Do the math. Watts= Volts X Amps
1000 watts for 1 hour usage = 1 kwh

Batteries are rated in amp-hr which is the total amperage you can draw in a 20 hour period. Thus a 100amp-hr battery can supply 5 amps for 20 hours before being discharged. that is 60 watts per hour for 20 hours. If you draw at a higher rate than 60 watts than the total power you can get out drops to less than 100amp-hr due to chemical action.

So look up each thing you want to power and than you will know if you can do so with the system you build.

 

To consume 230kwh/month [or 7.7kwh/day] using Photo-Voltaic panels, you would need roughly 3,400watts of panels.

3,400watts of panels, producing power for 4.5 hours/day would give you around 15,300watts/day.

Then to push that into a battery-bank and back out again, the losses will reduce your wattage by nearly half, to 7,650watts/day.

 

I've lived off grid for 20 years now.

Fridge -- I really like our Servel propane fridge. It uses approximately a 5 gallon bottle of propane every 3 weeks. I bought one from Lehman's and one used from a neighbor for $500. I use the second one in the summer if I am expecting a lot of company.

Light -- LED are a God send. Pick 'em up cheap at Costco. Use hardly any power.

Freezer -- Decided to go with a regular electric freezer from Sears. The freezer itself only cost a couple of hundred dollars but the upgrade to my solar power system was $2,000. Totally worth it IMHO. It's nice to have.

Stove and oven -- Propane. Make sure to get one that doesn't need electricity. No clocks, timers or glow bars.

Hot Water Heater -- Aquastar on demand. Love it. No pilot light. It uses a piezoelectric spark. Only need to replace the D battery once every 4-5 years.

Water pump -- Sureflo 12 volt. Runs directly off the batteries. Our water comes from a buried rain water cistern so it only has to draw up 12 feet.

Front loader washer -- normal one from Home Depot.

We also have a computer, internet, watch a few movies, use a toaster, charge a couple of Kindles, have an answering machine, and run a couple of 12 volt fans for our two composting toilets.

We have about 1,000 watts in panels, 8 forklift batteries (Trojan), Outback inverter and charge controller. We run 2 Honda 2,000 watt generators in tandem as backup or when we are working in the wood shop.

 

...Do microwave s draw to much juice for off grid living

A typical microwave oven uses around 1,200 watts, which is 10 amps. Of course bigger ones use more. When I moved off grid I found I couldn't run my big one from the other house even with a generator with 14 amp circuit breakers. It was on a long extension cord, which increases amp draw and that didn't help things.

Where it will affect your setup is the type and size of your inverter. Say you have one that uses 1,200 watts or 10 amps @ 120V AC. Your inverter will need to be sized large enough (in watts) to run the microwave plus any other items you are using at that time, plus some extra for cushion.

Also keep in mind that the microwave will be drawing 100 amps out of a 12 volt battery bank while it is running:

(1200 watts / 12 volts = 100 amps)

Which is a LOT of amps. So you may need to use a 24 volt battery bank and a 24 volt inverter to cut your amp draw to 50 amps:

(1200 watts / 24 volts = 50 amps)

Which is still a lot. And 24 volt inverters cost more than 12 volt inverters. Personally I would run the genny to run the microwave oven. It would save some money.

Best thing to do is get a Kill-A-Watt meter now and use it to see how much your appliances draw.

Don't even consider using an electric range, water heater, or dryer, unless you have tons of money to spend on solar panels and batteries. Most off gridders use propane for those items.

 

I will be back off grid at the end of the month in my airstream (finally)

I have (2) deep cycle batteries and 300W of solar.

I cannot run the microwave unless I run a generator, (I have a pair of Honda EU2000i's which get ~6.7 hours/gal)
Which I typically fire up perhaps a max of 1x/month to do a few things.

My fridge/freezer switches to propane when I'm off grid, and uses ~ 30 pounds in 10 days.

My lights I've converted to LED's and burn basically nothing.

I park it in a place where I get a nice breeze all spring summer so there's just a couple days I need AC. (those days I go swimming and if I choose burn a Gal of gas a night,)

I watch movies on my laptop.

When I finish my building. (I'm delaying it for rental property) I plan on 7KW of solar.
I don't know what I'll do with so much, and could no doubt get by with much less quite easily.

Choose how you want to live, pay accordingly.

 

I
My fridge/freezer switches to propane when I'm off grid, and uses ~ 30 pounds in 10 days.

Is that correct? type-o?

I've done the numbers in the past, I always found $1200 solar fridge(steca, sundanzer) or regular fridge and extra panels/batteries to be much cheaper than propane in the 'long run'. A few years...

I don't find small microwaves too bad, so long as your batteries can take the cranking amps. 600-700 Watt microwave takes about 900-1000 watts; but as long as your not trying to cook a chicken or anything, a few minutes here or there is pretty low power consumption.. Say 3.5 minutes for popcorn. 1000 Watts for 3.5 minutes is 0.058KWh. (60 / 3.5 = 17.143, 1000Wh / 17.143)
equivalent to about 2 sunhours on a 30 Watt panel(12 minutes on 300 watt panel).

Just some rough numbers, don't take to 'bank' without verifying; panel/inverter/etc inefficiencies and all.

I use about twice as much as that for frozen dinners/pies. Interestingly enough, I found it takes less power to use a conventional 120v stove burner to heat a cup of soup/water than the microwave(it's all the inverter losses in the microwave itself). DC burner would be 20-30% more efficient again bypassing the AC inverter.

 

It's written correctly.

Fridge/freezer in the Airstream, heat of the summer, I use a 30 pound canister (technically I know they don't fill them above 80%, so not quite...)


Lasts about 10 days.


No use wasting your money on an overpriced freezer, just buy a very energy efficient chest freezer and run it off of solar.
A buddy's done it, and I will do it when my building's finished.
No room in 224 sqft.

 

When I was living alone in my camper a 30lb propane bottle lasted me a month with my Dometic fridge/freezer in summer. And that's while I was also using the propane for cooking. Just different fridges, I guess?

But, I agree about buying an efficient AC freezer (or fridge) and that it will be cheaper in the long run. I keep mine on the north patio, what I call my outdoor kitchen, out of the sun, year round. The advantage in the winter is obvious.

 

Most off gridders use propane for those items.

Just how off-grid is propane really though?
Although there isn't a direct connection, you are still reliant on grid systems for your supply.
I appreciate the capital investment consideration but presumably you are very much at the mercy of availability of supply and pricing fluctuations?
The disconnect or mobility is significantly more off-grid than conventional utilities supply, but I can't help but feel it is still something of a compromise.

Naturally, everything is of course a compromise! Everyone has their own reasons and ideals, but I can't help but think that having an essential reliance on the fuel industry betrays some of the self-sufficiency and sustainability considerations of some avenues of the off-grid movement.
In the context of this forum, there is also the curious consideration of what you would do should gas become unavailable at all, or at least very scarce, or if you choose to isolate yourself from society etc

I'm a hypocrite anyway, sat here with my mains gas and electric...
(I'm certainly not trying to put down your lifestyle or specifics of how you go about it,
What works for you, works for you - just a curiosity on my part)

-------------------------

As for the OP, the above may or may not be relevant as we don't yet know your intentions or purposes.
There are many variations on the understanding of what is or isn't off-grid.
Are you moving into an RV/Trailer/Van to enjoy mobility, a lower cost of living and a minimalist lifestyle?
Are you moving to a remote homestead on 10acres?
Each could be described as an off-grid lifestyle but are vastly different in intent and execution.

(Whatever you are doing, best of luck!)

If intending the former, then propane is indeed an excellent choice.
For the latter, then propane may not be your choice, you may not even be able to haul it up the hill to your cabin.

 

Just how off-grid is propane really though?
Although there isn't a direct connection, you are still reliant on grid systems for your supply....

Cooking is one of those things that's hard to do without some kind of fuel.

It can be done with wood, and I plan to have a wood cook stove and wood oven in the outdoor kitchen in case I can't get propane. In the winter when the indoor wood stove is going I sometimes set a pot on it and it heats up to boiling. When I lived in the camper over the winter I had a cook stove and I cooked with it every day. Of course I had to get firewood with the chain saw, and I had to put gas in the saw. Definitely off the grid, but still reliant on it.

This summer I'd really like to try out a solar hot water system.

 

Thanks to ID Homesteader.
The first thing to do when contemplating going off grid is to forget about anything with resistance coils in like a clothes dryer, microwave, coffee maker, hair curlers, etc. Forget about conventional AC. Then you have a chance.

 

I use to consider cooking with solar electric wasteful; and it can be. Although like many things if you use the right method and change your habits, it can work quite well.
Microwaves to reheat, Digital PRessure cookers, and even hotplates... My cheap digital pressure cooker can do 2hr+ long 1.6-2.5lb corn beef between 0.3-0.5 KWh; Considering that can be a day or two's main meal, 1 250 watt panel can generate that in poor sun area. or 100watt panel in a sun prone region.

All the money and time people put into thermal solar cookers seems like a waste when a tiny battery and moderate solar panel could do the same for less(and any 'time' you want to cook).

 

Relax man. I was just expounding/adding to the discussion.
Direct, not ****y! :thumb:

(and I didn't quote it BECAUSE I could tell it wasn't directed at me!) :thumb:

As for wood:
Look up coppicing, I'm using my chain saw to cut down standing dead wood still, but the eventual plan is to take down smaller trees which will be easier without powered saws (although a couple years worth of stacked wood adds to your sustainability/ cuts down on the sense of urgency.)

Cool, my northern monkey upbringing often offends you delicate yanks, especially during the lost in translation that is forum talk

I've worked coppiced woodland before (former tree surgeon before my bike accident... I'm fit again now, but not being able to walk properly for 2 years required a change of career!) great stuff for burning and it's incredible just how quick you get purposeful crop.

I guess coppiced woodland may be more plentiful over here because our land constriction, is it not common in the US?

Pollarding can also reap massive yield for firewood as it.is generally ideal girth and.is good for the tree every so often.

 

Using propane, a generator and solar panels doesn't make a person self sufficient.

But what it does enable you to do is buy very reasonably prices remote land -and- keep a basic standard of living.

Years ago, you could buy some cheap land but you would be giving up a lot of conveniences. Now I can have the best of both world. I get to CHOOSE how 'primitive' I want to live.

Before I made the move to my back to the land homestead, I made a list of modern conveniences and ranked them. Everything above caveman living is a luxury in my book. But I have to admit that somethings sure make life worth living.

Top three items on my luxury list

1) Truck. Where I live a horse and buggy isn't practical.
2) Chainsaw. Saves a ton of time compared to a crosscut saw.
3) Lights. Propane, kerosene or electric.

 

Top three items on my luxury list

1) Truck. Where I live a horse and buggy isn't practical.
2) Chainsaw. Saves a ton of time compared to a crosscut saw.
3) Lights. Propane, kerosene or electric.

My wife's list required that we have indoor running water.

 

I am in the beginning stages of planning and building a solar-electric system for my new off-grid house. My full-blown solar-electric system probably won't be up and running for at least two years. Other folks here know more about the technicalities than I do.

However, I want to tell you something important about light bulbs.

If you are planning to use 120-volt AC power for your lighting (as opposed to 12-volt DC power), consider using Osram 8.5-watt LED light bulbs throughout the house. They look almost exactly like 60-watt incandescent light bulbs, and the light they emit is a soft, yellowish light that looks exactly like the light emitted by 60-watt incandescent light bulbs - but each Osram LED bulb uses only 8.5 watts per hour as opposed to 60 watts per hour for a 60-watt incandescent bulb. This means you can have nice, bright lighting throughout the house without using a lot of electricity - you won't need to settle for dim lighting just because you are off the grid. Another advantage you'll enjoy if you use the Osram LED bulbs is that you'll be able to choose from a vast array of lamps and light fixtures, because the Osram bulbs work with lamps and fixtures designed for incandescent bults. That is: they screw into sockets designed for incandescent bulbs, and their size and shape is similar to that of incandescent bulbs.

The Osram LED bulbs come in versions that are dimmer than the ones I have and versions that are brighter than the ones I have, but I've standardized on the 8.5-watt ones because they seem bright enough for just about any lamp or light fixture I'll have in the house, yet not too bright.

I bought my Osram LED bulbs at Lowe's for $4.98 apiece. Yes, they are expensive, but each bulb will last 22 years, according to the specs printed on the package.

 

...I bought my Osram LED bulbs at Lowe's for $4.98 apiece. Yes, they are expensive, but each bulb will last 22 years, according to the specs printed on the package.

Yes, the LED lights are a no-brainer. That's all I use for my 120 volt lights. And $4.98 is actually a decent price for a 8 watt bulb.

BTW, not to nit-pick, but watts is continuous, not watts-per-hour: there is no such thing. If you use an 8 watt bulb for an hour, you have used 8 watt-hours. A 60 watt bulb for an hour would be 60 watt-hours. Etc.

Watts is simply volts times amps. Your 8 watt bulb draws .067 amps while its running, which at 120 volts, is 8 watts. A 60 watt bulb would draw .5 amps.

Battery bank capacity can be measured in watt-hours or amp-hours. A 100 amp-hour battery bank at 12 volts is 1200 watt-hours of stored electricity. So you can run that bulb for 150 hours (but you shouldn't drain your battery bank past 50%, so it would be more like 75 hours). See how it works? I'm trying to help you understand it so that when you get your system you'll know what you're getting.

We just received the 'Electrical Panel' for our Off-Grid power system.

It is a 'Four Star Solar Power Center' from http://www.wholesalesolar.com

It has a 'MIdnite Solar Classic' Charge Controller #150, [MPPT-type, 150VDC, 83A@48V] that even has a mode melt snow off the Solar-Panels

And a 'Magnum Energy' Inverter, [120/240volt, 4400watt, pure sinewave inverter]

3 more lightening arresters, and all sorts of neat features.

I can plug both components into my PC [or home network] they have a lot of adjustable internal set-points

It may take me a while to get this all wired. It has been a long wait as we have been saving money for this component. It is nice to finally have it here.

Sweet! That is the charge controller I want, too. But how on earth does it melt snow off the panels? Send a current out there?

The network interface is awesome. I assume you can log trends and whatnot?

You got a 48V system?

Please post a how-to thread, posting pictures of how you installed it all.

 

We just received the 'Electrical Panel' for our Off-Grid power system.

It is a 'Four Star Solar Power Center' from http://www.wholesalesolar.com

It has a 'MIdnite Solar Classic' Charge Controller #150, [MPPT-type, 150VDC, 83A@48V] that even has a mode melt snow off the Solar-Panels

And a 'Magnum Energy' Inverter, [120/240volt, 4400watt, pure sinewave inverter]

3 more lightening arresters, and all sorts of neat features.

I can plug both components into my PC [or home network] they have a lot of adjustable internal set-points

It may take me a while to get this all wired. It has been a long wait as we have been saving money for this component. It is nice to finally have it here.

 

We just received the 'Electrical Panel' for our Off-Grid power system.

...

It has been a long wait as we have been saving money for this component. It is nice to finally have it here.

ForestBeekeeper, congratulations on your purchase! I know it must feel really great to have reached this milestone.

I am about two years behind you!

 

I am going to be moving off grid this sping How big of a battery bank and charging system do I need. my power bill says I use about 230kwh a month I only want power for a few modern conveniences.. Freezer, refrigerator, lights etc. Maybe TV

If there is a stream running though your property?
It is well worth the time to investigate low head micro-hydro systems.
You don't need to be a wizard to install one either, once you understand how they work.

 

12V inverters are quite a bit cheaper also, if you don't go after the big names or need grid-tied. I've bought a few "Canadian Tire" brand Eliminator models that are usually made by Xantrex with good/exchange warranties(tho never had to use them).
$150 for 1000W Pure Sine Wave(1500W surge). Having a 'little bit' of 110V AC is handy for cheap appliances, and you can use inexpensive breaker boxes etc.
I wired my place for both Low Wattage DC and 110V AC throughout. Using 6-20R plugs for 12V so no 12V appliance can be accidentally plugged into 110V socket(or vice versa).

http://www.westsidewholesale.com/leviton-5822-i.html

Problem with 12VDC is you need pretty husky wire to avoid voltage drops at various current over a relatively short distance.

 

Thank you to those who provided clarification re. the term "watt hours." Thinking of "horsepower" as an analogy to "watt hours" helps to clarify things in my mind.

I also want to mention that I woke up this morning realizing my example of the "average KWH per day" (average kilowatt hours per day) info printed on my electric bill actually supports what sarco2000 said yesterday and does not support the point of view I presented yesterday, because the term KWH encompasses not only a measure of the number of watts (1000) but also a measure of a period of time (an hour) - and then the "per day" specifies a period of time also (one day). In other words, what I am trying to say is that, using the logic I presented in yesterday's post, the terminology used on my electric bill would be "KW per day," not "KWH per day." I had a long day yesterday, and I guess my brain was a bit addled last night!

As I've said, I am a novice when it comes to electrical theory.

Thanks again for the explanations. Hopefully this discussion will enlighten other folks who are struggling to understand the meaning of the term "watt hours."

 

I did the test with a Kill-A-Watt meter. I had an 8.5-watt Osram LED bulb plugged into a lamp for 12.5 hours, and it used .10 KWH, according to the Kill-A-Watt's display. If I understand the math, it seems like the bulb used about twice as much electricity as it is supposed to. (I'm not sure I do understand the math, though.)

Can somebody tell me if I am correct?

Thanks.

 

I did the test with a Kill-A-Watt meter. I had an 8.5-watt Osram LED bulb plugged into a lamp for 12.5 hours, and it used .10 KWH, according to the Kill-A-Watt's display.

8.5 watts X 12.5 hr = 106 watt-hr
divide by 1000 to get kilowatts from watt

so, you should see 0.11 KWH and measured 0.10 KWH, not bad.

 

Here is all the data:

Volt: hovers between 123.5 and 123.7
Amp: .07
Watt: 8.4
VA: 9.1
Hz: hovers between 59.9 and 60.0
PF: .92
KWH: .10
Hour: 12:35

 

thanyou for this information

 

Steam power?

Has anyone else thought on this topic? Haven't read all this thread,so I'm sorry If I missed it but if you are on a permanent homestead seams like if you had access to cheap wood or coal it might be a possibility to fire a boiler to run something to generate enough electric current to run every thing.I know out side wood boilers are expensive but they last a long time. In the wintertime it would be great all the heat you need? ?

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I would love to use steam power. But have you priced a steam-powered-anything lately? I don't have the experience or materials to build one. And plus, I'd have to cut a lot more firewood, too, and I already am very lax on that front. Steam power is one of those things that sounds really awesome, until you are actually planning on using it for powering everything or living a semi-normal life. But yup, it would be really cool to have.

Since this thread started, I have got my solar charge controller, which in fact is the same one FBK got (Midnite Solar Classic - it's awesome). I also got the rest of the 48V system, about $14k worth including panels, batteries, and inverter.

I never did get a solar hot water system going over the summer, but I did score a brand new Bosch propane tankless hot water heater (with pilot light) at a "used" price on craigslist. We also got a new efficient electric fridge and dishwasher and a propane range. We also got a 500 gallon propane tank delivered in Sep 2015, with about 400 gallons of propane. I installed all the house propane pipes myself, with black iron pipe and gas-rated pipe dope. Presently the tank sits at 60% capacity. Enough to last me until spring when propane prices drop. But it's good to know that a full tank will last me for a year and a half. Even with 2-3 people living in the cabin. If we were under stress it could last a lot longer - the kids take really long hot showers.

I also built a solar powered clothes dryer over the 2015 summer. Some of you may refer to the design as a "clothes line". LOL

I still only have one third of my panels set up, but even that is enough to power everything all day if we take it easy. If not, I can run the genny for an hour or two to charge up the battery bank. I still use the small genny to run the well pump to fill up the water tank. :

.

.

 

Steam power

Did you check out northern tool company,for steam powered motors?.

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No, why? Have they come down in price enough that ordinary people can use them for practical purposes? A brief look on the web site by searching "steam" brings up nothing but steam cleaners.

If you have a link to a place with an affordable steam engine, I'd check it out.

.

 

You need to cut your electric use to the bone,big kilowatt use=big$ for a solar system.we spent less than $1000 on our system,we have super efficient lights,refrigerator,waterpump,and TV etc..IWe run a generator briefly for energy hog items . We only have two 200 watt panels and run everything direct 12v. It works for us

 

I'm thinking off grid means get rid of microwave....
( and electric stove, clothes dryer, hot water heater and so on). The only thing we use electric for right now ( and we are just trying to get around to putting in solar, just moved here a few months ago) it my 2 freezers (one turned into a fridge) , computers and a few electric outlets to run small stuff. But we do have a generator for backup. The way to go (im0) is renewable energy like solar and wood. We use wood for heating, cooking and hot water. We use ( right now) propane for cooking when I just need a stove top or heat a small amount of water. In the future we plan on having solar for the freezers and the computers ( plus livestock electric fence) . If you really want to be off grid, you should not have to depend on propane, or need a microwave, but good luck!

 

Cooking only with wood is pretty hard core. I do cook with wood sometimes in the winter, when the wood stove is going. I plan on having a wood cookstove on the back deck (the outdoor kitchen) but only for SHTF situations. Propane is so much easier. And if you fill up in the summer, prices are cheaper. To me, it's worth the price to pay for the convenience. And when my tank is full, that is 1-1/2 years worth of propane, which does great things for peace of mind.

You don't necessarily have to get rid of things like a microwave. Personally, I haven't had one since I went off grid and I don't miss it. But I do have an electric dishwasher! It's a regular dishwasher, but the most efficient one we could find.

There are a few types of grids that we can remove ourselves from but mostly people mean the electrical/phone/water grid when they say "off grid". I've been off grid for the last 3 years, but I don't live primitively at all.

.

 

No, you tube

12 horse gas motor converted to run on steam.

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Can you share any additional details on this please?

 

I'm slowly trying to learn about solar because eventually I intend to try to be off grid with solar. Right now all I can do is read and try to learn. It's getting a little easier to understand thankfully.

When I drove truck I had a 2500 watt inverter installed so I could run an electric skillet, 2 electric coolers plus tv and microwave. That way I didn't have to eat in truck stop restaurants. The old goat had 1 to for his truck. We still have those.

Didn't have too many problems but every once in a while, like during the hot southern summers, if I was running the APU (Auxillary Power Unit), That's where you can turn the truck off and run, lights, tv, and either the heater or air conditioner. Kind of like a house central heat and air. Loved that thing, there were times that I couldn't run the Microwave at the same time and would have to turn the truck back on and idle while I had that or the electric skillet going because the batteries couldn't handle the load. For the life of me I can't remember what type of batteries but there were 4 of them. Big, heavy things.

Anyway, love these solar threads and learning a lot.

 

It is good to stay versatile.