[fragout]

I think you are missing the point, the point is that a bow or a muzzle-loading gun is just as efficient at killing game as a modern rifle providing it is is experienced hands. You may shoot game at 400 yards, but I can get close enough to actually touch wild game, so I tend to hunt from point blank to 25 yards with my smoothbore fusil.
Now if you say that a modern rifle or shotgun is better in a firefight, I will agree with you, & if I were travelling in company, then I would certainly be taking my modern arms along with me, but if I am travelling alone, & can only carry one firearm, then I choose to carry my smoothbore fusil.

With respect & regards, Keith.

And a modern rifle is capable of much more in experienced hands, in all types of weather, terrain , winds, etc..... Especially under less than optimum shooting conditions while in cold, wet, and tired hands.

1. I have shown pics of wild game that I was within 10 inches of, and could have used a rock...let alone any firearm. The point here: One would need to back away from it to actually use a muzzle loading rifle or a modern rifle.

2. More towards your point.......the same 308 chambered rifle can and has been used to hunt at very closer range and works just as well. In addition, subsonic cartridges also have plenty of performance up close, and are much more quiet when suppressed. ( I close the rifle's spindle valve so that it is as quiet as it can possibly be when using subsonic 308 Winchester for close quarter hunting, plus it keeps the gas cylinder completely clean . It is much faster to manually reload second cartridge than any muzzle loader btw.
ANY 308 or 7.62x51mm cartridge works well for this endeavor. ( Have tried it and its proven.)

3. Have used modern archery to hunt with. Not even a close comparison to modern rifles such as a 308, 270, or 3006 for a whole host of reasons pertaining to actual use as a hunting tool. ( But that is a different subject.)

2 examples in pic below . All inside of 25 yards.

Note:
Pic 1. A youngin taken at around 15 feet.
Pic 2 : 6 hogs taken inside of 25 yards and in a handful of seconds. Had I been using a muzzle loader that day, the total might have been 1.
Pic3 : 'The second bear taken in roughly 3-4 seconds after the first bear. He was in a full sprint when hit btw.......and using the same rifle I used to hunt those other critters with out past 400 yards.

The point here = One has more options when it comes to hunting and especially when it comes to defense or security if one is using a modern rifle using a modern rifle cartridge.

FWIW. ......Security is the primary reason as to why I carry a firearm in the first place. ( Double that via a " post" shtf/ teotwawki " environment.) Triple it if I am runnin solo. ( Simply put......if a person can physically teach any destination on this planet.....then another could do the same, or already be at said destination to begin with.)

Not trying to bash muzzle guns or archery for that matter. Overall, their disadvantages compared to a MSR chambered in a true rifle cartridge are very relevant to this discussion........even if one claims that they NEVER ever miss, and/ or....can ALWAYS creep very close to thier prey.... much less claim to be able and AVOID possible 2 legged threats EVERY time....especially running solo . I don't believe either claim after a lifetime of hunting and still at it as of this morning.A second shot immediately available has proven it's worth on multiple occasions.





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[Le Loup]

Still missing the point!!!

And a modern rifle is capable of much more in experienced hands, in all types of weather, terrain , winds, etc..... Especially under less than optimum shooting conditions while in cold, wet, and tired hands.

1. I have shown pics of wild game that I was within 10 inches of, and could have used a rock...let alone any firearm. The point here: One would need to back away from it to actually use a muzzle loading rifle or a modern rifle.

2. More towards your point.......the same 308 chambered rifle can and has been used to hunt at very closer range and works just as well. In addition, subsonic cartridges also have plenty of performance up close, and are much more quiet when suppressed. ( I close the rifle's spindle valve so that it is as quiet as it can possibly be when using subsonic 308 Winchester for close quarter hunting, plus it keeps the gas cylinder completely clean . It is much faster to manually reload second cartridge than any muzzle loader btw.
ANY 308 or 7.62x51mm cartridge works well for this endeavor. ( Have tried it and its proven.)

3. Have used modern archery to hunt with. Not even a close comparison to modern rifles such as a 308, 270, or 3006 for a whole host of reasons pertaining to actual use as a hunting tool. ( But that is a different subject.)

2 examples in pic below . All inside of 25 yards.

Note:
Pic 1. A youngin taken at around 15 feet.
Pic 2 : 6 hogs taken inside of 25 yards and in a handful of seconds. Had I been using a muzzle loader that day, the total might have been 1.
Pic3 : 'The second bear taken in roughly 3-4 seconds after the first bear. He was in a full sprint when hit btw.......and using the same rifle I used to hunt those other critters with out past 400 yards.

The point here = One has more options when it comes to hunting and especially when it comes to defense or security if one is using a modern rifle using a modern rifle cartridge.

FWIW. ......Security is the primary reason as to why I carry a firearm in the first place. ( Double that via a " post" shtf/ teotwawki " environment.) Triple it if I am runnin solo. ( Simply put......if a person can physically teach any destination on this planet.....then another could do the same, or already be at said destination to begin with.)

Not trying to bash muzzle guns or archery for that matter. Overall, their disadvantages compared to a MSR chambered in a true rifle cartridge are very relevant to this discussion........even if one claims that they NEVER ever miss, and/ or....can ALWAYS creep very close to thier prey. I don't believe either claim after a lifetime of hunting and still at it as of this morning.A second shot immediately available has proven it's worth on multiple occasions.





11B

You are still missing the point, this is a discussion about muzzle-loading guns, not how good you are with a modern firearms.
Keith.

 

[fragout]

(1)
Missed the range part, sorry. I thought this was last ditch effort survival.
(2)
Firing modern muzzle loading bullets in a muzzle loader. Not smokeless ones.
(3)
Got some money to bet? I have chrony pictures and video to show it.
I have a specialized hand built rifle with the finest makings and have professed those procedures on muzzle loading forums. I use standard 3F Goex powder, hand made Lee mold round ball (with the spue sanded off)
several different patch materials.

Like I said, the key is the Davenport Formula. Find your max load and your accurate load.
(4)
You are correct. One of my favorite targets at rondy is a 1 inch square piece of steel that is 2 feet long at 150 yards. I can hit it 7 out of 10 times with my old eyes. Never have bothered to shoot further than that. Now Im gonna have to go out and hit the dang 200 yard gong. Which I considered way out of range before. (still do)

Read the entire post and the point will be understood. Chopping a post up iot take things out of context means nothing in a friendly debate...lol

1. Nope. Effective range . Last ditch survival = A modern firearm to begin with. Note: Modern in my book = Rifles such as a Remington model 700, Ruger GSR, or M1A Scout Squad.... Which is chambered in cartridges like 308 Winchester and 7mm08.

2. See number 1 above or the org post. Not a modern inline shooting modern bullets.

3. Yup. Have a dollar to bet that my AK pistol chambered in 7.62x39mm will achieve 2195 fps at the muzzle . Chrono is a Lab radar here, and have plenty of video that not only proves it, but more video of this pistol being utilized as a feral pig hunting tool out to 200 yards, as well as multiple pigs at close distances inside areas with thick brush. ( Close 3k worth of pics showing internal damage caused by cartridges that I pay a bit less than 18 cents per round for. Less drop and more resistant to full value winds too boot. ( Been hunting with 7.62x39mm back when an SKS could be bought by the case at 45 bucks each, and a chicom type 56 AK was called a AK47S. ( Prior to the NHM90/ MAC90)

4. Old eyes? Sure. Ok. I was talking about moving targets whose vital areas are much smaller than 2 feet, and at unknown distances under less than optimum shooting conditions. From big too small in pics below.....

Pic1 : 177 yards AK pistol, iron sights, 117gr TUI 7.62x39mm. ( Pig was moving at a trot quartering away, as it sensed me on a stalk through dead oak leaves.)
Pic 2 : 166 yards M14S, iron sights, 165gr SGK 7.62x51mm ( Also moving as it was spooked by another hunter)
Pic3 : 192 yards M14S, optics, 168gr OTM 7.62x51mm ( Optimum shot but rest of hog was concealed by brush.)
Pic4 : 252 yards M1A A1, iron sights, 168gr OTM ( full value gusts up to 55mph that day.)
Pic5: 226 yards, M14S, optics, 168gr TTSX ( Full value 20mph winds, perfect hit to where one needs to place the pill when hunting full bore bull moose.)

Note : Above pic descriptions are not meant as bragging. Like I said before.....Give me a great muzzle gun shooter/ hunter, and I will increase his effective range with a modern rifle on any given day .

11B

 

[fragout]

You are still missing the point, this is a discussion about muzzle-loading guns, not how good you are with a modern firearms.
Keith.

How accurate can a muzzle loader be? Effective range? Etc....... Your point= Get close every time so there is " always" a good chance of bagging that critter. No problem using a Marlin 336, Rem 700, or M1A scout squad for the same method. ( C'mon now.....You are discussing a method of hunting now.....and not effective range.

Looking at it from a realistic point of view, the advantages of modern firearms far outweigh a muzzle loader. Take a skilled hunter/ shooter and give him both. It is a very simple feat to find out as to which type is more efficient.

Effective range is only one of them.



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[Trip Wire]

I would venture to say the flinter is the shortest effective range tool in the box.

Maybe one of the reason I have 3 45/70s that fire black powder.
Or I just love 45/70

 

[fragout]

Running out of modern ammunition seems to be brought up often . How much does one actually need to begin with while hunting?

I present a simple guide for one to do the math for themselves.............


Lets take a look at North American deer for example.

On average, a 1 to 3 year old doe at a field dressed weight of 85 lbs will yield 41 lbs of boneless meat. A button with a field dress weight of 102 lbs will yield. 49 lbs of boneless meat.

On the flip side, a " mature" doe at 7 years or older with a field dressed weight of 130 lbs will yield 62 lbs of boneless meat......while a buck of same age or older with a field dressed weight of 207 lbs will yield 100lbs of boneless meat.

Note: This excludes other parts of a deer that can be eaten as well as preserved for later consumption if one has the skills to accomplish this. ( Another topic for a different discussion.)

In order to utilize this guide, one must figure as to how much meat a body will consume over the course of set time, such as how much per month for example. They also need to accomplish the same for each person in thier group who they must also provide for.

As it sits in current times, the average American consumes about 18.5 to 20 lbs of meat/ poultry per month. ( They also consume quite a few other types of food that a group depending on what they hunt to survive might not as well.

Other factors = growing food, ( crops/ livestock) , trapping, and gathering wild veggies/ fruits.


As you can see from the above, it does not take multiple 1000rd cases of ammunition to hunt year around unless one is attempting to feed an entire themselves for decades upon decades.

Best case: One can feed themselves for one year with 5 rds. ( Mature deer with the 1 shot one drop at any distance/ " I never miss"/ I never blow a stalk / perfect world....where defending ones kill is not needed because there is nothing around to defend it from....etc........ In that case, a loaded 20rd M14 magazine = 4 years before I need to either reload that magazine, or swap it out with another mag that is already loaded.

The Ruger GSR would mean a complete reload every 2 years in a perfect world.

A muzzle gun = reloading after every individual shot taken. In the " never ever miss" world, that equals 5 total.

Now do the math in a more realistic light where occasional shots taken yield a miss, a stalk is blown which can also result in a miss, feeding more than yourself, etc.......

A worst case :'double the ammo consumption per year at 10rds.

I reload the M14S every 2 years, GSR every year, and muzzle gun every time it is fired.

Note: This is only a guide. Not gospel. Rule of 3 should apply.
At minimum......

3 ways to obtain food.

As it pertains directly to this thread........ A minimum of 3 methods to utilize for hunting. ( Stalk, ambush, longer distance )
I choose a method based on several reasons that would take too long to list here. Straight to the point.........3 options are better than one. Same reason why I choose a hunting tool that works very well using any of the 3 methods listed above.
Muzzle loader aint it.



11B

 

[fragout]

I would venture to say the flinter is the shortest effective range tool in the box.

Maybe one of the reason I have 3 45/70s that fire black powder.
Or I just love 45/70

I used to own a Marlin guide gun chambered in 4570 back when I thought I needed a thumper. Used smokeless powder instead of bp.

I would say that the long gun with the shortest effective range at current time = a shotgun. Slugs or shot.

Use it for skeet shooting nowadays. Also smokeless powder , although it has cycled blackpowder shells in the past.

Rifle next to it is used often as a hunting tool since it was built in 2003 and as of this morning vs 3 now deceased feral pigs in less than 5 seconds. ( A fourth pig made it to cover before I had the opportunity to dump um......)
Ammo this morning was 7.62x51mm Lake City M80

Lately, my average hog dumps equal 2 to 3 per each individual occasion. According to the wife, a total of 114 hogs taken on our properties alone during 2019.

Edit: 2019 = 214 hogs.

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[Le Loup]

I thought this was a black powder section & thread

I am easily confused these days.
Keith.

 

[Optimist]

It is and should be. But you've seen the attention span of some of the posters here, and they ain't by any means the really oblivious ones.

 

[Flinter]

It takes some people a whole lot of words to say nothing.

 

[Le Loup]

It is and should be. But you've seen the attention span of some of the posters here, and they ain't by any means the really oblivious ones-Flinter It takes some people a whole lot of words to say nothing.

Comforting to know it is not just me that thinks this way!
Thanks guys,
Keith.

 

[Optimist]

Were you so inclined, you might find a more kindred set of spirits at Gunboards. https://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?58-Other-Boards-Of-Interest

 

[Trip Wire]

Yeah lets get back to throwing stones on cleaning and maintaining. The OP of BP ballistics in several pages back.
I can hit a squirrels left sphere at 100 yards, behind my back with a mirror.
Your turn.
Dang nabit, my barrel in rifled, DISREGARD

 

[Optimist]

Trip Wire, I want to see that trick. You gotta use my boomerang though....

 

[fragout]

I thought this was a black powder section & thread

I am easily confused these days.
Keith.

No need to be confused. ( Afterall, you were comparing blackpowder guns to modern rifles/ cartridges in post #118) Why can't others do the same?

The point of this thread :

This thread started out as a scenario where the end user has ran himself out of ammunition ( modern smokeless powder stuffed in a brass/ metal case with primer on one end ...bullet at the other.) Ammo resupply apparently is not going to happen either.

This led into a overall maximum effective range...ie. ....accuracy distance.......so that comparisons could be made next to the modern weapon and what is achievable now.

My argument is the following:

1. Running out of ammo in the first place = lack of preparation . Prepare accordingly. A 20rd box of 243, 270, 7mm08, 308, or 3006 can last a long time via hunting big game. ( See post #126 of this thread for a general idea )

2. The advantages of MSR/ smokeless powder far outweigh primitive weapons. ( That should be obvious, but I can list them as you did in post #118)
I disagree with you, as primitive weapons are not near as efficient at killing game....which had been proven since the advent of smokeless powder.

3. Better uses for home made BP than using it to load a firearm. ( No need to use it in this fashion.....as in see number 1 above.)

4. Self defense should not be excluded simply because of ignorance. After all, the scenerio put it in a post TEOTWAWKI where no one is selling ammo at the time.

5. Accuracy/ Effective range.
Anyone putting game down on consistent basis with thier flintlocks and home made bp out past 200 yards? How about 300 or 400 yards? ( Don't hunt in Aussie, but there are several areas in North America where stalking close enough is not possible....depending on time of year, weather, etc.....) One would end up starving to death trying to use only one hunting method in a post shtf environment especially.





If this were in relation to sport hunting ( fun gun),then comparisons would not be all that of a concern, but this is not the case in this thread.


( Kind of ironic that some here stating others have lack of attention spans are in fact the ones who are suffering from it.)





11B

 

[Le Loup]

Advantages of a Flintlock Muzzle-loader.

a bit off topic.. but i was thinking about the costs of operating a flintlock.. you could theoretically find and knap your own flints.. but thats if you can find them the right size and know how to do it.. i dont have that many rock formations where i am where i could happen across some good pieces of flint. so likely i'd have to buy pre-made flints..

You do not have to use flint, you can use any siliceous rock, such as quartz or agate. A lot easier to find than percussion caps, & percussion caps can become corrupted. The reason the Mountain Men & Woodsmen in America kept to their flintlocks long after percussions were available, was because they were trustworthy, sustainable & versatile.

Advantages of a Flintlock Muzzle-loader.
1) Ammo is less expensive than a modern equivalent caliber firearm.
2) The smoothbore is very versatile, being able to digest round ball, bird shot, & buckshot, or any combination of two of these (can also use minies/conical slugs).
3) The fusil is lighter to carry than a modern equivalent sized gun.
4) You can vary the load if needs be.
5) The smoothbore will digest other projectiles besides lead.
6) Lead can be retrieved from downed game & remoulded with a simple mould & lead ladle. This means that you can carry less lead, & more of the lighter gunpowder.
7) You can make your own gunpowder.
8) You can use the lock to make fire without using gunpowder.
9) You can use gunpowder for gunpowder tinder fire lighting if needs be.
10) IF the lock should malfunction (these are very robust & it is not likely) you can easily repair it if you are carrying a few spare springs & a few simple tools.
11) If you do not have any spare parts & the lock malfunctions, you can easily convert it to a tinderlock or matchlock & continue using it.
12) You do not need a reloader, brass shells, caps, or primers. The latter have been known to break down in damp conditions or if they are stored for too long.
13) Wadding for ball or shot is available from natural plant materials or homemade leather or rawhide.
14) Less chance of being affected by future ammunition control legislation.
15) Gunpowder is easily obtainable providing you have a muzzle-loader registered in your name regardless of caliber (NSW).
16) A .32 caliber flintlock rifle is more powerful than a .22 rimfire, less expensive to feed, more accurate over a greater distance, able to take small & medium sized game, & other than not being able to use shot (unless it is smoothbore), it has all the attributes of the other flintlocks. For larger game you can load with conical slugs, which of course you can make yourself in the field.
17) Damage from a .62 caliber or .70 caliber pistol or long arm is in the extreme. Wounded prey is unlikely to escape.
18) By using buck & ball you are unlikely to miss your target. This load is capable of taking out more than one target.
19) There is less kick-back to a muzzle-loading gun.
20) Antique Flintlock muzzle-loading guns do not require a license, registration, or a permit to purchase in NSW Australia.
Keith.

 

[Optimist]

If you'll dig through the old references, quite a few of the early 1800s arms were shipped with both varieties of lock, and two barrels. Sawyer's book has quite a few photos of such.