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Everything in this thread can be applied to a single-barrel shotgun of 28-ga. or larger.

I don't shoot BP muzzleloaders anymore, but have a couple of single-barrel shotguns which I reload for, and I have BP muzzleloading adapters for 12-ga. which could substitute for cartridges if needed, as long as I had adequate caps or 209 sized primers (I have adapters for both).

But a well managed flinter can do amazing work.

I used one as a youngster, but no longer.

Is this what you use?

https://www.selfrelianceoutfitters.com/products/12-gauge-to-209-muzzle-loader-adapter


2 for a double barrel?

11B
 

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Not that exact one, but accomplishes the same thing.

I had my gunsmith purpose build a pair from stainless steel for me to use either 209 shotshell or No. 11 caps before these were commercially available. I only use them in my two H&R 12-ga.single-barrels. I also had one made to use 209 shotshell primers to fit a .45 Colt Handi Rifle so that I could alternately use that too as a muzzle loader with Lee R.E.A.L. and 40 grains of FFg. Also works using 209 shotshell primer and a 50-50 blend of Goex 2Fg and Red Dot using a 40-grain tube with a BP powder flask. Very clean burning and 1080 fps from the rifle. Your mileage may vary...
 

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Not that exact one, but accomplishes the same thing.

I had my gunsmith purpose build a pair from stainless steel for me to use either 209 shotshell or No. 11 caps before these were commercially available. I only use them in my two H&R 12-ga.single-barrels. I also had one made to use 209 shotshell primers to fit a .45 Colt Handi Rifle so that I could alternately use that too as a muzzle loader with Lee R.E.A.L. and 40 grains of FFg. Also works using 209 shotshell primer and a 50-50 blend of Goex 2Fg and Red Dot using a 40-grain tube with a BP powder flask. Very clean burning and 1080 fps from the rifle. Your mileage may vary...
Speaking of mileage, is there any reason why 2 of them would not work well in a break open double barrel 12ga ?

11B
 

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I have made my own gunpowder in the past, but I always have a good supply on hand. I have never found that I used a lot of gunpowder.
Yes I always make my own ball, & I can make shot, but again I have a good supply of bought bird shot.
In the Territory I mostly hunted buffalo, a buffalo last a long time. Occasionally though I would share the meat with another family who lived not too far away.
Range was usually point blank to 25 yards, I used to wait alongside a buffalo trail. Other game was wild boar, roo & geese.
Here in New England Rabbit, goat, roo & wild boar. I can stalk close enough to touch a wild animal so I hunt in close.
I have never counted my shots so I can't tell you how many shots per year. When you live like this you make your shots count, one shot kills.

I did not trap in the Territory, mostly open buffalo plains, creeks, water holes & scrub, so for the 10 years I was in the Territory I only hunted. After cyclone Tracey in 74 we moved out bush off grid & were off grid for about 5 years before moving to New England.
Keith.
I have lived like this, and why I brought it up.

Thanks for sharing.

I hunt year around and have for a few decades. ( Hogs, a few species of deer, and elk.) Point blank and on out past 500 yards.

Only hunted bison twice and wont again, as it was like shooting a cow.

Dumped 3 hogs last night inside inside of 6 seconds .

Took this pic from about 9 inches away via this Rocky mtn muley . (Stalk hunting is just as viable a hunting method as ambush hunting and hunting at distances over 300 yards. )


11B
 

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Speaking of mileage, is there any reason why 2 of them would not work well in a break open double barrel 12ga ?

11B
No reason other than I don't like the idea of firing one barrel and reloading it while the other is still charged. Carrying around a double gun with one shot in it is heavier than a single-barrel. I suppose you could always pull the cap or primer from the loaded barrel and then safely reload the other, but it seems a nuisance.
 

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There have been a few of the swivel breech ML that came apart because the first shot allowed the patch/ball to pull away from the charge. Make sure you have a really good tight fit.
 

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Still can't find any advantage compared to simply loading 12ga shells with BP. ( Shot or slug)

Thoughts?

Other than current sport hunting , a comparison with any modern firearm of quality chambered in a full on rifle cartridge is not even close.

11B
 

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Breechloader V Muzzleloader

Still can't find any advantage compared to simply loading 12ga shells with BP. ( Shot or slug)

Thoughts?

Other than current sport hunting , a comparison with any modern firearm of quality chambered in a full on rifle cartridge is not even close.

11B
The advantage of a flintlock muzzle-loading gun over a breechloader is that a flintlock does not need primers & you do not have to carry the extra weight & volume of cartridges. Even if the lock springs were to break on a flintlock, it is an easy matter to convert it into a matchlock & continue using it.


Yes, despite popular belief, I do own & use breech-loading firearms.
Advantages of a Flintlock Muzzle-loader.
1) Ammo is less expensive than a modern equivalent caliber firearm.
2) The smoothbore is very versatile, being able to digest round ball, bird shot, & buckshot, or any combination of two of these (can also use minies/conical slugs).
3) The fusil is lighter to carry than a modern equivalent sized gun.
4) You can vary the load if needs be.
5) The smoothbore will digest other projectiles besides lead.
6) Lead can be retrieved from downed game & remoulded with a simple mould & lead ladle. This means that you can carry less lead, & more of the lighter gunpowder.
7) You can make your own gunpowder.
8) You can use the lock to make fire without using gunpowder.
9) You can use gunpowder for gunpowder tinder fire lighting if needs be.
10) IF the lock should malfunction (these are very robust & it is not likely) you can easily repair it if you are carrying a few spare springs & a few simple tools.
11) If you do not have any spare parts & the lock malfunctions, you can easily convert it to a tinderlock or matchlock & continue using it.
12) You do not need a reloader, brass shells, caps, or primers. The latter have been known to break down in damp conditions or if they are stored for too long.
13) Wadding for ball or shot is available from natural plant materials or homemade leather or rawhide.
14) Less chance of being affected by future ammunition control legislation.
15) Gunpowder is easily obtainable providing you have a muzzle-loader registered in your name regardless of caliber (NSW).
16) A .32 caliber flintlock rifle is more powerful than a .22 rimfire, less expensive to feed, more accurate over a greater distance, able to take small & medium sized game, & other than not being able to use shot (unless it is smoothbore), it has all the attributes of the other flintlocks. For larger game you can load with conical slugs, which of course you can make yourself in the field.
17) Damage from a .62 caliber or .70 caliber pistol or long arm is in the extreme. Wounded prey is unlikely to escape.
18) By using buck & ball you are unlikely to miss your target. This load is capable of taking out more than one target.
19) There is less kick-back to a muzzle-loading gun.
20) Antique Flintlock muzzle-loading guns do not require a license, registration, or a permit to purchase in NSW Australia.

Keith
 

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The advantage of a flintlock muzzle-loading gun over a breechloader is that a flintlock does not need primers & you do not have to carry the extra weight & volume of cartridges. Even if the lock springs were to break on a flintlock, it is an easy matter to convert it into a matchlock & continue using it.


Yes, despite popular belief, I do own & use breech-loading firearms.
Loading 12 Gauge Brass Cartridges with Black Powder By Keith H Burgess Part one - YouTube
Loading 12 Gauge Brass Cartridges with Black Powder by Keith H Burgess PART TWO - YouTube
Loading 12 Gauge Brass Cartridges with Black Powder By Keith H Burgess PART THREE FINAL - YouTube
Advantages of a Flintlock Muzzle-loader.
1) Ammo is less expensive than a modern equivalent caliber firearm.
2) The smoothbore is very versatile, being able to digest round ball, bird shot, & buckshot, or any combination of two of these (can also use minies/conical slugs).
3) The fusil is lighter to carry than a modern equivalent sized gun.
4) You can vary the load if needs be.
5) The smoothbore will digest other projectiles besides lead.
6) Lead can be retrieved from downed game & remoulded with a simple mould & lead ladle. This means that you can carry less lead, & more of the lighter gunpowder.
7) You can make your own gunpowder.
8) You can use the lock to make fire without using gunpowder.
9) You can use gunpowder for gunpowder tinder fire lighting if needs be.
10) IF the lock should malfunction (these are very robust & it is not likely) you can easily repair it if you are carrying a few spare springs & a few simple tools.
11) If you do not have any spare parts & the lock malfunctions, you can easily convert it to a tinderlock or matchlock & continue using it.
12) You do not need a reloader, brass shells, caps, or primers. The latter have been known to break down in damp conditions or if they are stored for too long.
13) Wadding for ball or shot is available from natural plant materials or homemade leather or rawhide.
14) Less chance of being affected by future ammunition control legislation.
15) Gunpowder is easily obtainable providing you have a muzzle-loader registered in your name regardless of caliber (NSW).
16) A .32 caliber flintlock rifle is more powerful than a .22 rimfire, less expensive to feed, more accurate over a greater distance, able to take small & medium sized game, & other than not being able to use shot (unless it is smoothbore), it has all the attributes of the other flintlocks. For larger game you can load with conical slugs, which of course you can make yourself in the field.
17) Damage from a .62 caliber or .70 caliber pistol or long arm is in the extreme. Wounded prey is unlikely to escape.
18) By using buck & ball you are unlikely to miss your target. This load is capable of taking out more than one target.
19) There is less kick-back to a muzzle-loading gun.
20) Antique Flintlock muzzle-loading guns do not require a license, registration, or a permit to purchase in NSW Australia.

Keith
I just wanted to say thank you directly for your post above. Very informative and took some time to put together.

Well done sir.

I also now realize that you are talking about Austraila, so your buffalo = different than our buffalo. Feral pigs are feral pigs....lol.

Also....You are talking about more than one firearm here.

I respectfully disagree with some of your points above, but it might be different if I lived where you do.

Example: Where I live, there are much less restrictions concerning how much modern ammunition one can store, semiautomatic firearms, gunpowder.

Then there are things that I am unsure of. ( Effective range/ accuracy from the 32cal firearm you mentioned vs 22lr.

I can share mine however and you can use the info to compare.

TCR22 semiautomatic rimfire rifle.

Dry weight = 4.3 lbs
Overall length = 35 inches
Ammo weight = .75 lbs per 100 rds
Adjustable iron sights
Integrated optics rail over receiver.
Virtually 0 felt recoil.
10 to 25rd magazine capacity.
VERY quiet using can and subsonic ammunition. ( Recurve bows make more noise)
Most importantly........Well over 100k rds stockpiled
Ammo has proven to work after being submersed in salt water for over 3 hours, frozen solid and allowed to thaw out, and fodder stored for over 50 years.

Add 8.3 more ounces ( Leupold VX Freedom 1.5x4x20mm scope with AR reticle, and consistent head shots vs tree rats out to 50 yards can be achieved.

Just my opinion, but I would rather have this rifle for security than a single shot muzzle loader.

11B
 

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NOT for home security.

I just wanted to say thank you directly for your post above. Very informative and took some time to put together.

Well done sir.

I also now realize that you are talking about Austraila, so your buffalo = different than our buffalo. Feral pigs are feral pigs....lol.

Also....You are talking about more than one firearm here.

I respectfully disagree with some of your points above, but it might be different if I lived where you do.

Example: Where I live, there are much less restrictions concerning how much modern ammunition one can store, semiautomatic firearms, gunpowder.

Then there are things that I am unsure of. ( Effective range/ accuracy from the 32cal firearm you mentioned vs 22lr.

I can share mine however and you can use the info to compare.

TCR22 semiautomatic rimfire rifle.

Dry weight = 4.3 lbs
Overall length = 35 inches
Ammo weight = .75 lbs per 100 rds
Adjustable iron sights
Integrated optics rail over receiver.
Virtually 0 felt recoil.
10 to 25rd magazine capacity.
VERY quiet using can and subsonic ammunition. ( Recurve bows make more noise)
Most importantly........Well over 100k rds stockpiled
Ammo has proven to work after being submersed in salt water for over 3 hours, frozen solid and allowed to thaw out, and fodder stored for over 50 years.

Add 8.3 more ounces ( Leupold VX Freedom 1.5x4x20mm scope with AR reticle, and consistent head shots vs tree rats out to 50 yards can be achieved.

Just my opinion, but I would rather have this rifle for security than a single shot muzzle loader.

11B
As I stated in my post, I have & use breech loading guns & rifles. BUT, if I had to leave my forest home for any reason & move further into the wilderness alone, & I could only carry one gun, then I choose to carry a flintlock.
Keith.
 

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...so the question is.. do you take a smooth bore with good enough accuracy, easier cleaning, and the option to use shot for things like turkey and waterfowl... or do you go with the rifled barrel for even better accuracy?
The mountain men of the 1820-50 period typically carried both rifle and smoothbore tubes. The smoothbore was a lot faster to reload than the rifle, and in the kind of close up fracas that those guys got into with the native folk that was considerable advantage....
 

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The mountain men typically carried both rifle and smoothbore !

The mountain men of the 1820-50 period typically carried both rifle and smoothbore tubes. The smoothbore was a lot faster to reload than the rifle, and in the kind of close up fracas that those guys got into with the native folk that was considerable advantage....
Very interesting, I have not heard of that before. Do you still have the link to the primary documentation Optimist?
Keith.
 

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There are half a dozen sites with accounts of those men's lives, from their own journals.

http://mtmen.org/mtman/mmarch.html

http://www.over-land.com/diaries.html

Then there are several dozen more books and cites drawn from the books I've collected over the years. I found that information in more than one place, along with the cut down musket, or squaw gun carried across the saddle bows.

https://www.johnjhayeshistoricalcollectibles.com/proddetail.php?prod=d24

This site referred to it as a 'blanket gun'.
 

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REPORT OF THE PIONEER SOCIETY OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN

A TRIP FROM DETROIT TO THE SAGINAW VALLEY OVER FIFTY YEARS AGO. BY WM. R. McCORMICK, OF BAY CITY.

"We met an Indian here who had thirty-seven ducks in his canoe which he had killed with seven shots with a squaw gun, with flint lock, as percussion locks had not been introduced amongst the Indians. If my readers do not know what a squaw gun is, I will tell them. It is a gun made and given to the Indians by the British government years ago, as compensation as allies in the war of 1812, with other presents, blankets, etc., until the United States put a stop to it, which I think was in 1834 or ’35. This squaw gun, as it was called, consisted of a single barrel, flint lock and beech stock, very roughly made, and cost from $3 to $5, and there was about as much danger behind one as in front."
 

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REPORT OF THE PIONEER SOCIETY OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN

A TRIP FROM DETROIT TO THE SAGINAW VALLEY OVER FIFTY YEARS AGO. BY WM. R. McCORMICK, OF BAY CITY.

"We met an Indian here who had thirty-seven ducks in his canoe which he had killed with seven shots with a squaw gun, with flint lock, as percussion locks had not been introduced amongst the Indians. If my readers do not know what a squaw gun is, I will tell them. It is a gun made and given to the Indians by the British government years ago, as compensation as allies in the war of 1812, with other presents, blankets, etc., until the United States put a stop to it, which I think was in 1834 or ’35. This squaw gun, as it was called, consisted of a single barrel, flint lock and beech stock, very roughly made, and cost from $3 to $5, and there was about as much danger behind one as in front."
Accurate description, from my experience of such items. Most of 'em were cut short, to about horse pistol length.
 

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Thank You.

Nice videos Keith, watched and subbed. I like your post vise re-loading setup. I'm not a re-loader yet but may give it a try one day. I bought a second post leg vise a few days ago but don't have it mounted yet: https://www.survivalistboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=296942&d=1580473109
Thank you for subscribing to my channel Major Mjolnir, very much appreciated. Yes I love the post vise, I use it more than the bench vise. You are very luck to have two, I have not seen any at the markets for sale.
Regards, Keith.
 

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69 caliber smooth bore

The 69 caliber smooth bore musket was the most prevalent weapon used by both sides in the civil war.

The cartages were made up in advance.

They resembled a cigar and contained a 69 caliber ball , three buckshot and the powder.

To load , you tore off the powder end of the brown paper wrapper and rammed it all down the barrel with the ram rod .

A cap was placed on the nipple and at 100 yards, you could hit the man you were aiming at and possibly the man to his right and left.

A solder was required to be able to fire three rounds per minuet.

It was also fitted with a long spike bayonet. and a steel but plate to deliver a death blow from either end.

I have the musket my great, great grandfather brought home with him from the war.
 

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As I stated in my post, I have & use breech loading guns & rifles. BUT, if I had to leave my forest home for any reason & move further into the wilderness alone, & I could only carry one gun, then I choose to carry a flintlock.
Keith.

I look at things a bit different. ( For better or worse...lol)
Pray for the best and prepare for the worst mentality, and as it pertains to firearms as well.
( In my line of work, I have seen the darker side of humanity, and being actively hunted by armed humans while hunting them at the same time is an eye opener, and one reason why a flintlock is out of the picture.)

In other words, the primary reason for firearms = security. Hunting is secondary.

1. Haven't ever had any issues with damp primers. ( Always use primer/ bullet sealant, unless ammo is already sealed, and have run a few evaluations with loaded ammo by putting rounds running streams, filthy ponds, salt water marsh, and frozen solid via weeks at a time. ( LC M80, M852, R1M1, into ercial hunting ammo, and reloads) All of it went bang when it was supposed to.

2. Have been a life long hunter, and hunt year around . With that said, I have not always " did my part". Stuff happens ( list is too long to type here). The capability to make a decisive follow on shot in rapid order has proven to be a benefit. ( Manual action and especially a semiauto. )

3. Used to be an avid shotgunner, Don't have a use for one any longer, and have taken multiple pigs with one shot. ( We call them " 2 fers " here....) More important, if multiple critters need in the dirt ( survival by eating them , and/ or survival by eradicating them), so 10-20 rd magus come in handy.

4. I want 3 times the effective range a muzzle loader of any type can produce via long term and places where others might be that can't hunt but are armed themselves and getting desperate.( Less wasted calories vs stalking, overwatch, withdrawal under pressure, retrieving a downed critter under pressure, bait, etc.....)

5 . Running out of ammo always seems to surface regarding modern ammo . In fact, that = a logistics issue, which can be solved via proper preparation. ( Cache program, storing some with friends/ family, pack animals, etc.....)
Another example: In a perfect world, I can feed 4 adult humans elk for 4 years using one loaded 20rd magazine ( 308) . In a not so perfect world, I can feed 4 of them for 1 year and have 15rds left in magazine to post security while they are dressing the elk out, and preserving the meat.
If you were the one guttin that elk, would you rather have me watchin your back with a muzzle gun or an M14?

6. 308 win: Loaded ammo weight. ( 5.25 to 5.3 lbs per 100 rds depending on actual load.)
All about logistics, as one of our several pack animals can carry enough to feed 4 until they are so sick of meat they switch to tree bark.....lol) 3k rds / uneven rocky terrain, dry, wet, snow, ice, sea level on up past 8k feet.

7. Can also make black powder in field, only there is no need to use it for rifle ammunition.

8. Have one rifle alone with round count of well over 50k, and hasn't broke yet, but have an emergency spare parts kit for it regardless.....and a " spare" rifle.
.
9. My rifle is much easier to utilize with one hand vs muzzle guns...... in the event the other becomes injured. ( I carry a suppressed 22lr handgun that is much easier to use than my rifle.

10.Only ever fired one flintlock a few times before, but it made enough smoke for Ray Charles to know where the shot came from , and did not want to fire at all while it was raining.

11. Modern rifles can also shoot projectiles made out of something other than lead. You don't need reloading equipment either, once your ammo is loaded.

12. Terminal effects: ( Shot placement is a given), and I prefer exit wounds in case it ain't a given.....lol.
One 168gr 30cal projectile launched from a 308 win case thru a 18.5in Criterion chrome lined tube will smash right thru bambi or porky
easily enough.
( 2610 fps velocity with 2540 ft lbs of energy at 25yd impact/ 2125 fps velocity with 1685 ft lbs of energy via a 300 yard impact seems to be plenty) .......if I do my part in terms of choosing the right bullet for the species to be hunted. ( So far......Native/ non native species of deer, coydogs, feral pigs, rabbit, turkey, raccoon, armadillo, pronghorn antelope, bear, wolf, grouse, elk, moose, bison)

13. One gun in a perfect world? Nope...I would just go to Hooters. ( Not really...lol)
If I had to pick one long gun and head off into an unknown situation ( wilderness to urban jungle) , it would be the rifle in below pic next to the TCR22, and as many trusted/ armed buddies willing to go with me. ( It might he a coincidence, but that is what the 4 of us are doing right now.....lol.

11B
 

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Spare rifle might as well go for a ride too. ( Very old pic and right after my first attempt at parkerise with brand new paint job for stock/ HG

Literally for a ride on one of our pack animals like the one shown here.
Btw. .....The horses are doing fine this past week. ( Temps down to 44 below and 8k feet + above sea level.)

11B
 

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