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ruralist
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
FLAGSTAFF, Arizona (AP) -- A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should have a gun and had taught him how to use firearms, the clergyman said.

The Very Rev. John Paul Sauter said Vincent Romero consulted him on whether his son should have a gun.
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The Very Rev. John Paul Sauter said the man, Vincent Romero, 29, wanted his son to learn how to hunt, but the boy's stepmother, Tiffany, suggested that he have a BB gun.

Police say the boy used a 22.-caliber rifle Wednesday to kill his father and another man, Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos.

Romero was an avid hunter who taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs, said Sauter, of St. Johns Catholic Church.

"He wanted to make sure the kid wasn't afraid of guns, knew how to handle it," the priest said. "He was just too young. ... That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal."

The boy, who faces two counts of premeditated murder, did not act on the spur of the moment, St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said.

"I'm not accusing anybody of anything at this point," he said Saturday. "But we're certainly going to look at the abuse part of this. He's 8 years old. He just doesn't decide one day that he's going to shoot his father and shoot his father's friend for no reason. Something led up to this."

On Friday, a judge ordered a psychological evaluation of the boy. Under Arizona law, charges can be filed against anyone 8 or older.

The boy had no record of complaints with Arizona Child Protective Services, said Apache County Attorney Brad Carlyon.

"He had no record of any kind, not even a disciplinary record at school," he said. "He has never been in trouble before."

In a sign of the emotional and legal complexities of the case, police are pushing to have the boy tried as an adult even as they investigate possible abuse, Melnick said. If convicted as a minor, the boy could be sent to juvenile detention until he turns 18. Video Watch an expert's take on the situation »

Police had responded to calls of domestic violence at the Romero home, but authorities were searching records Saturday to determine when those calls were placed, Melnick said.

"We're going to use every avenue of the law that's available to us, but we're also looking at the human side," he said.

Melnick said officers arrived at Romero's home within minutes of the shooting Wednesday in St. Johns, which has a population of about 4,000 and is 170 miles northeast of Phoenix. They found one victim just outside the front door and the other dead in an upstairs room.

Romans had been renting a room at the Romero house, prosecutors said. Both men were employees of a construction company working at a power plant near St. Johns.

The boy went to a neighbor's house and said he "believed that his father was dead," Carlyon said.

Melnick said police got a confession, but the boy's attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.

"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an 8-year-old kid."

Prosecutors aren't sure where the case is headed, Carlyon said.

"There's a ton of factors to be considered and weighed, including the juvenile's age," he said. "The counterbalance against that, the acts that he apparently committed."

FBI statistics show that instances of children younger than 11 committing homicides are very rare. According to recent FBI supplementary homicide reports, there were at least three such cases each year in 2003, 2004 and 2005; there were at least 15 in 2002. More recent statistics weren't available, nor were details of the cases.

Earlier this year in Arizona, prosecutors in Cochise County filed first-degree murder charges against a 12-year-old boy accused of killing his mother.

Romero had full custody of the child. The boy's biological mother visited St. Johns during the weekend from Mississippi and returned to Arizona after the shootings, Carlyon said.

Family members declined to speak on the record.
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Brewer said the boy "seems to be in good spirits."

"He's scared," he said. "He's trying to be tough, but he's scared."
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/08/child.charged.ap/index.html

This is a real shame.. Got told about it today then linked by someone I've spent the last few weeks convincing that the only way adults will be safe with firearms is if they learn to respect them young.
 

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Deo VIndice
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If they want gun control,start with Hollywood.Stop glorifying irresponsibly handling.Stop showing killing like its something to aspire to.
+1 to that! but we know they won't upset such a good campaign contributor!
 
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ruralist
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hollywood has its part to play. Foreign policy too. Must have been complicated growing up in the Bush years; hearing about good and evil, arranging meetings with God, hundreds of thousands of dead women and children and so on. Perhaps a foreign policy of isolationism would help.

Must say that this story does not bode well for assault rifle owners; a simple .22 killed these men.
 

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Semper non compos mentis
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If they want gun control,start with Hollywood.Stop glorifying irresponsibly handling.Stop showing killing like its something to aspire to.
Fred, I expect some flak over this from some folks, but I have to say it.

Some things you just can't realistically legislate against - Hollywood is one. *Stupidity* is another.

I saw this article on the news this morning and immediately thought of how stupid it is to involve kids that young with firearms. Teach them utmost respect for guns until they are old enough and responsible enough to be allowed to use them. How old is that? I just don't know. But not 8 for Heaven's sake. Those families are destroyed, for what? How must that kid's Mother feel; and the kid himself?
 

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The Punisher
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What I find hard to believe, is that the kid was questioned without a parent, guardian, or lawyer. If a confession was coerced in this manner, I can't see how it could possibly stand up in court.
 

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I started my kids out shooting when they where around nine or ten. I would load one round at a time at a range and go through the entire safety and handling of the fire arm well before we ever got to the shooting part. My kids are teenagers now and liscensed hunters but they still don't have access to any firearm when I'm not around.
I don't think every child should be trusted with a firearm at such a young age but that should be left up to the parents to decide. This shooting is definately not the usual outcome in most cases where kids are taught to hunt and shoot at a young age.
 

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Hollywood has its part to play. Foreign policy too. Must have been complicated growing up in the Bush years; hearing about good and evil, arranging meetings with God, hundreds of thousands of dead women and children and so on. Perhaps a foreign policy of isolationism would help.

Must say that this story does not bode well for assault rifle owners; a simple .22 killed these men.
Your trying to blame this on Hollywood and Bush? Youre probably one of those parents who blames McDonalds for having a fat kid.
 

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I think we'll hear more and more too. Awful stories how entire families and towns were accidentally wiped out!

Mad Dog, trust me. This happens. One of my sons a long time ago had information about a stolen gun. The police came and questioned him. I was sheeple then and let the police officer talk to my son alone. Come to find out, instead of asking for the information the police tried to convince my son that HE had stolen the gun. That was the day I quit being a sheeple and I have never trusted the police again. The police told us that they felt us being with my son when they talked to him would make him uncomfortable and perhaps they could get more info out of him if we weren't around. My son was only 12 at the time. When I heard my son loudly say .... I told you over and over what happened and I did not do it - that was when I stepped in and said....this is over leave. The truth eventually came out and the offending party was arrested but we have never forgotten when we thought we were being good citizens trying to help the police and instead they tried to pin a crime on my son. From that day forward, if a stolen gun comes into my possession, to bad for the owner. That gun will reside at the bottom of some river or lake. It will never be in my house and I will never tell the police.
 

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I think you guys are over reacting at this time... there are a few things to consider, such as the "friend" worked with the father and was renting a room from the father in the home. Dollar to a donut it's going to come out the friend was molesting the kid and the father didnt believe the kid when he told him. There is a record of domestic calls at the home with the local PD as well... The kid will be vindicated and made a hero and the gun forgotten about in this one, mark my words...
 

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"arrexian", if you have something to say, why dont you post it in this forum? Theres no need to send a PM about what you think I am. If you dont want anyone to comment on your post, dont post anything.
Why do people always want to lay the blame elsewhere? You/we dont even have all the facts surrounding this story, and the kid did because of hollywood or bush.:rolleyes: (by the way, my wife calls me worse things than you did, you could have came up with something better)
 

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ruralist
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
"arrexian", if you have something to say, why dont you post it in this forum?

Mods and staff encourage those messages to be PMed. Anyway are you snubbed after the lack of French nationality? Will you respond to my reply to your return PM?

Theres no need to send a PM about what you think I am.


There was, you jumped to a presumption about me in your post, an assumption that irrates me. I will decide when there is a need to PM you :)

If you dont want anyone to comment on your post, dont post anything.


Erm what? I am open to anything but misinterpretations and then a scolding from you. The hollywood comment was written by someone else - I responded to that comment. I didn't even say they were responsible, I only edged at agreement with Fred saying "they have a part to play". What is your logic here? I have responded to someone's comment, you have insulted me and now suppose that I do not want responses?

Why do people always want to lay the blame elsewhere?

I wouldn't, if I did it would be right there in the first post. Societal reasoning came up and IMO if you want to look at hollwood then also look at foreign policy. Outside of societal reasoning it's probably a case of personal abuse (the article mentions a biological mother as if the family is broken). I wouldn't know but will you snap at me for this view too?

You/we dont even have all the facts surrounding this story, and the kid did because of hollywood or bush.:rolleyes:

I have not suggested having all the facts, I've posted an article saying it was a real shame.. Then responded to someone's comment which you apparantly can not see.

(by the way, my wife calls me worse things than you did, you could have came up with something better)


I think an acronym is all that is necessary.
 

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Geez, convicting a kid...f**kin Americans. Nah, just joking. Anyone heard of the Aramoana massacre in NZ? We have our problems, too. I have to say though, convicting an 8 year old of murder is bloody stupid. If he spends 10 years in Juvie, god knows what he'll learn and turn out like. And I don't think hollywood is the prob here, coz it was the father who taught the kid to shoot in the first place. I reckon that children should learn to respect firearms while they're young, allowed to shoot with HEAVY supervision at 13, and when they are old enough to obtain a firearm, then they can have one. From the sounds of things, it looks to me like the kid was unsupervised when he got the gun. But I could be wrong.
 

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ruralist
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
"arrexian", After all you just wrote, you PM me again with the name calling. Im not going to "get into it" with you. We all know how tough the french are:rolleyes:
You already did get into it with me when you ignored the person who raised the hollywood point then made an offensive and abrasive presumption about me, no doubt as it says France next to my name, the France thing seems a real sticking point in the PM and here.

PS. You have another incoming PM, exactly the same one as the last two :thumb:
 

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I think you guys are over reacting at this time... there are a few things to consider, such as the "friend" worked with the father and was renting a room from the father in the home. Dollar to a donut it's going to come out the friend was molesting the kid and the father didnt believe the kid when he told him. There is a record of domestic calls at the home with the local PD as well... The kid will be vindicated and made a hero and the gun forgotten about in this one, mark my words...
+1

I can't see a normal 8 year old just snapping and killing 2 people for no reason. If it happened like Palladin said then I agree with his prediction of the out come. That kid was put through hell and couldn't take anymore. Just my opinion.
 
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I give Hollywood a healthy share of blame because they deserve it.A hundred years ago,an 8 year old kid would be EXPECTED to learn to shoot,to provide game for the table,and to protect family and livestock.How many examples can you think of from a hundred years ago that kids shot their parents?Any?
Hollywood has made billions from showing killing and the irresponsible use of firearms,and should damn sure share the blame.
 
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