[junglecrawler]

Quick question folks; will the economic situation leading to depression be a long, agonizing death rattle, or quick bedlam?
I'm hoping or the latter. A long, drawn out slide into depression will just eat away at one's resources, and leave you not knowing when to bug or if you should hang on just that bit longer in the food line ups and work-a-day fistfights at the docks. But I"m not educated enough to predict. What are all your thoughts?

 

[compboy]

Both the 1930's and the 1990's were long drawn out situations crime will go up due to lack of social programs social programs will be cut. Many more people will be homeless then now. it'll be a death rattle. not fast and in your face if society does even fall. it's more a SHTF then end of the world as we know it from my point of view.

All we need now is a war and that would fix it. Not that I am in favor of war but it would fix the economic crisis. I mean a short violent one that gets everyone motivated not a long drawn out one people lose interest in. I sound like a war monger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_1980s_recession

 

[test]

Both the 1930's and the 1990's were long drawn out situations crime will go up due to lack of social programs social programs will be cut. Many more people will be homeless then now. it'll be a death rattle. not fast and in your face if society does even fall. it's more a SHTF then end of the world as we know it from my point of view.

All we need now is a war and that would fix it. Not that I am in favor of war but it would fix the economic crisis. I mean a short violent one that gets everyone motivated not a long drawn out one people lose interest in. I sound like a war monger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_1980s_recession

Quite frankly Social programs are what have given us the crime rate we have today. Too damned many people have gotten lazy, parents dont keep their kids in school, free money for their drugs... When people work and dont expect handouts they dont sit around wasting time, they dont have TIME to become burdens on society they add to it. Look at the rise in crime since 64 when LBJ signed the welfare act and see what happened. Then take a look at the resulting rise in crime every time congress autorized more spending on "social programs". Its just like VD, thats why it's called a "social disease". Take the money, pay the rent directly, and supply the food directly, like it USED to be done. Screw this human dignity crap. a little shame will make the welfare mongers get jobs. History has proven this so. What? no jobs you say? Where is our food being produced? our clothes? all durable goods? Not everything is imported. And we can compete with the imports if we do two things.... First get rid of the illegal aliens and take those jobs back, and secondly stop expecting twenty plus dollars an hour for production line work. There is no way this country can continue economically when a factory worker or janitor is paid as much or more than a highly skilled worker. It has to stop. THAT my friends is what has destroyed the American economy... GREED.

Oh yeah one other thing... WE ALREADY ARE AT WAR AND IT ISN'T HELPING!!!!!!!!!

 

[rridgeoutlaw]

Palladin, You are exactly right. When the Goverment decided to make it easy for People not to work/be productive or let the Buisnesses move to Mexico/India for cheap labor (because American workers got greedy) we shot ourselves in the foot.

 

[compboy]

Quite frankly Social programs are what have given us the crime rate we have today. Too damned many people have gotten lazy, parents dont keep their kids in school, free money for their drugs... When people work and dont expect handouts they dont sit around wasting time, they dont have TIME to become burdens on society they add to it. Look at the rise in crime since 64 when LBJ signed the welfare act and see what happened. Then take a look at the resulting rise in crime every time congress autorized more spending on "social programs". Its just like VD, thats why it's called a "social disease". Take the money, pay the rent directly, and supply the food directly, like it USED to be done. Screw this human dignity crap. a little shame will make the welfare mongers get jobs. History has proven this so. What? no jobs you say? Where is our food being produced? our clothes? all durable goods? Not everything is imported. And we can compete with the imports if we do two things.... First get rid of the illegal aliens and take those jobs back, and secondly stop expecting twenty plus dollars an hour for production line work. There is no way this country can continue economically when a factory worker or janitor is paid as much or more than a highly skilled worker. It has to stop. THAT my friends is what has destroyed the American economy... GREED.

Who the hell's asking for 20/hr You can't make rent and buy food where I live on less then 12/hr at least not for a family of 5 . Even then most employers give you the well I can only promise you 20 hours a week bull****. if you want the job though I'll need you for 24/7 and that's a good job Oh btw no benefits it's a tight economy don't you know. The job market sucks. When was a last time you looked for work.

Take away your social programs and crime will rise why because desperate people do stupid things.

There are no factories any more. they all moved to Mexico and China. Food comes from China, clothes come from China. I have been buying food made either the US or Canada on purpose recently I have found it hard to buy anything from in either place everything comes from China.

Your right about the greed it's the CEO's padding their wallets and cutting back on the workers the average CEO makes way more then they should don't believe me then tell me why in Europe is the difference between a CEO and the average wage owner in the company far less then the difference in the US. Why are people getting more loans then they can afford Greed. So they can buy a big house to impress their neighbours. Man nothing personal I can't wait till you find yourself o the government doll due to a job loss. Bad things happen to working people to BTW.

Oh yeah one other thing... WE ALREADY ARE AT WAR AND IT ISN'T HELPING!!!!!!!!!

No we need a WW 3 no more of these police actions we need everyone to come to the party. let's leave the nucs at home though and slaughter each other like civilized men.
Or we could just starve those who can't find work even if they've put 30 years to the grind stone and find themselves unemployed. Keep in mind social programs don't just help the druggies they also feed children of working people who are on hard times. Your right though **** em if they can find a job maybe their kids don't need to eat. Good way out of economic crisis kill of the workers of your nation. Great plan you should be president.

 

[test]

Who the hell's asking for 20/hr You can't make rent and buy food where I live on less then 12/hr at least not for a family of 5 . Even then most employers give you the well I can only promise you 20 hours a week bull****. if you want the job though I'll need you for 24/7 and that's a good job Oh btw no benefits it's a tight economy don't you know. The job market sucks. When was a last time you looked for work.

Take away your social programs and crime will rise why because desperate people do stupid things.

There are no factories any more. they all moved to Mexico and China. Food comes from China, clothes come from China. I have been buying food made either the US or Canada on purpose recently I have found it hard to buy anything from in either place everything comes from China.

Your right about the greed it's the CEO's padding their wallets and cutting back on the workers the average CEO makes way more then they should don't believe me then tell me why in Europe is the difference between a CEO and the average wage owner in the company far less then the difference in the US. Why are people getting more loans then they can afford Greed. So they can buy a big house to impress their neighbours. Man nothing personal I can't wait till you find yourself o the government doll due to a job loss. Bad things happen to working people to BTW.



No we need a WW 3 no more of these police actions we need everyone to come to the party. let's leave the nucs at home though and slaughter each other like civilized men.
Or we could just starve those who can't find work even if they've put 30 years to the grind stone and find themselves unemployed. Keep in mind social programs don't just help the druggies they also feed children of working people who are on hard times. Your right though **** em if they can find a job maybe their kids don't need to eat. Good way out of economic crisis kill of the workers of your nation. Great plan you should be president.

Compboy, you obviously havent lived through the hard times I have or you wouldn't be whining and yelling like you are. You seem to be doing OK for yourself, with a family of five, paying for internet access and a computer,,, all on the Canadian dollar that is worth less than the US dollar. Nobody said that CEOs werent greedy SOBs but if you knew anything about business you would know the law of percentages. The simple fact is every business works off percentages... stockholders get percentages, CEOs' bonuses are based on percentages and right on down the line everything is based on percentages of the gross. When employee wages rise to inflationary levels as they have in the United States ( since the mid to late sixties), they increase the over all cost levels of production and thus the products and services end up costing more. Very simple. Now is the hard part for most people to understand... Stockholder returns have stayed at the same percentage levels with the increase in return being based on the gross product of the company. That means if the employee wages have tripled in twenty years time so has the actual cash return on the stockholders investment EVEN THOUGH THE ACTUAL PERCENTAGE OF RETURN HAS NOT. You want to blame someone besides yourself for your financial woes? Blame your parents for not giving you a massive inheritance, or a better education than you have. Because the bottom line is that we all have it in ourselves to make our own situation better.
In 1964 Lyndon Johnson signed the Welfare Act that has paid 4 generations to not work. Prior to that Welfare meant government supplied food and rent. No money for booze and drugs, no cash for caddilacs and buicks. No free Televisions at the expense of the tax payers. History has proven time and time again, in Nation after Nation that the ONLY social programs that work are those that supply a fair days wage for a fair days work, and nothing more.

And now my friend a bit of math for you. The Median annual income in the United States is just over $40,000. Divide that out to 52 40 hour work weeks and you have $19.23 an hour. Now bear in mind that this is an average, so that means there are a LOT of people making much less. But for that figure to hold true there are a massive number of people making MUCH MUCH more. And since not everey American is a doctor or lawyer or CEO, who the hell do you think is making all the money????

Start using your head man!

 

[RECTIFIER]

There were alot of factory jobs...

...before it became the new norm to drive imports...everywhere I go in the country now,I see young people driving Toyotas & Hondas...even some truckers are buying Japanese trucks......!!What are you thinkin' people..??Buy a Ford or GMC or Chrysler,give some Americans a good job so they can raise a family and pay taxes without worry.
**Me,with Ford in garage and Dodge truck in driveway**

 

[Herd Sniper]

If this present problem persists for more than a week, wait and see what happens then...

Remember that when trouble comes at you it comes in a ripple effect, like waves on the ocean. One thing leads to another which leads to another and so on. So this week Wall Street collapses. Next week the Tokyo market collapses. A few days later the European markets collapse. Once all the major markets fold, then corporations start to collapse. Some will collapse very shortly after money from Wall Street evaporates. That means that companies that make things or build things won't have the temporary capital that they need to survive. That means that Caterpillar Tractor Company, Ford Motor Company, Shell Petroleum and so on will have to slow down and then stop their processes of making things. Without fuel, vehicles and tractors, we can't grow food nor take it to market. No food = food shortage. So it ends up being one problem developing into another which leads to another which leads to... So let's see how things go over the next 3 or 4 weeks. I would not be shocked to see our government have to bailout Wall Street then larger manufacturing companies and then local or state governments because of the ripple effect of lack of money being disrupted at various levels of flow. So, in about a month, depending on how things go, that's when the crime sprees will start to get bad and we survivalists may have to break into our supplies and bring out the guns to defend ourselves. It might be a little longer in some cases...

 

[Ragnarok]

...before it became the new norm to drive imports...everywhere I go in the country now,I see young people driving Toyotas & Hondas...even some truckers are buying Japanse trucks...!!What are you thinkin' people..??Buy a Ford or GMC or Chrylser,give some Americans a good job so they can raise a famliy and pay taxes without worry.
**Me,with Ford in garage and Dodge truck in driveway**

The American auto companies (management) have dug their own graves. People wanted long lasting, high quality vehicles with a great resale value. Chyrsler, Ford, and GM have failed to deliver. I've seen brand new F150's in the paper for 13.999 brand new, yet people will still pay double that for a new Tundra.

 

[TENNGRIZZ]

[Take away your social programs and crime will rise why because desperate people do stupid things.

Let them be stupid, thats why i have guns and lots of ammo we will cleanse the gene pool of dead weight and stupidity, i know the innocent as well has the guilty will perish. But there is no other choice i am afraid!

There are no factories any more. they all moved to Mexico and China. Food comes from China, clothes come from China. I have been buying food made either the US or Canada on purpose recently I have found it hard to buy anything from in either place everything comes from China.

Agreed:thumb:

Your right about the greed it's the CEO's padding their wallets and cutting back on the workers the average CEO makes way more then they should don't believe me then tell me why in Europe is the difference between a CEO and the average wage owner in the company far less then the difference in the US. Why are people getting more loans then they can afford Greed. So they can buy a big house to impress their neighbours. Man nothing personal I can't wait till you find yourself o the government doll due to a job loss. Bad things happen to working people to BTW.

That is why Americans will REBEL and borrow the guillotine from france!



No we need a WW 3 no more of these police actions we need everyone to come to the party. let's leave the nucs at home though and slaughter each other like civilized men.
AGREED!:thumb:


Or we could just starve those who can't find work even if they've put 30 years to the grind stone and find themselves unemployed. Keep in mind social programs don't just help the druggies they also feed children of working people who are on hard times. Your right though **** em if they can find a job maybe their kids don't need to eat. Good way out of economic crisis kill of the workers of your nation. Great plan you should be president.[/QUOTE]

No they can rise up against the crooks in dc and wall street and fill the streets with the blood of the greedy SOB'S who caused it!:thumb:

 

[RECTIFIER]

A perception issue only

The American auto companies (management) have dug their own graves. People wanted long lasting, high quality vehicles with a great resale value. Chyrsler, Ford, and GM have failed to deliver. I've seen brand new F150's in the paper for 13.999 brand new, yet people will still pay double that for a new Tundra.

Well sir,I would say drive a domestic vehicle and let the quality speak for itself...these U.S. made cars & trucks ain't the beaters from the seventies...my Dodge Dakota has lasted many Michigan winters,gets great mileage and has never broken down,My trusty Ford Crown Vic is almost eight years old,never broken down,I just returned from a fall color tour in Upper Michigan,I was getting almost 24MPG with this big sedan...plenty of interior room with decent stereo..but somehow people will bypass this car and stand in line to buy a Toyota for more $$....:upsidedown:

 

[84tecate]

The American auto companies (management) have dug their own graves. People wanted long lasting, high quality vehicles with a great resale value. Chyrsler, Ford, and GM have failed to deliver. I've seen brand new F150's in the paper for 13.999 brand new, yet people will still pay double that for a new Tundra.

Cant remeber anytime ive seen a 68' Toyota on the road can you.

I can say, my 68' ford is still around and working fine, my 75 ford half ton 4wd is going hard too. And my 75 ford 3/4 ton is still running like a bat out of hell. Dont call any new vechile well built or reliable until it has been around the block for 30+ years.

 

[test]

...before it became the new norm to drive imports...everywhere I go in the country now,I see young people driving Toyotas & Hondas...even some truckers are buying Japanese trucks......!!What are you thinkin' people..??Buy a Ford or GMC or Chrysler,give some Americans a good job so they can raise a family and pay taxes without worry.
**Me,with Ford in garage and Dodge truck in driveway**

Even though the American made vehicles are loaded with import parts I'm with you on this one... When GM announced the closing of the local Delphi plant the people who screamed the loudest were the employees who didnt even use their employee discounts to buy cars... they were the ones driving imports.

 

[test]

Well sir,I would say drive a domestic vehicle and let the quality speak for itself...these U.S. made cars & trucks ain't the beaters from the seventies...my Dodge Dakota has lasted many Michigan winters,gets great mileage and has never broken down,My trusty Ford Crown Vic is almost eight years old,never broken down,I just returned from a fall color tour in Upper Michigan,I was getting almost 24MPG with this big sedan...plenty of interior room with decent stereo..but somehow people will bypass this car and stand in line to buy a Toyota for more $$....:upsidedown:

I miss my 95 crown vic, got hit by a toyota four runner driven by a drunk doing 50. I had the laptop interface on the ccm in it and could dial it up to 30mpg on the highway, or I could dial it down to 9mpg and smoke the tires loose from 50 mph. Being a ham radio operator, with antennas all over the vic, people would always pull to the right lane when they saw me in their rearview:thumb: unfortunately if it was a two lane they would just slow down way below the speed limit

 

[compboy]

Compboy, you obviously havent lived through the hard times I have or you wouldn't be whining and yelling like you are. You seem to be doing OK for yourself, with a family of five, paying for internet access and a computer,,, all on the Canadian dollar that is worth less than the US dollar.

Nation after Nation that the ONLY social programs that work are those that supply a fair days wage for a fair days work, and nothing more.

And now my friend a bit of math for you. The Median annual income in the United States is just over $40,000. Divide that out to 52 40 hour work weeks and you have $19.23 an hour. Now bear in mind that this is an average, so that means there are a LOT of people making much less. But for that figure to hold true there are a massive number of people making MUCH MUCH more. And since not everey American is a doctor or lawyer or CEO, who the hell do you think is making all the money????

Start using your head man!

[/quote]
Actually we are doing fine on well less then the $40,000 you quoted course we have been putting off alot of stuff that will need to be done later in the medical expenses fortunatly it's just me so it doesn't matter. If it was the kids it would be different.
The value of the Canadian dollar is very close to yours right now the further the American dollar sinks the better ours looks.
Sure I'm doing okay now I was not always so lucky I have been down to eating one meal a day so my kids can eat, paying rent meant walking an hour to work because I couldn't afford bus. Getting in after a 12 hour shift taking a shower and walking right back out again for an eight hour shift and still not getting enough to pay rent. At one point I was holding down three jobs. Some weeks they where two fulls and a part time job then there was a slow down and all I'd get was my 20 hours a week. I kept the dish washing job because I was at least given one meal per shift some days that's what I got to eat why because the rent, food for the kids and keeping everyone clothed was taking my paychecks. I found a job out west paying less then the other two but I got 40 hours a week. I hated that job and I did it for six years. Since then I've been blessed and lucky. The reality is I did that at 19 till i was 21. Several times my boss at the dish washing job my boss gave me breakfast and lunch because he knew how much I was eating and how much I was working. A lot of times in the cities 1 full time at minimum wage won't even pay rent. Let alone pay anything else. Heres my math

40 Hours a week Cuz they won't pay over time
$8.50 Min/wage That's here
4.5 weeks a month
$1530 gross before taxes with taxes it is a negative
$1500 Rent for a three bedroom apartment here quick look in my area
of low income rental places that are infested with crack heads
and criminals. Your looking at $2000 minimum for a place I'd live
with my kids
$30 left over

No benefits are include with a lot of these jobs. You can't support a family on minimum wage the system current is broken. Period. I don't blame the people on welfare I blame the *******s on wall street and CEO's that have forgotten that profit isn't everything. Until we fix these issue we need social programs there is no fair days wage for a fairs day work any more your living in a dream land of lollipops and unicorns no one pays more then they have to for a worker and they cheat you at every turn they can. Course I'm bitter I don't believe my wife should have to work. Every job should pay your basic. I see guys having a three jobs just to make ends meet that's is crazy. Our economy is flawed both in the US and Canada. At this point we need those social programs after all that includes student loans. Beyond that if I end up on welfare because I can't find a job which is a possibility after all I know guys with a university degree that are looking for work and not finding it. I don't know here your living where I sit everything that is hiring is low wage and no full time. It may be different out west but it sure ain't here.

 

[boyscout]

Cant remeber anytime ive seen a 68' Toyota on the road can you.

I can say, my 68' ford is still around and working fine, my 75 ford half ton 4wd is going hard too. And my 75 ford 3/4 ton is still running like a bat out of hell. Dont call any new vechile well built or reliable until it has been around the block for 30+ years.

What is the ratio of Toyota's imported in '68 compared to how many Chevy's, Dodge's, and Ford's rolled off the assemble lines that same year? Might have a little to do with why you still see one and not the other. How many 1968 Chevy's, Dodge's, and Ford's haven't survived?

I've had my share of 30+ yr old vehicles. I own nothing but Toyota now. Both were built in the states with foreign & domestic parts, just like the '04 F150 (which was falling apart @ 40k) and '07 Silverado (in the shop at least 8 times in the first few months of it's life) for I had. Guess which ones held their value the most?

As far as the 30 yr comment, cars coming off the lines today won't be here in 30 years, but ones from the 60's will. It's all about how and what they build them with now vs. then. I know one thing, my imports have better reliability and fit & finish than my domestics did.

 

[wildjo]

...before it became the new norm to drive imports...everywhere I go in the country now,I see young people driving Toyotas & Hondas...even some truckers are buying Japanese trucks......!!What are you thinkin' people..??Buy a Ford or GMC or Chrysler,give some Americans a good job so they can raise a family and pay taxes without worry.
**Me,with Ford in garage and Dodge truck in driveway**

Is that because the Ford needs more protection from the elements?

 

[84tecate]

What is the ratio of Toyota's imported in '68 compared to how many Chevy's, Dodge's, and Ford's rolled off the assemble lines that same year? Might have a little to do with why you still see one and not the other. How many 1968 Chevy's, Dodge's, and Ford's haven't survived?

I've had my share of 30+ yr old vehicles. I own nothing but Toyota now. Both were built in the states with foreign & domestic parts, just like the '04 F150 (which was falling apart @ 40k) and '07 Silverado (in the shop at least 8 times in the first few months of it's life) for I had. Guess which ones held their value the most?

As far as the 30 yr comment, cars coming off the lines today won't be here in 30 years, but ones from the 60's will. It's all about how and what they build them with now vs. then. I know one thing, my imports have better reliability and fit & finish than my domestics did.

Point well taken :thumb: