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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
While this is certainly going to be a touchy subject, none the less its still very relevant.

The current state of the dollar is all but dead, the signs of our currency going solvent is inevitable now! What about our troops in the many countries some fighting and dying?

We are still fighting in Iraq/Afghanistan is the US dollar goes solvent wouldnt this also mean that Bin Laden will have won the war? by bankrupting this country which was his intent all along. I mean the attack on the WTC was a political statement about our world trading and economy.

They were able to win the last war with Russia by draining them of money in a never ending war, and eventually they had to leave which also means the Afghan's won that war.

I'm just making an observation, am I missing something?

Has anyone even thought about this yet?
 

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SNAFU
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I wouldnt say we "lost", we crushed Sadaam in Iraq and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, but now we are playing national repair man in a part of the world that hates our guts.

We have lost the war for "hearts and minds", thats for sure.
We would have never won the war for "hearts and minds." Alexander the Great knew that when you conquered a territory, you had to either put in a puppet regime with enough power to crush insurrection or to leave in the current ruler with a tight leash. This is not possible for America because of our free and open society. We cannot be brutal and we cannot control another country's leader without our media lambasting our intelligence community for it. War will not "work" for America until the mainstream media stops playing the sensationalist and ratings game and starts being patriotic again.
 

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Practical Tactical
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It seems to me that we have lost this war, I think it was because we didn't know what the objectives of our enemies were. I know that the war wasn't the cause of the economic collapse but it sure didn't help.
It seems that being drawn into several countries where we first have to fight insurgencies and then spend tons of money to rebuild and police these places is a definite economic blow to the united states.
Plus it gets us further entangled in the local mid-east politics, leading to more opportunities that another country with engage our forces. Could go on but i have to run
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
For all the money we spent in the middle east we could have given everyone health care and fixed every single road in this country. Not saying we should have done that just trying to gauge the amount of money we have wasted over there.

30 million an hour for 10 years.....its just mind boggling. With no end in sight!!!
 

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The short answer to your question, in my opinion, is that the moment we entered the war, we lost the war.

A state should not interfere in the internal politics of another state, based upon the principles of state sovereignty and self-determination.

Historical examples of supporters of non-interventionism are George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, who both favored nonintervention in European Wars while maintaining free trade.

The problem is that our "leaders" from both sides of the political spectrum forgot that we should avoid alliances with other nations, but still retain diplomacy, and avoid all wars not related to direct territorial self-defense.

Instead, under both democrat and republican "leadership", we have stuck our nose into everybody's' business; tried to buy friendship through "foreign aid"; indulged in Nation Building; and generally thought of ourselves as the world's policeman.

It's probably too late, but the best course of action, in my opinion, would be for the U.S. to MIOFB; bring the troops home, (and install them at the borders to insure the sovereignty of our territory) and generally "take care of our own".:rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The short answer to your question, in my opinion, is that the moment we entered the war, we lost the war.

A state should not interfere in the internal politics of another state, based upon the principles of state sovereignty and self-determination.

Historical examples of supporters of non-interventionism are George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, who both favored nonintervention in European Wars while maintaining free trade.

The problem is that our "leaders" from both sides of the political spectrum forgot that we should avoid alliances with other nations, but still retain diplomacy, and avoid all wars not related to direct territorial self-defense.

Instead, under both democrat and republican "leadership", we have stuck our nose into everybody's' business; tried to buy friendship through "foreign aid"; indulged in Nation Building; and generally thought of ourselves as the world's policeman.

It's probably too late, but the best course of action, in my opinion, would be for the U.S. to MIOFB; bring the troops home, (and install them at the borders to insure the sovereignty of our territory) and generally "take care of our own".:rolleyes:
I agree completely, but I want to point fingers!!....:rolleyes:

Liberalism in its many forms has destroyed this great nation/Republic.

Making the World “Safe for Democracy”: Woodrow Wilson Asks for War

On April 2, 1917, President Woodrow Wilson went before a joint session of Congress to seek a Declaration of War against Germany in order that the world “be made safe for democracy.” Four days later, Congress voted to declare war, with six senators and fifty congressmen dissenting. “It is a fearful thing,” he told Congress in his speech, “to lead this great peaceful people into war, into the most terrible and disastrous of all wars, civilization itself seeming to be in the balance.” Wilson did not exaggerate; in 1917 the war in Europe had already lasted two-and-a-half bloody years and had become one of the most murderous conflicts in human history. By the time the war ended a year and a half later, an entire generation was decimated—France alone lost half its men between the ages of twenty and thirty-two. The maimed bodies of millions of European men who survived bore mute testimony to the war’s savagery.
 

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To secure peace is to...
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A few of my thoughts:

1) We did most of the financial damage to ourselves. Bush did send us to two wars and Bin Laden only really being relevant to one of them. The billions we have spent in Afghanistan is only a drop in the bucket to our real financial woes. However, exploding deficits, entitlements, borrowing, spending, printing, stimulus, bailout, TARP, quantitative easing, etc has really done us in.

2) Did we win Afghanistan? No. Nothing against the efforts and the price paid by the troops, but it is an unwinnable war. We thrust ourselves into a region where "democracy" has no chance of existing. It never has, and most likely never will. When people live in a mud-hut on the side of a mountain herding goats, they aren't going to trot down to the non-existent post office and vote every couple of years. Freedom and democracy are beyond comprehension for these people. On the other hand, did we cripple the Taliban. Yes, in ways. We have killed a lot of their personnel, but at the same time, we also create a recruiting dream for those guys.

3) Iraq. Again, it's practically an unwinnable war. Identifying the enemy is tough, if not impossible and they will just wait us out. As soon as we leave (and we need to), they will come back in and fill the vacuum. I have very little confidence the Iraq government is capable of standing on its own. We did rid the world of Saddam, but that will only probably periodically as a new "Saddam" eventually fills in where the old Saddam left off.

4) In 2004 or 2005, Libya did turn over their nukes quickly after we nabbed Saddam. That was one other positive. This weapons and equipment have been alleged to have been used in the development of the Stuxnet virus that we used to cripple Iran's nuke program.

Okay, so a few positives have came out...but in my opinion, nothing that will be very lasting. We have lost thousands of troops and tens of thousands more have been wounded. We have spent un-needed billions trying to fix places that are unfixable. We would have been better off keeping our boys at home, protecting our seaports and borders and using those dollars fixing our own financial problems.

Did we win? No. Did we lose? Ultimately, I'm inclined to say in an indirect, over-arching way...yes, yes we did. lose.

Just my thoughts.
 

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Lonewolf
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I'll have to go w/TacomaJPP on this one and a bit further. It is an unwinable war - these people cannot (or will not) comprehind our ways and democracy (cool your jets lefties - I didn't say that makes them "wrong" - but go ahead and say it anyways, I expect nothing less and it kind of amuses me). And, with all the PC B/S here in the United States of the offended - we have to keep our military on such a tight leash -I don't believe those men and women are allowed to win it.
 

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What if 'winning war' wasn't the objective? What if the objective was to make some rich folks richer? We damn sure made that happen. The military industrial complex made out like bandits (literally) and the big rebuilding companies made (are making) billions.

Destroy a country only to rebuild it? Makes no sense right? Well, not until you put it into proper perspective. I call it "making money coming and going."
 

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Corporations bankrupted the country. They moved production to China. Got huge tax cuts while keeping spending at the same levels to keep the most of the population tamed. The military still makes most of their products at home.

And corporations are doing fine. Record profits this week on Wall Street. Those same products still sell for the same over here even though they are made for 1/10 the price...

To combat Chinamart the US either has to increase tariffs on cheap imports...or devalue the dollar.
 

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SNAFU
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Corporations bankrupted the country. They moved production to China. Got huge tax cuts while keeping spending at the same levels to keep the most of the population tamed. The military still makes most of their products at home.

And corporations are doing fine. Record profits this week on Wall Street. Those same products still sell for the same over here even though they are made for 1/10 the price...

To combat Chinamart the US either has to increase tariffs on cheap imports...or devalue the dollar.
Corporations bankrupted us, huh? It wasn't the labor unions making outrageous demands while the Chinese simultaneously offered the corporations cheaper labor without unions? If I was a CEO, I'd run to China with my company too.
 

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We haven't won a war since WW2. My opinion is that the American people have no guts and want everything at microwave speed with out working for it.
The first thing the anal libtards ask what's your exit strategy. Well here is my strategy is
to win every damn war police action or what ever the a$$ clowns in DC send our militarily and then sandbag them second guess & belittle them.
The stupid SOBs can't figure out that there are people in the world that want to make them slaves rape them & kill them no matter how much you kiss their A$$.
XR750
 

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Joe McCarthy was Right!
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We haven't won a war since WW2. My opinion is that the American people have no guts and want everything at microwave speed with out working for it.
The first thing the anal libtards ask what's your exit strategy. Well here is my strategy is
to win every damn war police action or what ever the a$$ clowns in DC send our militarily and then sandbag them second guess & belittle them.
The stupid SOBs can't figure out that there are people in the world that want to make them slaves rape them & kill them no matter how much you kiss their A$$.
XR750
The only way to win a war is to play TOTAL WAR and america doeant have the stomach for that anymore.
 

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I hate everyone equally !
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We haven't won a war since WW2. My opinion is that the American people have no guts and want everything at microwave speed with out working for it.
The first thing the anal libtards ask what's your exit strategy. Well here is my strategy is
to win every damn war police action or what ever the a$$ clowns in DC send our militarily and then sandbag them second guess & belittle them.
The stupid SOBs can't figure out that there are people in the world that want to make them slaves rape them & kill them no matter how much you kiss their A$$.
XR750
What about Grenada and Panama/arrest of Noriega ? I count them as victories anyway

And you did win both desert storm and the war/invasion of Irak ! It was the peace you lost not the wars

If i should be generous i could toss in the peacekeeping missions in Former Yugoslavia among your victories
 

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Simply, an AMERICAN...
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I'm sick and tired of hearing this BS EXCUSE that we cannot win "because we have our military's hands tied behind their backs", or because of the "left", or because of "those against war".

Occupations tend to create the scenario's where we CANNOT win!
We threw everything into Vietnam. We bombed, destroyed, decimated and threw everything including the kitchen sink into that "war", where we fought men, old men, women, children, and the damned occasional dog at times.
Terrorism, is an ideal, period. It is not a "place" to "bomb", and anyone foolish enough to go around spouting the foolish words that we should just nuke the place has no understanding of warfare, at all.
Doing such a foolish act, would show the world we are willing to kill millions of people for a few taliban? Really? Oh yes...that would certainly help our "war on terror". Wake...the hell...up.

War is won, by two means.
Either by total warfare dominance, or by winning the hearts and minds. Total warfare, CANNOT be used in this so called "war", because there is no set "enemy". There is no "place" to decimate. There are no "uniforms" to shoot at. The enemy blends in, at the end of the day, with the populace. That same populace, wants OCCUPIERS OUT. Sound familar?

We cannot, and will not, win this BS so called 'war' as we are fighting it now. It cannot, and will not, EVER be won by creating three "enemies" for every one we kill.


Occupations will never be the answer to win over "ideals". America's only means to win, is to simply do nothing more than provide the example of a better way, and to simply let her beacon of light shine AS that example.
Trying to provide "freedom" by the barrel of a gun, and running ourselves into the ground at breakneck speed, is exactly what the enemy and Usama stated they wanted, and that we would DO....to defeat ourselves.



These are occupations, nothing more.
And yes....many of us have been there, and gotten the damned t-shirt.
It is time to begin looking at this 10 yr old OCCUPATION in a different light.





 
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