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Always Loaded
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I need to vent. I just returned from taking a work acquaintance and his son to the range. He recently finished a AR in 9MM built from a 80% lower. He has moderate firearm experience, according to him. I have been trying to advise him in the months leading up to this moment. I encouraged him to buy a factory carbine, in 5.56. He insisted on no paper trail, even though he has 2-3 other hunting rifles purchased through a FFL. He also firmly decided he wanted a 9MM carbine. His reasoning was ammo compatability. Ballistics are less important apperantly. He finished the build and he has been talking this "beast" up the last few weeks.

The "sights" are quality. Chinese maker, $24.99 on Amazon. The stock is a milspec M4 knock off. The upper has no makers mark whatsoever. The receiver is in the white. It is a 5.56 receiver, with a magwell adapter. This and the magazines were both made by the well respected folks at ProMag. I'm sure you can see where this is going.

He fired 3 rds before a major malfuction. This repeated itself, over, and over. 20 or so rds in, the bolt hold open snapped off and fell out of the magwell. It was made out of cast aluminum. He fired 50 rds, and never got off more than 4 before a FTE or FTF. He managed a 12" group at 50 yards, of which he was very pleased. All together he spent roughly $700 on this abomination.

I felt ashamed, regretful, and sad. I should have been more forceful and direct with him. Not that it would have likely mattered. This is what this man is planning to defend his family with. Please, don't be this guy. Don't let your friends or family become this guy. Don't let fear from the media cause you to arm yourself with a garbage weapon instead of buying a quality firearm. If you do decide to go with a home build, stay within your capabilities and buy quality parts from reputable manufactures.
 

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Egh... thats a horror story well written.

Some people don't want to accept anyone else's experience and knowledge at all. Maybe he had an expensive lesson and will move on to what he needs.

I had a friend that was adamant that he needed an 80% lower i told him that people with out the right tooling had problems with fitting uppers to them and just go get production lower. He never listened but he also never did the 80% thing either. Now he can't find anything around him.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
 

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Eh, it is his money. The man can spend and do as he chooses. He earned it, Not you.

now a 80% is a fun endeavor and I recommend everyone trying it out. Just go into it knowing it may just be a range toy. But have fun and learn about firearms in a way buying completed stuff will not afford you,
 

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I don't understand the obsession with "untraceable" to the point of buying/building inferior products. Sure, it's nice to not have to go thru an FFL or have a paper trail, but if we play this out to the natural conclusion for someone already on gun lists or with carry permits or prior military, or heck even military aged males, if we get down to a door-to-door confiscation scheme these folks are not OFF THE GRID... as they might think they are by having a 80% lower.

What I see is someone having an inferior made weapon that is out of spec or less reliable when the chips are down. Not a good idea.
 

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I need to vent. I just returned from taking a work acquaintance and his son to the range. He recently finished a AR in 9MM built from a 80% lower. He has moderate firearm experience, according to him. I have been trying to advise him in the months leading up to this moment. I encouraged him to buy a factory carbine, in 5.56. He insisted on no paper trail, even though he has 2-3 other hunting rifles purchased through a FFL. He also firmly decided he wanted a 9MM carbine. His reasoning was ammo compatability. Ballistics are less important apperantly. He finished the build and he has been talking this "beast" up the last few weeks.

The "sights" are quality. Chinese maker, $24.99 on Amazon. The stock is a milspec M4 knock off. The upper has no makers mark whatsoever. The receiver is in the white. It is a 5.56 receiver, with a magwell adapter. This and the magazines were both made by the well respected folks at ProMag. I'm sure you can see where this is going.

He fired 3 rds before a major malfuction. This repeated itself, over, and over. 20 or so rds in, the bolt hold open snapped off and fell out of the magwell. It was made out of cast aluminum. He fired 50 rds, and never got off more than 4 before a FTE or FTF. He managed a 12" group at 50 yards, of which he was very pleased. All together he spent roughly $700 on this abomination.

I felt ashamed, regretful, and sad. I should have been more forceful and direct with him. Not that it would have likely mattered. This is what this man is planning to defend his family with. Please, don't be this guy. Don't let your friends or family become this guy. Don't let fear from the media cause you to arm yourself with a garbage weapon instead of buying a quality firearm. If you do decide to go with a home build, stay within your capabilities and buy quality parts from reputable manufactures.
Make sure that when the SHTF, that guy is far, far away from you.
 

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Always Loaded
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Discussion Starter #10
Wonder how many of those parts he bought with his credit card. If the p80 issue with the ATF showed anything its they don't need a serial number on the item to track you.

Its amazing what people consider acceptable when they build it themselves.
Yup. That's what I can't stand. You want to go totally off grid? You want to be the "grey man"? Good for you. But when you look at me and shake your head like I'm doomed because I buy firearms through a FFL, after you buy your parts on Brownells and Midway, you are a moron. On top of that, all three of the people I personally know like this, OWN HANDGUNS they had legally transferred! It's like they think you can buy anything under the sun, but if you buy a AR-15, that has nothing more than a paper copy stored at your FFL, "they" are coming for you. It's ridiculous! Just as easily as you can buy a gun privately, you can SELL a gun privately! Even if it came to that, there's no burdon of proof you even still own the firearm.
 

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I have done 80% lowers and built a couple 5.56 rifles and yes not everything fits perfectly. It takes some time to get them to run right. The uppers and lowers don't fit nice. It is not a job for the faint of heart. It takes time and some knowledge.
I can't image I have $400 in any of mine but then they were meant to be fun building not something I would put my life on.
Now they are together and running correctly I have no plans to ever take them apart.

I read where people break them all the time and I just wonder how, can only imagine it is an assembly issue.
 

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Don't let fear from the media cause you to arm yourself with a garbage weapon instead of buying a quality firearm.

Yay, and I'm also horrified when I hear of people looking to buy second-hand guns, because there's no guarantte the weapon hasn't been accidentally dropped down a cliff, or run over, or been laying at the bottom of a river, and might be riddled with rust and metal fatigue.
The last thing anybody wants in a life-or-death situation is for their gun to blow up in their face..:)
 
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To be fair, terminal ballistics aren't the only consideration. An 8" 9mm AR pistol with a brace sounds like an ideal HD setup to me, especially with Glaser Safety Slugs. Much less flash and noise than a traditional 9mm pistol, and substantially less than a 5.56 of the same barrel length. The ability to hear my wife communicating after one of us fires is more important to me than dumping additional energy into the bad guy.

But it would be a quality build.
 

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I'm english so what the hell do I know about guns, but I saw this size comparison on the net and I'd have thought the two bigger bullets would have more stopping power than the 5.56, or am I missing something?
from left- 5.56mm, .30", 7.62mm
 

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I'm english so what the hell do I know about guns, but I saw this size comparison on the net and I'd have thought the two bigger bullets would have more stopping power than the 5.56, or am I missing something?
from left- 5.56mm, .30", 7.62mm
You are correct, the 7.62 obviously would do more damage. There are other considerations though and each are kind of individual.

Do you want to be able to stop someone at 300 yards, Or will it be up close like 5 yards?
I actually fear defending my home from an invader and using something like a 5.56 and accidently killing someone 2 blocks away and going to jail for that.

Cost and availability of ammo is important. How many different calibers to you want to keep on hand.

Then is it strictly defensive or do you need to hunt for food with it as well?
 

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As i read these posts I cant help but laugh a little bit. Not at the bad circumstances.
But that most don't realize that you too CAN in fact build a pyramid.

But you need the tools and the knowledge to do it.
Most of the folks who buy a P80 keep thinking in terms of a freebie. But fail to understand that the freebie comes with a price.

I have used many multiple poly lowers with no issues and have used several versions of the poly lowers from a 9mm to 308.
the issue isn't so much the actual lower, as it is more akin to someone not having good machine tool experience, understanding and practice with metrology, knows how to read spec. sheets and a whole host of other issues.

But i also know that those with enough knowledge about this who are capable are not going around bragging they did it.
The concept is to remain in the shadows.
 

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..I actually fear defending my home from an invader and using something like a 5.56 and accidently killing someone 2 blocks away and going to jail for that..
Thanks and I forgot to mention shotguns, they seem to be a good bet for short range work, right Arnie?

"Yah you betta believe it"
 

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I'm english so what the hell do I know about guns, but I saw this size comparison on the net and I'd have thought the two bigger bullets would have more stopping power than the 5.56, or am I missing something?
from left- 5.56mm, .30", 7.62mm
The cartridges in the pictures appear to be 5.56x45mm, .30-30 and 7.62x51mm. The amount of energy, per cartridge, indeed is in the same order from lowest to highest, left to right. This is often mis-interpreted as stopping power- reality the better metric is muzzle energy.. But what is stopping power ? A lowly .22LR can be a manstopper as well, so, anyways.. Stopping power requires one to hit something vital; and that can be done with most forms of ammo, all the way down to the lowly .22LR. If the round over-penetrates, then it is not dumping all of that energy into the target, so that's wasted energy, if you ask me, unless you are trying to take down the proverbial two birds with one stone thing..
 
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