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Home Defense Ammo - PDX1 vs 00 Buckshot

12K views 137 replies 35 participants last post by  Rural Buckeye Guy 
#1 ·
Over the last year or so, I've been tweaking my home defense shotgun to determine the best set up for my situation. Along with the configuration of the gun, I've also considered various ammo types and evaluated them based on spread, velocity, and knockdown power. Recently, I picked up some of Winchester's PDX1 Defender rounds (three 00 buckshot BB's and a 1 oz slug) and ran it head to head against the tried and true 00 buckshot round. Check out my video to see the range test I conducted:



Long story short, a compelling case can be made for the PDX1 Defender shells instead of buckshot. The pattern is consistent (and a hair wider than standard buckshot), the knockdown power is significant, and the cost is reasonable ($2.50 per round). Even if a bad guy only get's hit with one of the four projectiles, it's likely going to cause the perp to reconsider advancing their attack on you, as one 00 BB is equivalent to a 9mm round. A con for this round is that the three buckshot BB's are plated, thus, there's a slight risk of over penetration due to the lack of round deformation. I don't think that's a deal breaker for me, but to some it might be.

Just wanted to post a review about this semi-new type of shotgun load for those who haven't heard about it. It's getting fairly popular and has been out for about a decade.

Thought's on it's viability for home defense?
 
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#2 ·
I have yet to test it in 12 gauge. I did some testing in 410 and was unimpressed, but with a 12 gauge there’s a lot more wiggle room.

For tactical applications like LE, Military, or home defense, I like the update to the old fashioned “Buck and Ball” concept. For me at this point in time, I am sticking to #4 Buckshot in my shotgun, specifically because I live in an apartment and collateral damage is a major concern. However, once I get my “house on the hill” I will certainly revisit the PDX1.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Over the last year or so, I've been tweaking my home defense shotgun to determine the best set up for my situation. Along with the configuration of the gun, I've also considered various ammo types and evaluated them based on spread, velocity, and knockdown power. Recently, I picked up some of Winchester's PDX1 Defender rounds (three 00 buckshot BB's and a 1 oz slug) and ran it head to head against the tried and true 00 buckshot round. Check out my video to see the range test I conducted:



Long story short, a compelling case can be made for the PDX1 Defender shells instead of buckshot. The pattern is consistent (and a hair wider than standard buckshot), the knockdown power is significant, and the cost is reasonable ($2.50 per round). Even if a bad guy only get's hit with one of the four projectiles, it's likely going to cause the perp to reconsider advancing their attack on you, as one 00 BB is equivalent to a 9mm round. A con for this round is that the three buckshot BB's are plated, thus, there's a slight risk of over penetration due to the lack of round deformation. I don't think that's a deal breaker for me, but to some it might be.

Just wanted to post a review about this semi-new type of shotgun load for those who haven't heard about it. It's getting fairly popular and has been out for about a decade.

Thought's on it's viability for home defense?
Plated buckshot reduces flyers. I’m not sure I’d be so concerned about any resulting increased penetration. There was a nice article years ago in a military magazine ( as in published by or for DOD, no SOF) comparing plated and unplated buckshot, with and without buffering. Definitely showed a serious edge for buffered, plated shot.

I wouldn’t consider a 00 buck to be equivalent to a 9mm. Weight is less than half that of a standard 9mm, crossectional area is about 20% less, but muzzle velocity is much higher in standard (non tactical) loading.

if the slug has a dependable POI ( gonna have to watch the video) it sounds pretty attractive. Cost ( if those were prices from 2 years ago) isn’t that much worse than federal premium ($1/rd)

BTW, years ago,fresh out of college, I bought a scattergun technologies shotgun at the factory in Nashville . My first gun with ghost rings. I bought a sleeve of slugs at Walmart. So I stuck a 2x4 piece of plywood on a 10” pine tree and proceeded to sight the ghost rings in. On about round 20 I heard a creak, and the pine tree came crashing down. Really got some respect for full power slugs.
 
#5 ·
buy a box of PDX and load up your 12g everyday home defense shotgun - sure - Why not?

but - are you seriously considering any kind of stockpiling? >>> this is a prepper conversation forum and 00Buck will do nicely in a SHTF situation where quantity overwhelming overrides some little extra edge ....

if you have a 20g like most of us do - probably recommend a few boxes of the PDX loads - best you can do is #3Buck without getting into magnums - have it ready for some secondary defense duty if necessary ....

using a .410 for defense? - get a couple boxes of cheap slugs and call it a day ...
 
#7 · (Edited)
Great video, thanks. I feel like there's a lot of fads that come and go to sell guns and ammo, and this is one of them. Another trend is trying to reduce the size of buckshot patterns in defensive loads. I can understand a need for that in someone else's situation, but I want the exact opposite from my HD shotgun. I'd love a garbage can lid sized pattern at 30 feet if I could get it. If I want a super tight pattern I'll shoot a slug.
 
#10 ·
IF YOU are contemplating it as a home defense round.. why do you need either of them?
Inside a standard sized room in a standard sized house, ANY 12 ga round will perform admirably.
At 10-12 feet a 7 1/2 won't open any more than a 00 buck load and you will not have the potential issue of over-penetrating the target. AND, I can guarantee they will put someone down. I responded to a potential robber who was dusted by a Browning sweet 16 with a skeet load at 20 feet in a restaurant. It was just one large rathole... with no exit. So any 12 ga load will work fine.

IF you are using it inside the house, a slug??? Really??? do you want to kill someone three rooms away after it smokes through the BG? OR, if you live in a tight neighborhood where the houses are close together, you could exit your house and do damage next door. It has happened.

Just throw'n it out there.
 
#11 ·
Both are devastating, and will ruin the recipients' day. My general rule for a scatter gun is if you worry about over penetration, drop the size of pellets to #4. Maybe even birdshot to fully mitigate overpenetration in special situations (apartment dwellers, kids in adjacent rooms, etc.). (Please spare me the arguments, I've studied them all.) If you have less overpenetration concerns or live/travel in rural areas PDX1 and slugs are welcomed ideas. The benefit of the foster slug is, of course, accuracy at longer ranges where buck is not effective. The PDX1 bridges that gap well, giving benefits of range and patterned spreads to assure hits.
 
#12 ·
Thanks for a nicely done and informative video!

I like the PDX 1 and have a good supply of them. I bought them some years ago when they were much cheaper.

Not for any scientific reasons and probably just because I'm old fashioned, I load 00 buck in the tube and chamber of my HD shotgun and keep three slugs and three PDX 1's in the sidesaddle. Always near the gun is a 25 rd belt/bandolier with a mix of PDX 1's, slugs and buck in case I get invaded by a horde of zombies and I feel I might need a few more rounds [emoji3]


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#13 ·
This is nothing more than what our Colonials used against the British in our war of Independence. It was a buck and ball load. They loaded a patched round ball into a smoothbore and dropped in three .00 or similar buck shot pellets. The load was then topped off with some form of wadding that varied from cotton to wasp nest material. Very effective in those times and the British protested vehemently as they thought it was against their rules of warfare.

The significance to all this is not much has changed. Were still using .12 ga slugs that was very common several hundred years ago. Were still adding the extra surprise of a few buckshot. A lot of folks think this is some new genius idea. It is, just from several hundred years ago from some very bright Patriots. They figured out how to level the playing field against what was at the time the most powerful Army and Navy on the planet and sent them packing licking their wounds.
 
#26 ·
Over penetration is the big one for me also. I have Fiocchi low recoil 9 pellet 12 ga rounds loaded up in 20" barrel 870 I repurposed to HD with Rem Tab conversion and mag extension from Wingmaster hunting gun. But also have #2 and even would use bird shot. Paul Harrell has good videos on bird sot and his meat target that most have probably seen if you have researched at all, they are very interesting.

 
#18 ·
As long as you test a load in YOUR shotgun, and it patterns reliably, go with it. That is, #4 buck or larger. Nobody should be fielding bird shot in a defensive firearm. I hate that I even have to say that, with the wealth of knowledge open to everyone at their finger tips. What happens when it's through auto glass? What if they are partially behind a door? What if they are beyond 20 yards? Bird shot is a crappy choice for a shotgun. Period.

Loads like the PDX1 are a over complicated answer to a simple problem. Other than costing 4X a conventional load, what can it do better than a 00 load or a slug? Nobody walks away from a 1 oz slug. Will it make them more deader? It's a fancy round designed to wow people into spending money.
 
#19 · (Edited)
As long as you test a load in YOUR shotgun, and it patterns reliably, go with it. That is, #4 buck or larger. Nobody should be fielding bird shot in a defensive firearm. I hate that I even have to say that, with the wealth of knowledge open to everyone at their finger tips. What happens when it's through auto glass? What if they are partially behind a door? What if they are beyond 20 yards? Bird shot is a crappy choice for a shotgun. Period.

Loads like the PDX1 are a over complicated answer to a simple problem. Other than costing 4X a conventional load, what can it do better than a 00 load or a slug? Nobody walks away from a 1 oz slug. Will it make them more deader? It's a fancy round designed to wow people into spending money.
False.
Do you have a lot of auto glass in your home? Doubtful.

Do you have anything close to a 20 yard lawful defensive shot inside your home? That's 60 feet. I doubt it. Further, the spread on any buckshot at 60 feet is probably pushing its safe usefulness.

Birdshot is lethal behind a common household hollow core door. So if your perp jumps behind a household door, it won't stop birdshot. But your kids 3 walls over will thank you.

And, the POINT of birdshot in a HOME DEFENSE situation is so you don't murder an innocent person 5 walls away and go to prison.

Nobody walks away from a 1 oz slug.
This might include the old neighbor lady 4 houses away peacefully watching her late night television, that your slug hit after going thru 9 walls...

I shouldn't have to spell that out, knowledge open to everyone at their finger tips.
 
#20 ·
Personally, I shoot 00 to get some spread at range. If you want a tight group hard hitter, just use a standard slug.

On my PD shotties I have two slugs and the rest 00 buck.

The slugs are for range, if I have to shoot through a door, stop a car advancing on my place, etc. The shot is for pretty much anything else in shotty range.
 
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#24 ·
You aren't likely to survive or stay in the fight with a birdshot hit at typical HD distances of under 15'. That lead is acting like a slug (e.g. a cut slug) at that range. It's absolutely lethal, and is going to convince the perp this was a bad plan.

I'm fully convinced it's one of the most useful and effective affordable urban defense tools where it's fully lethal at close range, and almost harmless at longer range or thru a handful of walls.

Don't be afraid of education.
 
#25 ·
While I'm not one who uses birdshot as a combat load, I agree it can certainly is effective in the confines of a home or around it. It does have it's drawbacks but so does using slugs or buckshot. When people speak of "Birdshot" there is a whole lot of latitude in shot size and weights. Add into the mix the powder charge and shot cup. You can quickly come up with a load that is very lethal even at decent ranges that hold a very tight group.

I believe the best way to deal with much of this is a lot of quality training with your shotgun and making sure you know what and where your target is. That video was interesting to watch. The thing I wish they did is better simulate a wall. The addition of plaster over the drywall and insulation in the middle to better simulate most American stick built homes would have certainly yielded different results.
 
#28 ·
While I'm not one who uses birdshot as a combat load, I agree it can certainly is effective in the confines of a home or around it. It does have it's drawbacks but so does using slugs or buckshot. When people speak of "Birdshot" there is a whole lot of latitude in shot size and weights. Add into the mix the powder charge and shot cup. You can quickly come up with a load that is very lethal even at decent ranges that hold a very tight group.

I believe the best way to deal with much of this is a lot of quality training with your shotgun and making sure you know what and where your target is. That video was interesting to watch. The thing I wish they did is better simulate a wall. The addition of plaster over the drywall and insulation in the middle to better simulate most American stick built homes would have certainly yielded different results.

FROM PARTAKING on the construction of LOTS of homes, ONLY the outside walls are insulated unless specifically requested by the homeowner during the construction phase, so the connecting wall to bedrooms, living rooms, etc will not be insulated.

2nd- Plaster? Unless the house was built in the 40s or earlier no one has built a house using lathe and plaster. Drywall was the replacement starting in 1916 and finally became the standard replacement about 30 years later.

and I have never seen anyone plaster on top of drywall, it kind of defeats the who purpose of the drywall unless you are into those wavy rough wall effects that rip your skin up if you brush up against it.

BUt, I can tell you from having seen dozens of birdshot shootings inside houses that they ALL are very effective at putting people down and making a real mess of them.
In fact, other than police shotgun shootings, in all my years ghetto hunting I only can remember just one time someone shot someone else with 00 buck, and that was at contact wound distance to the stomach, so, it really didn't matter what was used at that range.
 
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#31 ·
Across a bedroom, 7 1/2's will more than likely work just fine. But yes, a larger person, or an angled shot through a shoulder, etc., could result in not stopping someone who was determined, and it happens. Rat hole wounds are ugly, but don't magically always work if something important isn't perforated.

Federal used to make a personal defense load of #2 plated, hardened shot, that actually made 12" penetration +/-. It bridged the gap somewhat between birdshot and buckshot, but it's long discontinued. I'm sure some duck or goose loads would work similarly.
 
#34 ·
there is a continuum of shot sizes from #4 to T to BBB and up. Difference betweenT and 4 BS is about the same as between #1 and #3. If I were a patrol officer I’d want the best patterning large buckshot I would get. Using hi velocity bird shot at 10 yards would scare me. Being a Homeowner is a different situation. I have a hard time envisioning a situation happening now where I would engage outside my house with a shotgun. Riots wouldn’t make it this far, and I can’t imagine a armed assault by a drug cartel.

during the start of COVID, when no one with him a brain knew what was going to happen, I put a keltec in the top drawer of my chest of drawers ( which serves as a night stand.). One tube of #6 pheasant loads, one tube of federal premium 00 buckshot, switch set to feed #6 pheasant. I don’t feel under armed, and I’m not kicking my daughter out of the house to get a clear field of fire.

I’m probally better than most as all my bedroom walls ( both sides of interior walls, outside walls, and in all the bedrooms.) are 5/8 type X Sheetrock.
 
#38 ·
I don't have a lot of post on THIS website, but I do on other gun boards. I have extensive ballistics knowledge over the last 20 years.

Birdshot, except in extremely limited scenarios, should NEVER be used or recommended for defensive use.

The FBI uses 12-18 inches for a very important reason. Birdshot will never penetrate that deep.

Bullets/projectiles can stop felonious attackers in three different ways. Psychological, blood loss, and central nervous system damage.

Birdshot can only reliably stop a person via the psychological means (ouch I've been shot, I think I will sit down here and wait for an ambulance). It lacks penetration to reach for central nervous system damage usually (spine/brain) and usually lacks enough penetration to reach arteries for fast blood loss.

There are numerous dead cops, that are now dead, because they had birdshot loaded in their shotguns. Had they had proper self defense ammo in their guns, they might still be alive.

DO NOT depend on a psychological stop! There are literally hundreds/thousands of cases of injured people continuing to attack. People are either high on drugs/alcohol, or suicidal, and don't care that they have been injured. They will continue their attack until you are dead, because they are in that frame of mind.

Here is a very simple scenario for you. You are recently divorced, back in the dating pool. You have a new girlfriend. She is sleeping at your house, when her drunk/deranged and suicidal ex boyfriend kicks in your door. He cant live without her, and he has decided that he will kill you, kill her, and then kill himself. He doesn't care if he dies. Its his intention. You shoot him with 7.5 birdshot load in the stomach from 13 feet away. It has not reached any vitals. Its a superficial wound. It might kill him in a few hours, but you don't have a few hours. You have seconds. He CAN and WILL continue advancing on you and attacking you with his weapon of choice, until you are dead, or he is dead. Wounding ammo such as birdshot will not save you in this situation.

Sure we can all agree that birdshot wounds can look gruesome, but without deep penetration, they look gross but a determined attacker can fight through the pain.

If you care about yourself and your loved ones, you would use a projectile that penetrates deeper than bird shot. #4 buckshot is a good compromise load.
 
#40 ·
JUST OUT of curiosity

How many shootings have you ACTUALLY been to to see first hand the results of the weapons used along with the environment where it happened and the responses of the parties involved?
or
are your 20 years of extensive ballistics studies based upon the writings of others? I think it is a fair question.

As for the FBI... maybe they have changed, but when I had interactions with them for over 20 years I can tell you what they taught and looked at the world..well I was not that impressed.
Way back when the FBI was going to put on a firing seminar for the dept.
and
one of the things they stressed was the use of #4 buck for a myriad of reasons. .. including better hit probability of something hitting because there are more pellets.
and
I asked the question "OK, but at what range have you found that pellets will start missing the intended target"? The FBI INSTRUCTOR said "It doesn't matter if some miss because you are bound to hit with some of them."
To which I responded "No, that is not the question. What I want to know is at what range will you know some of those pellets will fly by the intended targets and keep singing down range and take granny with her stroller or Timmy off his BigWheel? I don't know about the FBI but we are kind of held responsible for what happens on the other side of the shot"
The FBI INSTRUCTOR got this strange look and said "No one has ever asked that question or raised that issue before, and to answer your question..I don't know."

We were doing a joint task force raid and I saw a new agent I was with take a position of cover where he was resting his arms on the hood of a car pointing his pistol at the area we were covering. I pulled him away from his firing point and literally dragged him to a different position and told him to STAY!. Later as he was getting sorted out he asked WTF was that about? I asked him what he was doing, he said he was taught to use the engine and wheel to protect him from incoming fire. I told him that taking a position OVER the hood extended his kill zone by about 4 feet, BECAUSE the average pistol round will skip off a car hood and so even a short round will skid into his upper torso. I know this because one of our officers killed a guy in a shootout by having his short round skip off the car hood and take the guy through the heart. We also demonstrated it on one of our yearly BIG range days where we had junk cars pulled in and just about everything in the inventory was tried by officers. We could regularly skip rounds off the hood .

THEN
of course we had the great show they put on in Miami that one fateful day. How did all their training and tactics work out for them that day?

The FBI is a good agency for a lot of things having to do with compiling numbers and patterns and such.
I never found one I would want to go through a door with.
 
#42 ·
Saying "I've seen people killed with birdshot" is reverse survivorship bias - of course you have, and the ones you've been exposed to are obviously DOA or close to it, or they'd likely not be on scene anymore by the time you arrive, so I'm sure that experience has left a pretty deep impression on your decision making. But nobody here has claimed it won't kill, and your anecdotes are not relevant to the point we're making that birdshot doesn't typically penetrate sufficiently to reach the vitals and stop the fight unless they'd be inclined to stop the fight regardless of what they get shot with. That's not something one should rely upon for planning purposes on principle alone.

They don't have to be behind a barricade for this to become an issue, if the guy is pointing a pistol at me and I hit his outstretched forearm while aiming center mass, whatever I hit him with had better go clear through that arm and still have enough energy left to reach his vitals. Birdshot typically does not.

Overpenetration and a miss hitting a bystander is no less of a concern in any other situation, including your day to day life where presumably you carry a sidearm, but nobody advocates carrying ammunition that penetrates something like 6" in a handgun for the safety of everyone else involved, even though it can certainly kill, for good reason. Overpenetration is a concern, but it should not override the primary concern which is to stop the fight (particularly since the threat may well be shooting in the home too), and appropriate mitigation would involve finding a load with adequate but not excessive penetration (here we clearly diverge), being aware of your fields of fire, and understanding that nothing you do here will completely eliminate the risk.

You're clearly very invested in your conclusions, so I won't try and change your mind, but please understand that us criticizing those conclusions is not tantamount to us criticizing you.
 
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