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Discussion Starter #1
I love Italy!
The country and the people as well. So much that I had planned to travel there in April. As you can imagine, I've cancelled all my plans...
I'm reading the Corriere della sera.

https://www.corriere.it/salute/mala...zo-9f67e4ee-647f-11ea-90f7-c3419f46e6a5.shtml

There's been more than one hundred deaths each day, with total now above one thousand (1016 deceduti). It started small. 2 weeks ago, I was reading it was like the flu, but it seems to be totally out of control, now.
 

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reading that its due to their high age relative

phew you had me worried there for a few
 

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Indefatigable
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I just read a story about an Italian man and his family who had been quarantined with dead grandma for 3 days before anyone would come pick up the body.
I'm not surprised in the least, I just wondered when it was going to start.
 

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Couple other factors that might make a difference is that a lot of European cities have a very high population density. Also, the plague ships have regular cruise port of call in Italian ports.

Also, you need to keep in mind that Italy has a very large number of Chinese sweatshop factories. Here's an article already 6 years old:

"Insight: Italy's Chinese garment workshops boom as workers suffer"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-boom-as-workers-suffer-idUSBRE9BS04D20131229

50,000 Chinese workers, just in that area in Italy alone.

This one is better:
"Made in Italy" The Cost of Cachet
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/minority-report/201807/made-in-italy

"...Chinese business owners invested in Italy and became proprietors running their own mills, landing lucrative subcontracting work from major Italian brands, and employing thousands upon thousands of Chinese through a complicated network of human trafficking, purportedly tied to the Chinese Mafia."

Anyone want to bet that the Chinese and Italian mafia have a gentleman's arrangement, and a whole lot of infected Chinese go in/out of Italy?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I've been 6 weeks in Lucca 4 years ago (very close to Prato), I don't remember seeing a single Asian person. I've seen a couple in Alessandria 2 years ago, that's it. There's way more Asian people in CA. The immigrants you see in Italy are Africans or Arabs.

Now, I could change the topic's title, there were 250 deaths yesterday. That's more than 10 people dying every hour.

https://www.corriere.it/salute/20_m...zo-15b1622c-654a-11ea-86da-7c7313c791fe.shtml
 

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Couple other factors that might make a difference is that a lot of European cities have a very high population density. Also, the plague ships have regular cruise port of call in Italian ports.

Also, you need to keep in mind that Italy has a very large number of Chinese sweatshop factories. Here's an article already 6 years old:

"Insight: Italy's Chinese garment workshops boom as workers suffer"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-boom-as-workers-suffer-idUSBRE9BS04D20131229

50,000 Chinese workers, just in that area in Italy alone.

This one is better:
"Made in Italy" The Cost of Cachet
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/minority-report/201807/made-in-italy

"...Chinese business owners invested in Italy and became proprietors running their own mills, landing lucrative subcontracting work from major Italian brands, and employing thousands upon thousands of Chinese through a complicated network of human trafficking, purportedly tied to the Chinese Mafia."

Anyone want to bet that the Chinese and Italian mafia have a gentleman's arrangement, and a whole lot of infected Chinese go in/out of Italy?
The truth? The numbers are high because they arent being smart about it like other countries.
Stop testing them, easy. No test, no coronavirus death +1.
US and UK figured this out way before other developed countries and the sensation achieved is that things arent that bad, hurts the economy a lot less.
Who cares if some 99 year old dies? They die every day, all day long.
Stop testing them, stop having those numbers through the roof and let things sort themselves out with as little damage to the economy as possible.
Look what Boris Jhonson did, it was genius. Came out and said "we probably have 10k infected by now". But the arent testign peopel so on paper a year from now it will be just a few hundred infected. The NHS will let you die anyway and people already are ok with that even before coronavirus. No big deal. Fake it until you make it. Words to live by.
 

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This is on them.

Instead of being smart capitalist and outsourcing labor, many Italians decided that importing Chinese to do their work, particularly leather work, was a bright idea so they can keep that "Made in Italy" tag on their luxury market items.


Yes, that $14,000 leather purse was assembled for $5 worth of cheap slave labor.


Hope it was worth it lol.
 

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I am interrogative, yes.
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From an Italian to the rest of the world: you have no idea about what's coming.

"(First thing first I'm sorry for any eventual grammar errors but English isn't my first lenguage Second, this is a repost because in another sub people asked me to post it on r/Coronavirus but it doesn't accept it, so I came here as the rules advised).

As I think everybody knows, Italy is on quarantine because of the coronavirus outbreak. That means that everybody has to stay home unless you've got valid reasons to go out. This situation is bad, but what's worse is seeing the rest of the world behaving as if nothing's going to happen to them. We know what you're thinking because we were in your place too.

Let's see how thing developed (keep in mind it all happened in around 2 weeks):

STAGE 1. You know that coronavirus exists, and the first cases begin to appear in your country. Well, nothing to worry about, it's just a bad flu! I mean I'm not 75+yo so what could possibly happen to me? I'm safe, everybody is overreacting, what's the need to go out with masks and stock toilet paper? I'm going to live my life as usual, there's no need to freak out.

STAGE 2. The number of cases begins to be significant. They declare "red zone" and quarantine one or two small cities where they found the first cases and a lot of people were infected (~22/02). Well that's sad and somewhat worrisome but they're taking care of it so nothing to panic about. There are some deaths but they're all old people with other pathologies so the media is just trying to create panic for views, how shameful. People lead their life as usual, I mean I'm not going to stop going out and meeting my friends and so on am I? There's no need to. It's not going to get me. Everybody's fine here.

STAGE 3. The number of cases is rapidly going up. They almost doubled in one day. There's more deaths. They declare red zones and quarantine the 4 regions where the majority of cases are registered (7/03). In Italy at this point 1/4 of the county is under quarantine, schools and universities are closed in these areas but bars, work places, restaurants and so on are still open. The decree gets released by some newspaper before it should so around 10k people from the red zone escape from the area that same night to return to their homes in the rest of Italy (this will be important later). Most of the population of the remaing 3/4 of Italy still does what it always does, a portion of the quarantined too. They still don't realize the seriousness of the situation. I mean yes, everywhere you turn they talk about the coronavirus, they advise to wash your hands and limit your going out, assemblies of large numbers of people are forbidden and so on, every 5 minutes on TV they remind you of these rules. But it still hasn't settled in people's minds.

STAGE 4. The number of cases is heavily increasing. Schools and universities are closed everywhere for at least a month. It's a national health emergency. Hospitals are at capacity, entire units are cleared to make space for coronavirus patients. There aren't enough doctors and nurses, they're calling retired ones and those who are in the last 2 years of university, there's no shifts any more, just work as much as you can. Of course doctors and nurses are getting infected, spreading it to their families and so on. There's too many cases of pneumonia, too many people who need ICU and not enough places for everyone. The same goes for respiraty aids (I don't know if that's the correct name). At this point is like being at war: doctors have to choose who to treat based on their survival chance, that means that the elderly and trauma/stroke patients can't get treated because corona cases have the priority. There's not enough resources for everybody so they have to be distributed for the best outcome. I wish I was joking but it's literally what has been happening. People have died because there wasn't any more space, I have a doctor friend who called me devasteted because he had to let 3 people die that day, nurses crying because they see people dying in front of them and can't do anything aside from offering some oxygen. A friend's relatice died yesterday of corona because they couldn't treat him. Chemios have been delayed until further notice. It's chaos, the system is collapsing. Coronavirus and the crisis it's provoking is all you hear about everywhere.

STAGE 5. Rember the 10k idiot who ran from the red zone to the rest of Italy? Well, the entire country has to be declared under quarantine (9/03). The goal is to delay the spreading of the virus as much as possible. People can go to work, do the grocery shopping, go to the farmacy, and all businesses are still open because otherwise the economy would collapse (it already is), but you can't move from your comune (which is like a municipality I guess) unless you have a valid reason. Now there's fear, you see a lot of people with masks and gloves around but there are still are people who think that they're invincible, who go to restaurants in large groups, hang out with friends to drink and so on. Next step.

STAGE 6. 2 days later, it's announced that all (most) businesses are closed: bars, restaurants, shopping centers, all kinds of shops etc. Everything except supermarkets and pharmacies. You can move around only if you have an autocertification with you, which is an official document in which you declare your name, where you're coming from, where you're going and what for. There are a lot of police check points, if you're found outside without a valid reason you risk a fine up to €206, and if you're a known positive patient you risk from 1 to 12 years of jail for homicide.

So that's what the situation is like now today as of the 12/03. Keep in mind that it all happened in around 2 weeks, 5 DAYS FROM STAGE 3 TO NOW.

The rest of the world apart from Italy, China and Korea is just now beginning to reach the other stages, so let me tell you this: you have no idea what's coming to get you. I know because 2 weeks ago I was the one who had no idea and though that it wasn't that bad. But it is. And not because the virus alone is particularly dangerous or deadly, but for all the consequences it brings. It's hard to see all these countries act like it's not coming and not taking the precautions that are necessary for the well-being of its citizens while they still can, so please if you're reading this try to act in your best interest. This problem isn't going to solve itself by ignoring it. Just wondering how many undiscovered cases there might be in America alone is scary, and they're in for a big, big trouble because of how their country is run.

Our government for once did a good job I must say. The actions taken were drastic but necessary, and this may be the only way to limit the spreading. It's working in China so we hope it will work here to (it's already working in some of the first red zones which we're quarantined before everybody else). Also they're taking measures to protect us citizens such as suspending mortgage payments for next months, help for shop owners who were obligated to close and so on.

I realize that these takes are really difficult, if not impossible, to take in some countries and it's really worrying to think about what it could mean in global scale. I see a very dark time ahead of us all over the world and it makes me so angry to see all these countries not taking action while they can. I wonder if this pandemic will be a turning point in our society, what do you think?

So guys, if there are cases where you live, then the virus is spreading, and you're maybe 1 or 2 weeks behind us, but you'll get to our point eventually. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take any precaution you can take, don't act like it's not going to get you, and, if you can, STAY HOME.

(Avete capito italiani? STATE. A. CASA.)

Edit: although this is tagged as unverified content, you can talk to any Italian and they will tell you that the situation is exactly this. My goal isn't to create panic but to inform people about what's really going on. I may add that yes, you can go out to walk your dog and go grocery shopping but you have to follow the 1 metre rule (people are literally avoiding each other as much as possible on the streets) and you need to have your autocertification with you. Everybody is strongly advised to stay home unless for basic necessities, and at this point whoever goes out without a real reason is an idiot. Some "campaigns" have been launched to sensibilize people to stay home (like #iorestoacasa, litelly "i stay home"). Also some factories and other workplaces like that are still running, but at least in my city everything else is closed, from shops to bars to restaurant. Also yes, there's food for everybody and it's guaranteed by the government that it will stay this way. The best way to stop the spreading is to reduce human contact as much as possible, if you can stay home!"

From a verified account at Reddit.
 

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More than likely this is why the slower initial numbers in the US, slow roll of testing. Need an american made test, better optics & “legitimate” reason behind the slow roll. However testing is beginning to pick up, and as it does so will positive numbers.

Mind, however, testing or not will in no way slow down influx into hospitals one bit. Sick folks are sick, regardless of why.

The truth? The numbers are high because they arent being smart about it like other countries.
Stop testing them, easy. No test, no coronavirus death +1.
US and UK figured this out way before other developed countries and the sensation achieved is that things arent that bad, hurts the economy a lot less.
Who cares if some 99 year old dies? They die every day, all day long.
Stop testing them, stop having those numbers through the roof and let things sort themselves out with as little damage to the economy as possible.
Look what Boris Jhonson did, it was genius. Came out and said "we probably have 10k infected by now". But the arent testign peopel so on paper a year from now it will be just a few hundred infected. The NHS will let you die anyway and people already are ok with that even before coronavirus. No big deal. Fake it until you make it. Words to live by.
As to passing of elderly being acceptable, not one bit. Not in the gen pop, not in healthcare & not on any media outlet.

Least ways not in our society, in the US, not amongst normal folks anyhow.

Not stating YOU @ferfal stating such as ok, just pointing out a societal non-acceptance of anyones life being more worthwhile than any other.

Mind, I’m writing this between a break from packing up my carry on bag. To fly back to the East Coast, because my healthy & active Octogenarian father passed suddenly & unexpectedly last night. Non related to Covid-19, however my heart is broken & would be broken just the same.

Had a very long conversation with him just yesterday...
 

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D. Gibbons is a bad man
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Couple other factors that might make a difference is that a lot of European cities have a very high population density. Also, the plague ships have regular cruise port of call in Italian ports.

Also, you need to keep in mind that Italy has a very large number of Chinese sweatshop factories. Here's an article already 6 years old:

"Insight: Italy's Chinese garment workshops boom as workers suffer"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-boom-as-workers-suffer-idUSBRE9BS04D20131229

50,000 Chinese workers, just in that area in Italy alone.

This one is better:
"Made in Italy" The Cost of Cachet
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/minority-report/201807/made-in-italy

"...Chinese business owners invested in Italy and became proprietors running their own mills, landing lucrative subcontracting work from major Italian brands, and employing thousands upon thousands of Chinese through a complicated network of human trafficking, purportedly tied to the Chinese Mafia."

Anyone want to bet that the Chinese and Italian mafia have a gentleman's arrangement, and a whole lot of infected Chinese go in/out of Italy?
There are concentrations of Chinese but we would have to assume they are a highly mobile population. I am not going to make that assumption especially when that once a year visit back to China for the New Year was severely restricted in 2020.
 

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I'm so very sorry for your loss Camelfilter.
Thanks. Quite the shock/unexpected. A very good husband, father, uncle & just in general to everyone.

Not meaning to derail the thread, either. Just pointing out the meaningfulness of everyone, regardless of age.

Will be interesting to see how the flights/flying goes. Hubs through LAX and Charlotte ugh!!

Mum wanted me home regardless if I get infected or not, my risk group is rather low, hers is exceedingly high. She understands such though, still wants me home.

If I can finagle her into moving out here with us, or an extended visit, we will most likely drive back, rather than flying. Markedly reducing her to further exposure enroute. Not so sure yet she wants to come out though, we’ll see.

Dad had set her up nicely where they are at, rather than there old house, last year. Downsized, closer to services & shopping. Almost all walkable, or quick Uber. Townhouse, but had an elevator installed. Rated cat 4+ hurricane, or some such, with outside Kevlar curtains etc.

Cashed out of there higher risk stuff early on, so missed the brunt of the drop.

Bumped up there short term stores to there liking as well.
 

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More than likely this is why the slower initial numbers in the US, slow roll of testing. Need an american made test, better optics & “legitimate” reason behind the slow roll. However testing is beginning to pick up, and as it does so will positive numbers.

Mind, however, testing or not will in no way slow down influx into hospitals one bit. Sick folks are sick, regardless of why.



As to passing of elderly being acceptable, not one bit. Not in the gen pop, not in healthcare & not on any media outlet.

Least ways not in our society, in the US, not amongst normal folks anyhow.

Not stating YOU @ferfal stating such as ok, just pointing out a societal non-acceptance of anyones life being more worthwhile than any other.

Mind, I’m writing this between a break from packing up my carry on bag. To fly back to the East Coast, because my healthy & active Octogenarian father passed suddenly & unexpectedly last night. Non related to Covid-19, however my heart is broken & would be broken just the same.

Had a very long conversation with him just yesterday...
Man, I'm so sorry to hear this, yet very grateful that you got to speak at length to him beforehand.

EDIT: Please be as safe as you can on your travels good sir.
 

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All I know is that human trafficking typically involves skirting usual points of entry. And if such humans are infected, the odds of them being properly screened for anything at all is basically zero.

I guess we're "lucky" in that our major Fortune-500 companies simply laid off tens/hundreds of thousands of tradesmen and engineers since the 1970's, closed down the factories and moved operations to China.

Imagine if covid-19, or something much worse, originated in Mexico. With all the illegals that Big-Ag, the trades, hospitality, and god knows how many other sectors in the southern US employ, we'd have the zombie plague all over the place.
 

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The Black Death
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All I know is that human trafficking typically involves skirting usual points of entry. And if such humans are infected, the odds of them being properly screened for anything at all is basically zero.

I guess we're "lucky" in that our major Fortune-500 companies simply laid off tens/hundreds of thousands of tradesmen and engineers since the 1970's, closed down the factories and moved operations to China.

Imagine if covid-19, or something much worse, originated in Mexico. With all the illegals that Big-Ag, the trades, hospitality, and god knows how many other sectors in the southern US employ, we'd have the zombie plague all over the place.
I work in information systems, and the US under democrat and republican leadership have imported millions from India to work for pennies on the dollar.
 

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IT is a cut throat field. Been in it 25 years myself. I sort of wish I could get fired, and I'd transition to something like real estate or insurance. But I guess I'm still useful, or maybe my job needs to be a US citizen for security reasons.
 

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More than likely this is why the slower initial numbers in the US, slow roll of testing. Need an american made test, better optics & “legitimate” reason behind the slow roll. However testing is beginning to pick up, and as it does so will positive numbers.

Mind, however, testing or not will in no way slow down influx into hospitals one bit. Sick folks are sick, regardless of why.



As to passing of elderly being acceptable, not one bit. Not in the gen pop, not in healthcare & not on any media outlet.

Least ways not in our society, in the US, not amongst normal folks anyhow.

Not stating YOU @ferfal stating such as ok, just pointing out a societal non-acceptance of anyones life being more worthwhile than any other.

Mind, I’m writing this between a break from packing up my carry on bag. To fly back to the East Coast, because my healthy & active Octogenarian father passed suddenly & unexpectedly last night. Non related to Covid-19, however my heart is broken & would be broken just the same.

Had a very long conversation with him just yesterday...
Man... so sorry for your loss.
Whats happening is pretty terrible and governments, they will not admit it but they are making some very hard, cold hearted choices.
There's this doctor in Italy I was reading about, chief of staff in one of these hospitals, he said that if he got sick, he would ask not to be treated and save the supplies for a younger person. Another sick doctor in Italy kept on treating people until he coudnt take it any more, collapsed and died. True hero right there.
 
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