRF on speed dial and in some situations, air support and artillery.

I'm at a certain point in my life where a dozen magazines on the chest is going to do more damage to me in just dynamic movement drills than being shot at in the real world. I have to balance weight, ammo capacity, mission weight, maneuverability, injury prevention, and really understand the threat assessment. I understand the limitations of a minimalist load, but I also understand my own physical limitations. It's a calculated risk that for 99% of domestic needs, I don't need 300+rounds of rifle ammo on me. Period. I'm not talking combat, but even still, my tactics will adapt to my load. Heavy loads are for mobile operations; if I'm foot marching to a firefight with 450+rounds, it's Armageddon and one-way trip!

Your caution is well advised. At my "ready ammo" of just 180 rounds (including a 30 round mag carbine), that is enough for self defense, a very short engagement, and just enough to allow me to break contact while light enough I can maneuver at faster speeds without blowing out a knee, spraining an ankle, or having a stroke o_O

I do have anywhere from 4-6 spare mags in my patrol pack, but chances are that is already in a cache at an OPR or dumped if I'm really running to break contact. The reality of what you can feasibly carry (on foot) should really make you assess your mission, logistics, and the threat.

ROCK6
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,324 Posts
An overriding tendency among a lot today's shooters is to wish away Murphy and carry very little ammo for defensive long guns. The ever popular minimalist 3-4 carbine magazines on a vest, load bearing rig, or piece of armor.

In my informed opinion, this is a faddish mistake popularized by several things that constitute a self-licking ice cream cone:

1. 30 some years of conflict/war publicity about the adventures of SOF DA raiding forces. From late 80s through 90s Grenada, Panama, Balkans, Somalia through modern day Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Mali, and other places. In all of these operations, specially trained & selected troops are often depicted carrying lesser amounts of personal rifle/carbine ammo on their body. So that becomes the visual "role model" that others emulate.

Completely ignoring the fact that these guys operate in significant numbers, with significant supporting heavy weaponry platforms (from armored vehicles to gunships), are routinely wearing mission loads of full plate body armor, multiple radios, breaching kits, NODs, etc. that all add up to pretty stiff weight. Often in very hot climates. In scenarios where mobility is key for making dynamic entries. In places where the attacking force fields deliberately planned over-match against intelligence driven targets.

Something has to give, so lesser individual ammo loadout is sometimes adopted. Because they can make up for that lack with supporting arms, numbers, & exceptional skill. Also by conducting generally short duration pre-planned missions where they dictate the terms of engagement. Where reserve ammo get carried in on vehicles or aircraft. When Delta Force blows down your doors, they don't often require much ammo expenditure. Because the shooting is surgical... and you lost the moment they showed up. Because they planned for overmatch against you from the very outset.

SOF raiders can get away with light ammo loads because they have lots of heavily armed friends and on-call support. They also have superbly honed combat shooting skills... missing less than the rest of us. No small thing.

2. Real world photos or videos (plus all the imaginary movies/TV shows) depict certain specialized load bearing kit in use by these Direct Action forces. Much of it professionally made (if not custom)... and often depicting limited ammo loads. More manufacturers of top-tier load bearing gear competing for business than at any time in history. All of them earning their reputational bones by meeting the desires of very gear-conscious professional users. Then marketing those same rigs/ideas to the wider shooter community. People will buy the same minimalist rig that some SEAL or CAG guy wears without really understanding all the nuances of why he chose a particular rig.

3. Inevitably, the same minimalist gear translates well into the LEO community. Guys already burdened by a daily loadout of heavy duty belt, radio, and worn soft armor. But still having need for occasional break out of long guns, helmets, and plates. In a job where they need to be able to run, jump, chase, and grapple with miscreants... often in hot weather. Light weight minimalist load bearing gear is popular for street policing.

Just like the specialized military dudes, police tend to operate in readily reinforced numbers, with supporting platforms on quickly responsive call. Helicopters, spotter fixed wing, more tactical & patrol vehicles, K9 teams, and even armored wheeled vehicles. If they have to, they can flood the zone with dozens or even hundreds of LEO... against just one bad guy threat.

They rarely have to fight or engage in a shootout with more than one (or a couple of) criminals. Overmatch almost assured and more cavalry just a radio call and short drive away. They can get by with 3 magazines of 5.56, because they aren't fighting heavily armed numbers of maneuvering opponents. So they buy all that minimalist top tier load bearing gear as well... in departmental uniform matching colors.

Cops can get away with light ammo loads because they have lots of responsive armed friends and on-call support. And damn few bad guys to deal with during any one shooting event. Usually just singletons.

4. Every "civilian" tactical shooter reads reviews, watches movies, canvasses gear articles, studies video reviews, discusses internet board recommendations... and concludes that the same cool guy gear is for them. It can be, but it can also be exactly the wrong thing for SHTF.

5. Added to this is the overwhelming tendency for most range training (even that offered by good tactical schools) to be organized around mostly short duration "chunks" of range work. You have an artificial situation where it's a matter of convenience to carry only 2-4 rifle mags onto the firing line or into a FoF apparatus. Because that's all you typically need to practice a specific drill.

The very spacing of drill iterations, game stages, limited depth of shoot houses, and forward motion walking limitations on most ranges... are completely conducive to very limited loadouts. You do a few drills or movements... and the required ammo for that training gets expended, then needs to be replenished. You administratively go back to the ammo table to load up for the next training event. It's convenient and makes sense on the training range.

6. That reduced loadout is also easier on older frames, backs, legs, hips, ankles, etc. It's comfortable for trainers on their feet all day long. It's comfortable for paying students (who aren't actual SEALs). The limited weight and ammo helps keep everyone happy and also break down the training day into manageable chunks of break time. Plus everyone gets to compare actual gear for their Christmas list.

In aggregate, the above factors tend to influence modern tactical fashion pretty decisively. People carry less because they are more comfortable (if not lazy), they've seen some pros do it, and the minimalist gear gets heavily marketed as a cutting edge solution.

Nothing wrong with it at all. As long as you realize that Logistically speaking, it's an artificial construct not replicated in real world fights. You can burn through several magazines (on semi-auto) in just a minute or three when people are shooting back. Their are no alibi fires, no administrative ammo points, no time outs, and (often) no timely ammo resupplies.

A recurring theme I see in peoples' imaginings is the one where "Recon" equates to a vision of very stripped down and minimalist gear/ammo. When in fact, the opposite is true. "Recon" is one of the more dangerous undertakings you can ever attempt and it's the one activity where you are most likely to very quickly burn through your ammo, become encircled, become pinned down, or be forced (outnumbered) into fleeing for your life while still needing to lay down fire. In short, you should be carrying more (not less) ammo on a reconnaissance patrol. Whether into the next county... or into the adjacent property.

You can occasionally get away with going stripped down like the cats in Last of the Mohicans. But you'd better really know what you're doing before you try playing ultra-light combatant.

Be cautious about buying into the concept.
I couldn't have said this better myself! I recently read Rob O'Neil's book (SEAL who killed OBL) and he stated even on his hairiest mission, he carried 4 magazines, with no handgun. That was 3 in his vest and one in his rifle. I was astonished!! I served when stories of Somalia (Blackhawk Down) were circulating and the thought of running out of ammo made us all carry extra! I have a friend who was a Marine SAW gunner in Iraq...he routinely carried 1000 rounds belted...that was a saw pouch on each side, front and back with one in his SAW (he was a beast, with arms like tractors).

The combat loadout of 180-210 rounds always sounded light to me. I have set up each rifle to carry an extra magazine on the buttstock, starting the day out with 60 rounds. Switch out the rifle mag for a Surefire 60 rounder and that has upped the ante quite a bit, never mind what I can comfortably carry on my carrier.

I do feel many guys carry too many handgun magazines, and instead should carry more rifle mags, as the pistol is supposed to be defensive in nature.

Multiple rigs have their place. Having a rig with steel plates left in your daily driver could turn the tide in your favor, with the steel not degrading over time like the lightweight plates. Worst case if you do take a round in your expensive ceramic plate but are able to put down the threat, it would be better to have a back up set of plates to switch out to.

Stay safe out there!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,394 Posts
I do feel many guys carry too many handgun magazines, and instead should carry more rifle mags, as the pistol is supposed to be defensive in nature.
I read an article that covered the various handguns carried by various WWII Soldiers, not issued, just "acquired". I was shocked to see how many were smaller handguns (The Beretta Model 34 really stuck out to me) like the Walther PPK and other smaller .32ACP and .380ACP. Given our modern proclivity towards larger self-defensive handguns, the reasonsing from many of the written comments were to have something small as the combat load was already heavy and I just need something for emergencies. Interesting concept and I sort of used that when I was working 550 miles away from home in VA for about 8 months. I took my "get home" kit, but instead of a full size or even compact handgun, I just had two micro 9mm's for CCW (Glock 43 and P365). If you're primary weapons is a long gun, how big or how much pistol ammo do you you really need? It's an interesting question once you start really scrutinizing the mission and kit weight.

Multiple rigs have their place. Having a rig with steel plates left in your daily driver could turn the tide in your favor, with the steel not degrading over time like the lightweight plates. Worst case if you do take a round in your expensive ceramic plate but are able to put down the threat, it would be better to have a back up set of plates to switch out to.
I really dislike the steel plates from a comfort and weight perspective, but this is actually where such plates shine. You don't want to leave you $1000+lightweight plates in your truck when it's 100 degree outside all summer; steel plates are unaffected. The bonus is that if I need them, it will likely just be worn when driving, not walking (or not walking far!).

ROCK6
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,732 Posts
ROCK6: If you're primary weapons is a long gun, how big or how much pistol ammo do you you really need? It's an interesting question once you start really scrutinizing the mission and kit weight.
Good point.

In early Afghanistan, out in the middle of nowhere, and without all the later troop/logistics/military infrastructure buildup, everyone I was around carried a long gun and a pistol. Essentially you were on your own for any contact (meaning you had the ammo you brought to the dance). QRF and ammo resupply being far, far away and mostly deliverable only by aircraft. Resupply delivered in terms of hours at best. More often in terms of days.

I carried three magazines for my Beretta M9. One in the weapon, two on the body. I rarely saw anyone carry more than that. It was enough. Because we all had long guns.

In Iraq, I carried 4 mags for a 1911A1. One up the pipe and 3 on body. They were commercial 8-10 rounders, but still not a vast load of pistol ammo. Again... plenty. Because we all carried long guns.

My philosophy is that when you start to think you should carry a lot of pistol ammo... you really need more rifle magazines.

Unless the pistol is your only weapon. In that case, carry more. I just never devoted much load bearing gear real estate to pistol mag pouches. A double or triple carrier for 9mm double stack mags; a quad pouch for single stack .45 ACP.
 

·
Fenced In
Joined
·
3,439 Posts
My philosophy is that when you start to think you should carry a lot of pistol ammo... you really need more rifle magazines.

Unless the pistol is your only weapon. In that case, carry more. I just never devoted much load bearing gear real estate to pistol mag pouches. A double or triple carrier for 9mm double stack mags; a quad pouch for single stack .45 ACP.
It's funny, I've often found myself saying that I wouldn't "jump" to a different platform or caliber, and then I inevitably end up doing so, such as when I (honestly, at the time) declared that I wouldn't buy an AR15 because I didn't need one. However, some of that was from a justification perspective, already having the king of pistol caliber carbines - a Hi-Point, of course - and later a Kel-Tec. At the time, the idea of a "rig" wasn't even on my radar, but having eventually drank the AR Kool-Aid, I find it more of a challenge to actually come up with a good way to integrate a pistol and mags into the multiple rigs I've put together over time. What gun? How many mags?

I spend a bit of time on Reddit, and some guy posted pictures of an entirely pistol-oriented chest/belt setup, where he was relentlessly mocked for having invested in so many pistol mags and mag pouches without any (apparent) thought to a rifle. However, it did cross my mind that he might for some reason not be able to own an AR or similar, and that, if the bullets start flying, not too many folks are going to pay close attention at how big those bullets are. I know that once my mind starts doing some mental gymnastics thinking about ammo choices, I go pretty far down the proverbial rabbit hole, and start spending so much time thinking about topics like defeating barriers or fragmentation that the simple insert-bullet-into-meat concept gets overlooked. Depending on the intended role of a particular rig, going pistol-heavy would have its place.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
699 Posts
As far a ammo is concerned. I think of it as line gear however I supplemented a line 0 which is my EDC, L1/L2/L3 are meant to supplement each other . I want to be able operate and sustain the weapons Im carrying at any given time. So for me... (firearms/ammo wise).. Im running the following, without going into too much detail, to save space, time and avoid the rabbit hole of this is my entire set up.

Line 0 = My EDC usually 9mm AIWB with an extra mag. Typically a G19 so 30rnds unless Im carrying a smaller pistol for concealment purposes.
L1 = My battle belt with 3 Mags and 2 rifle mags plus 1 in each gun so 90rnds rifle and depending on the pistol Im carrying its (60/84rnds), 2 rifle mags(60rnds)
L2 = My PC which has 2 pistol mags (30/42rnds) and 7 rifle mags(210rnds)
L3= 72hr 300rnds rifle and 180. resupply

I spent quite a bit of time contemplating the configuration of my gear and have settled on the having 1 set up that is supplemented by swapping out a few small easily interchangeable components that will not change the configuration. everything is in the same location no matter what. no confusion. When/if the SHTF and when/if gunfight ensues I dont want to have to think about where anything is and which rig I wore out of the house today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,394 Posts
Unless the pistol is your only weapon. In that case, carry more. I just never devoted much load bearing gear real estate to pistol mag pouches. A double or triple carrier for 9mm double stack mags; a quad pouch for single stack .45 ACP.
I’ll be honest and struggle with this. It’s easy to focus on a combat load for combat operations, but I honestly see more of a regional, low-intensity environment where you could easily go from direct action missions in a non-permissive environment to a concealed carry/low profile recon or intel mission in a slightly more permissive environment. You cache your rifle and strip off your overt fighting gear for some regular clothes and CCW. I can see the value of having a few extra magazines for your handgun here.

Maybe I’m over-thinking the environment, but it’s what I get paid to do.

I have my “travel” kit pretty well refined and while I am heavier on pistols (carried CCW, G19 on a covert battle belt, and an AR “pistol”), I know I could load up my drab colored pack and walk into a hotel lobby without getting any much attention with my full kit loaded up (in the pack). When we travel (like we will this weekend to Jacksonville, FL), I can go from low-threat ready to initial SHTF stages, and meet my bare minimum for an overt, SHTF defensive posture. It’s not much of a “fighting” kit, but would do so in a pinch and for minor engagements with the primary missions of breaking contact, and E&E back home.

This is a different rig and setup for these types of "missions". And I don't have a chest rig and my armor is conceable plates and only Level IIIA. I do need to get a set of ceramic plates I can leave in the truck (not doing that with my higher end plates), but it's just an assessed risk level decision.

ROCK6
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,732 Posts
ROCK6: It’s easy to focus on a combat load for combat operations, but I honestly see more of a regional, low-intensity environment where you could easily go from direct action missions in a non-permissive environment to a concealed carry/low profile recon or intel mission in a slightly more permissive environment. You cache your rifle and strip off your overt fighting gear for some regular clothes and CCW. I can see the value of having a few extra magazines for your handgun here.
Agree totally. This is the kind of fluid threat existence where pistols shine due to their concealability & flexibility... and where extra loaded pistol magazines / revolver speed loaders are advisable. If the pistol becomes your primary (for any reason)... plus up the walking around ammo if possible.

Back in the European Cold War Era (and later in the fractured Balkans), we'd often wear pistols under low profile native civilian clothing. Leaving the heavier .mil uniforms/gear/weaponry in a safe place while we ventured into populated areas to mingle. Just another fish swimming in a school of similar appearing fish... but still an armed fish because of that portable and discrete handgun.

Sometimes that appropriate change of clothing & handgun was specifically brought along as pre-planned special mission gear. For those nominated to conduct tradecraft activities, linkups, clandestine surveillance, etc. Might bring along pistols and spare civilian clothing for just two or three guys out of ten or twelve. Or the same for all hands. Mission dependent.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,394 Posts
Might bring along pistols and spare civilian clothing for just two or three guys out of ten or twelve. Or the same for all hands. Mission dependent.
That was SOP for 7SFG(A) in South America...khakis and a black polo 🤣 That was more for mingling in a dance club, not quite grayman, but there's value in tomorrow's low-intensity situations to have that flexibility and having a concealed carry option.

ROCK6
 
21 - 40 of 63 Posts
Top