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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a question that is sure to start a good conversation. I got the inspiration for it while attempting to install Fallout 3 on my PC.(not having any luck:mad:)

Now for a disclaimer. I think that having a selection of firearms and a good supply of ammo is very important. Having said that, IF the shtf for a long time and total societal break down happens, how long till firearms are now longer the primary weapons?

Im sure someone will say " well i can just make Blackpowder". Um black powder sounds simple, but is very hard to make. I have a book at on it, it is not a simple process. It is a dangerous process. Now surely someone will figure it out, but i dont think they will be able to produce very much. Sure some black powder weapons such as lever actions and some pistols can operate ok on bp and offer a decent range and rate of fire, but alot of them are single shots. We as a country learned the folley of going to war with single shots. I dont know if they would be entirely usefull for defending your self.

So Lets say its a few years past the "event". Most commerical sources of ammo are exhuasted, and were all into our reloading supplies. How long can we last on our reloading supplies even if we ration it. No fun plinking, maybe a few rounds a week for training and a few for hunting. Fast forward a few more years and soon most of us are running o ut of ammo. Sure some may be making small amounts of bp, but what will the rest of the Survivors do?

WIll melee weapons make a comeback as self defense weapons? Swords, staves,spears and the like? Will archery and bows and cross bows and bowerey become standard ranged attack weapons for defense/offense?

Im sure things would have to fall pretty far for this to happen. So the question is, how far do we have to fall before guns get put up and melee/archery non gun weapons become standard fair again? My self, im pretty good with a Fencing sword lol. I would imagine one of two time frames. It could take either a very long time, say a few generations or it would happen very quickly.(depending on how violent it gets post poopfanning)

So what say you, should we as preppars atleast give a lil training time to melee weapons? Should we even think of using archery for self defense post "event" and try to practice for such a skill? Hunting Game with bows and shooting people are 2 different things i think.
 

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Personally, I hope that after the worst is over and the savages have either killed each-other off or been offed by their intended victims who are still decent and civilized, the people who remain will have seen their fill of carnage and will be strongly inclined toward restoring the rule of law.

With that accomplished, "weapons of defense" may be employed as tools primarily used to hunt and for elimination of the occasional pest critter. Still a good idea keeping them within reach just in case, but it will be more of "an armed society is a polite society" environment with those kind of people running the show. BP would be an option I guess, or even archery for hunting, but our ancestors made-do with them and I imagine we can as well.

Lets hope there are enough of civilized society left after the worst.
 

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I can't see us going back past the flintlock rifle myself. Why black powder isn't easy to make it certainly doesn't take a complex chemical plant to make and all the ingredients can be sourced from nature. You have to take into account that man's mechanical knowledge is far more advanced than it was 200 years ago and at least some people will figure out how to make necessitates fairly quickly no matter what happens. Combine that with the fact that we have a ton more stuff and materials today than our ancestors could dream of back then, so I can't see us falling any further than the BP age at worst.
 

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How many bullets can be flying out without one coming back at someone? Some folks think they need 30,000 rounds. There is no way you can use up that many at a conservative pace. I mean no major practicing on a frequent basis. Few rounds here n there, but no 100 rounds a week type thing.

Even what folks consider a rather humble amout would probably last a lifetime, and you kids would be doing OK for years and years to come.

IF your really that paranoid about running out of ammo. Buy a case of 22lr and don't touch it at all. 5,000 rounds of ammunition will last you a lifetime.
 

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space samurai
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not if your feeding your family with that ammo it wont. but that is if your only means of getting food is shooting it.

its going to take alot to drop us back to the stone age. it would have to be say an asteroid hit or volcano eruption causing a 3 year winter and killing 90 percent of the population, and even then i wonder.

our military has doctors, engineers, and scientists. as long as the military makes it threw we wont be thrown back to pre electicity.
 

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Super Moderator and Walking Methane Refinery
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Making black powder is not as hard as you make it out to be. Most fireworks hobbiests make their own. I've made it before too. The hard part is getting high quality charcoal.

But if so much time has passed that we've exhausted supplies of almost everything, industrious folks might begin small cottage industries making needed supplies. Even modern smokeless powder is not that hard to make if you know how. I have a friend who worked for decades at ATK/Hercules. He knows how to make it from scratch, extrude it, tinker with the base formula to adjust it to different burn rates, etc.

But this is all empty speculation. We don't know what's going to happen, for how long, or how far we'll fall. We have too much infrastructure in place to just be thrust back into the stone age forever. We're an industrious species and we will start salvaging and reusing this infrastructure as we can.
 

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How many bullets can be flying out without one coming back at someone?
That's one of the things I notice a lot. In people's shootout fantasies, their bullets always hit and the bad guy's bullets always miss. Our brain loves to play tricks on us like that.

The reality is that in a two way exchange, both sides can expect to take losses, regardless which side wins. For most small groups, those losses are not going to be sustainable.
 

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I sell US Military MRE's
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How many bullets can be flying out without one coming back at someone? Some folks think they need 30,000 rounds. There is no way you can use up that many at a conservative pace. I mean no major practicing on a frequent basis. Few rounds here n there, but no 100 rounds a week type thing.

Even what folks consider a rather humble amout would probably last a lifetime, and you kids would be doing OK for years and years to come.

IF your really that paranoid about running out of ammo. Buy a case of 22lr and don't touch it at all. 5,000 rounds of ammunition will last you a lifetime.
+1. Even though I live in Los Angeles, for hunting I can still shoot a squirrel (in most cases) with only one .22 round. Real life, I see most ammo use being extremely minimal. If not, your probably going to be dead. Realistically, how many people are going to have multiple gun battles involving three or four 30 round magazines of 5.56? Have enough to cover yourself, but people can get crazy with what they think they will need.
 

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The bigger issue, in my opinion, is that the food supply (i.e., wildlife) would be killed off by humans well before all of the ammo runs out.

Everyone running for the hills to get that trophy deer after their freezer either quits working or runs empty.

At least the NYC and Chicago pigeon problems will be finally solved.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks all for the discussion! I dont think im ever going to buy enough guns to outfit every family member that comes over post poopfanning, but i defineatly want to stock up on ammo.

Mikek You mention making bp is not that hard. My question is, it legal to make for private usage? Here in indiana, i looked up the laws and it mentions making explosives is a felony. Is that for sale or private useage? I found a book on the subject and it details the equipment to do it. I would love to try and make a lil bit, but not if its gonna be a felony.

I cant imagine trying to make smokeless tho. Id imagine its a complicated process.
 

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Personally, I think you guys need to grow up, put down the video game joy-stick, and start paying attention to what's really happening.
There ain't gonna be this highly anticipated and romanticized Mad-Max collapse that allows you to strut up and down your block sporting all your tactical gear.
Better start thinking about unprecedented food shortages and an oppressive,globalist police state.
Because that's what's happening here. :rolleyes:

(yeah,yeah, I know. No one wants imagine that this ever increasing wave of assaults on our liberty isn't going to miraculously collapse one day..............but,nevertheless...........)
 

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Super Moderator and Walking Methane Refinery
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Mikek You mention making bp is not that hard. My question is, it legal to make for private usage? Here in indiana, i looked up the laws and it mentions making explosives is a felony. Is that for sale or private useage? I found a book on the subject and it details the equipment to do it. I would love to try and make a lil bit, but not if its gonna be a felony.
Yes it is. At least by federal laws. You'll have to check your local laws. Making "explosives" is illegal everywhere. Black powder is not on that list though. It doesn't require a license to own, nor do any of the chemicals used in it's manufacture. Amateur pyrotechnics are a legal hobby in most areas so the chemicals they use are legal to own. Check out amateur pyrotechnics sites for more specific info. There are many. I frequent skylighter.com.
 

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Super Moderator and Walking Methane Refinery
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Personally, I think you guys need to grow up, put down the video game joy-stick, and start paying attention to what's really happening.
There ain't gonna be this highly anticipated and romanticized Mad-Max collapse that allows you to strut up and down your block sporting all your tactical gear.
Better start thinking about unprecedented food shortages and an oppressive,globalist police state.
Because that's what's happening here. :rolleyes:

(yeah,yeah, I know. No one wants imagine that this ever increasing wave of assaults on our liberty isn't going to miraculously collapse one day..............but,nevertheless...........)
A whole lot of us see it that way. It's going to be a disaster of epic proportion if it happens as bad as many of us are planning for.
 

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Thanks all for the discussion! I dont think im ever going to buy enough guns to outfit every family member that comes over post poopfanning, but i defineatly want to stock up on ammo.

Mikek You mention making bp is not that hard. My question is, it legal to make for private usage? Here in indiana, i looked up the laws and it mentions making explosives is a felony. Is that for sale or private useage? I found a book on the subject and it details the equipment to do it. I would love to try and make a lil bit, but not if its gonna be a felony.

I cant imagine trying to make smokeless tho. Id imagine its a complicated process.
gun powder is a propellent not an explosive.
 

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gun powder is a propellent not an explosive.
True but he said bp originally which is black powder and is an explosive. Your statement is absolutely true concerning his statement of "smokeless" which is controlled burning propellant.
 

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The reality is that in a two way exchange, both sides can expect to take losses, regardless which side wins. For most small groups, those losses are not going to be sustainable.
And even sustaining a wound that might not be a big deal right now, could easily be fatal without advanced and prompt medical care.

If I get involved in a gunfight, I've already screwed up big time.

Az
 

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Well ash made gunpowder with a few chemistry books. Army of darkness, anybody? But this is exactly why I make sure my long guns accept bayonets.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Mildot, your right it most likely will be something like argentina and what ferfel experinaced, rather then mad max. Tho there is a chance that a mad max could happen, especial if the guys in the 2012 forum have anything to say about it. IMHO all it would take is one good asteroid impact or CME to fubar us in to madmax quite quickly.

While protection is going to be important, having 100's of guns and millions of rounds of ammo to out fit your familial army is just foolishness. Thats alot of food and a working supplies that can be bought.

Mikek, im going to look at the sights you mentioned, maybe quite interesting thanks for the information.

I think that maybe its a fear thing. We want to be prepared to deal with any problem, and many of us think that there will be this massive army of rabid welfare recipiants beating our doors down for our food. Short of getting caught on the wrong end of a riot, i dont think our self defense problems are going to be that hard.
 
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