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Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12
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Discussion Starter #1
The title was inspired by my wife and this post from arleigh. (He uses the term academics; my wife uses the term religion).

Jesus did not emphasize academics in his ministry, He emphasized the relationship.
And there is no relationship if all one has is academics.
All these denominational squabbles seem to come down to that. "Your doctrine is not right." Is responded with, "No, you are the heretic." Another says I belong to the true church. Still, another says, no, my church is the true church. That's academic. That's religion. Jesus did not emphasize these things.

The minister said in today's sermon about a valuable piece of jewelry that a child broke that the jewelry was important to her but not as important as the relationship they had. She talks about helping to get the most people you can to heaven. I doubt telling people their doctrine, their religion is their academics is wrong achieves that to much affect.
 

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Layman
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The title was inspired by my wife and this post from arleigh. (He uses the term academics; my wife uses the term religion).



All these denominational squabbles seem to come down to that. "Your doctrine is not right." Is responded with, "No, you are the heretic." Another says I belong to the true church. Still, another says, no, my church is the true church. That's academic. That's religion. Jesus did not emphasize these things.
And all of the squabbles are spawned from Sola Scriptura and the idea that one can interpret the bible correctly for themselves.

Everything was fine and dandy when we were all Catholics :thumb:
 

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Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12
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Discussion Starter #3
Is this before or after the Great Schism or before or after the false teachers that caused Peter and John to write their epistles?
 

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Layman
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Is this before or after the Great Schism or before or after the false teachers that caused Peter and John to write their epistles?
Before and after the great schism i would say that the average lay Catholic would not need to engage in theological debates, due to the fact that the two Churches (East and West) were separate by Language and Geographical location.

as for the false teachers Peter and John wrote about. They came to there senses and threw in the towel.... Or they just simply died....
 

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I would have to submit that before I desire a personal relationship with someone, much would depend on who that someone is. That requires some clear language that answers that question and those answers would be doctrine/teaching.

I would also submit that Jesus was primarily interested in completing His mission to bring about the salvation of fallen, sinful humanity. It is the completion of that mission that enables the establishment of any relationship between Him and those who believe in Him. In other words, it takes doctrine/teaching to comprehend Him and His mission and this makes a relationship possible.

Doctrine is not a dirty word. It is what should unify Christ’s Church, but false doctrine has divided it. Satan couldn’t ask for more than the current state of division in His earthly Church. Yes...division. Again, God does not deal in multiple choice truth.
 

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Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12
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Discussion Starter #7
If Jesus is about Relationship what is God about?

I suggest Religion.
No. They are the same, right? Your answer is not very trinitarian of you. :D:

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me. Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do.
John 14:10-11 (NLT)

And you have to ask yourself why in the world did God make everything through his son? R-E-L-A-T-I-O-N-A-L

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:3
 

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Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12
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Discussion Starter #8
In other words, it takes doctrine/teaching to comprehend Him and His mission and this makes a relationship possible.
This approach works with no one. I think you have it backwards. 1st, you have a relationship with someone, then you get to know them, comprehend them over time.

Example. My neighbor is geographically related to me. Over time I get to know him, to comprehend him.

Doctrine is not a dirty word.
In theory, that may be true. In practice, doctrine is the dirtiest of words, the source of division.

Again, beyond the greatest commandment of simply loving God and others, we will have to agree to disagree. What does Titus 3:9 mean to you?


I have come to turn men against their fathers, daughters against their mothers, and daughters-in-law against their mothers-in-law.
Matthew 10:35 The Voice (VOICE)
 

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Peter,

Yes, I had a relationship with Jesus prior to knowing any doctrine about Him. I was a condemned, hell-bent child of Satan. That was my relationship with the Lord prior to my baptism. That kind of relationship doesn't do me much good.

It took the Scriptures to teach me that God has chosen to be merciful to sinful men like me and sent His Son to die for me and my sins. BTW that one sentence is FULL of doctrine. As I said previously, true doctrine is a blessing. It is false doctrine that divides His Church.
 

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Bugged out already
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Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 1:2

We are all one in Christ, and you are brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of the various tribes we may belong to.
 

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Registered
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This is just one of those catchy marketing gimmicks that came out of the Evangelical movement in the US in the 1960s as a transactional Christianity that you can fit into the rest of your secular life became popular.

Religion is defined as “ a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.”

Christianity is a religion. Jesus founded it.
 

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Jesus is about ones relationship with the Father,
If you love God, the rest falls together naturally, loving as He instructs, and whom He directs.
Jesus provided the Holy Spirit to teach in His place. Placing one's academics over this relationship alienates one from God.
 

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Jesus is about ones relationship with the Father,
If you love God, the rest falls together naturally, loving as He instructs, and whom He directs.
Jesus provided the Holy Spirit to teach in His place. Placing one's academics over this relationship alienates one from God.
You are mistakenly saying that doctrine is at odds with the one who revealed the doctrine. Doctrines (if they are drawn from Holy Scripture instead of the ideas of men, are from God Himself and are part and parcel of any relationship that His people have with Him.

One cannot separate truth from the relationship with Him who is truth.
 

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Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12
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Discussion Starter #15
This is just one of those catchy marketing gimmicks that came out of the Evangelical movement in the US in the 1960s
Do you have a link to that?

Even if true, it doesn’t mean saying something in a new way is wrong.
 

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Very true, it is about a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact just as Jesus called his Disciples friends in John 15:14 and 15, in verse 13 Jesus says Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Jesus laid down His life for everyone in the entire world, past, present and Future. All they have to do is believe He is the Christ, that he died on the Cross for their own sins, was buried and resurrected. Then they becomes friends. This is a relationship.

Scripture then commands Christians in 2Pe 3:18* to ...
grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever.
Growing in grace and knowledge means learning about Him. How do you do that. By reading and studying the Bible and hearing good exhortation from the Bible. This entails studying doctrine.

Doctrine is what a person believes. God has put His doctrine in the Bible. To believe correctly about Jesus Christ, one must learn the doctrine about Him.
2Jn1:9* Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10* If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
Scripture seems to indicate if someone teaches the wrong doctrine of Christ, Christians are to have nothing to do with them, certainly not be friends with them.
Paul told us in Timothy that all Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable.
2Ti 3:16* All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
For doctrine – what is right belief,
For reproof - conviction of wrongdoing
For correction – how to correct wrong doing
For instruction in righteousness – education or training in the right way God wants Christians to be.

The relationship to Jesus Christ is most important for without that there is no salvation. However, correct doctrine is also important for without that their would be no growing in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ

Some additional Scripture on the importance of doctrine.
Rom 16:17* Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
(Be careful of others with different doctrine)
Eph 4:14* That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(Be well grounded in Scripture so you will not be deceived by others)
 

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Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12
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Discussion Starter #18
Very true, it is about a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture then commands Christians in 2Pe 3:18* to ... grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever.
Great post! I had not thought about this before. 2Pe 3:18 implies NO glory to the 'true church.'

It is not possible for me to talk to those at church about anything really. I "talk" to people on line about religion and doctrine far more than those in my brick and mortar 'church.' Opportunity.
 

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Goat Roper
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Very true, it is about a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact just as Jesus called his Disciples friends in John 15:14 and 15, in verse 13 Jesus says Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Jesus laid down His life for everyone in the entire world, past, present and Future. All they have to do is believe He is the Christ, that he died on the Cross for their own sins, was buried and resurrected. Then they becomes friends. This is a relationship.

Scripture then commands Christians in 2Pe 3:18* to ...

Growing in grace and knowledge means learning about Him. How do you do that. By reading and studying the Bible and hearing good exhortation from the Bible. This entails studying doctrine.

Doctrine is what a person believes. God has put His doctrine in the Bible. To believe correctly about Jesus Christ, one must learn the doctrine about Him.

Scripture seems to indicate if someone teaches the wrong doctrine of Christ, Christians are to have nothing to do with them, certainly not be friends with them.
Paul told us in Timothy that all Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable.

For doctrine – what is right belief,
For reproof - conviction of wrongdoing
For correction – how to correct wrong doing
For instruction in righteousness – education or training in the right way God wants Christians to be.

The relationship to Jesus Christ is most important for without that there is no salvation. However, correct doctrine is also important for without that their would be no growing in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ

Some additional Scripture on the importance of doctrine.
(Be careful of others with different doctrine)
(Be well grounded in Scripture so you will not be deceived by others)

First of all, our RELATIONSHIP with Jesus is the ONLY thing important. Jesus told folks that claimed to know Him "Depart from Me, I NEVER knew you". (Matthew 7:21-23) The question we should ask is "Does Jesus know You?" I get tickled at the story where some guys go out to preach, witness, and exorcise: Acts 19:11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”
16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

They got whooped because they didnt really have the Spirit of God, and many today are in the same boat, some sitting on church pews. Does Jesus know you?
Then, I am reminded of David, who said in
Psalm 119:11 "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." It is important to KNOW the WORD, not religion, commentary, or doctrine. :upsidedown:
 

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High Concept
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Great post! I had not thought about this before. 2Pe 3:18 implies NO glory to the 'true church.'

It is not possible for me to talk to those at church about anything really. I "talk" to people on line about religion and doctrine far more than those in my brick and mortar 'church.' Opportunity.

And yet we read in scripture of a religion with right doctrine being taught and enforced by Apostles bishops priests and deacons.

In their minds there was a true church. There was no space to explore one’s own doctrines with theological meanderings.

People are accustomed to theological meanderings today as if they were normal, but the Church we read of in scripture did not tolerate it, in fact it was hard as nails.

We see Paul travel to and send letters of correction and encouragement to various churches to maintain the same doctrine.
 
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