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Comic, not your lawyer!
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Discussing this on a another forum, I remembered this video. A kid shot from 10 feet away in the arm, then directly in the chest, and then a grazing head wound, with #6 shot. Messed him up, but remained conscious and walked out of the hospital in a week. If this guy was drugged up, or had any bad intention, he absolutely would have been able to return fire in a defensive situation. Skip to 2:00 for shooting.

I think you should reassess.

The ARM hit nearly took his arm off, and sent him into shock. That's basically what you'd expect from any ARM hit from any major caliber, including slugs or buck. "Did you shoot me?" That's shock. A non-shock response would have been ducking, running away. A rational response.

The CHEST hit dropped him on the spot. Out of the fight. Had that been the first hit, same result. In and out of consciousness and blackout. Massive blood loss. Confusion. Near death. Was carted off in an ambulance after wandering around a bit. Massive injuries, and PRONOUNCED DEAD ON ARRIVAL!!! While not an instant kill, out of the fight. And dead within short time if no trauma care. Required HEART SURGERY, and surgery to arm and head. FIVE DAYS in recovery.

Sounds like a darn good compromise for a very effective short range self defense round, while excellent mitigation for OVER-PENETRATION. Do you still not get this second point?

This was an excellent video. One I'd seen long ago, but nice to see it again. So, thanks for proving my point. I'm convinced you don't know ballistics, medical, trauma, realistic self defense at close range, firearm injury potential, etc.
 

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Comic, not your lawyer!
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It was a example. Thouands of people die from the .22 LR. Are you advocating .22 for defensive use?
What does this have to do with the original topic? Just trying to be argumentative?

Apparently it's killed thousands of people, so why would it not be an effective self defense round?

Is it ideal? No.
Would it be a legit round to defend oneself, you bet it would. A 10/22 with a 30 round magazine, for instance, would offer nearly pellet gun levels of recoil, minimal noise, and I've fired them so fast in semi-auto it's nearly full-auto speed while ultra-controllable. A person with weak hands might opt for a 8 shot .22LR revolver for low recoil and ease of use.

Dead is dead, and a .22LR is a lethal weapon and will make you dead if the shooter does his part.

BTW, while 1/2 the weight (~30-40 gr) and 1/3rd the speed (~1000-1300 fps), it's nearly the same ballistic diameter as our military cartridges, .223, and the very popular military and law enforcement 5.7 chambering. Are those not lethal?
 

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What does this have to do with the original topic? Just trying to be argumentative?

Apparently it's killed thousands of people, so why would it not be an effective self defense round?

Is it ideal? No.
Would it be a legit round to defend oneself, you bet it would. A 10/22 with a 30 round magazine, for instance, would offer nearly pellet gun levels of recoil, minimal noise, and I've fired them so fast in semi-auto it's nearly full-auto speed while ultra-controllable. A person with weak hands might opt for a 8 shot .22LR revolver for low recoil and ease of use.

Dead is dead, and a .22LR is a lethal weapon and will make you dead if the shooter does his part.

BTW, while 1/2 the weight (~30-40 gr) and 1/3rd the speed (~1000-1300 fps), it's nearly the same ballistic diameter as our military cartridges, .223, and the very popular military and law enforcement 5.7 chambering. Are those not lethal?
I haven't checked stats lately, but for many years, .22LR killed more than any other caliber in the U.S., mostly due to being CHEAP and available. I'd feel moderately well protected with a good .22 LR pistol against an average opponent knowing they are laser beam accurate and easy to fire fast with accuracy.

Now as for facing some hardened opponent and/or some FREAK on PCP, I wouldn't feel so rosey about .22 LR. That's when 12 GA 00 Buck is my first choice. And although it may not "seem" particularly lethal to some people, 5.56 has proven itself a VERY nasty tumbler in soft human flesh, and it is also easy to fire fast accurately.
 

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Comic, not your lawyer!
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I haven't checked stats lately, but for many years, .22LR killed more than any other caliber in the U.S., mostly due to being CHEAP and available. I'd feel moderately well protected with a good .22 LR pistol against an average opponent knowing they are laser beam accurate and easy to fire fast with accuracy.

Now as for facing some hardened opponent and/or some FREAK on PCP, I wouldn't feel so rosey about .22 LR. That's when 12 GA 00 Buck is my first choice. And although it may not "seem" particularly lethal to some people, 5.56 has proven itself a VERY nasty tumbler in soft human flesh, and it is also easy to fire fast accurately.
Agreed. .22LR would be a compromise. But it will get the job done and it's so fast and easy to shoot accurately you can get off a lot of rounds quickly and on target. Not ideal, but will work. Likewise, birdshot is a compromise, a tradeoff for the same of protecting innocents several walls away while retaining digestating devastating firepower.

I'm still eagerly waiting to hear the location on the body of the naysayers where they'd like to shrug off a direct hit with birdshot at 10' distance and think they'd remain in the fight.
 

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Agreed. .22LR would be a compromise. But it will get the job done and it's so fast and easy to shoot accurately you can get off a lot of rounds quickly and on target. Not ideal, but will work. Likewise, birdshot is a compromise, a tradeoff for the same of protecting innocents several walls away while retaining digestating firepower.

I'm still eagerly waiting to hear the location on the body of the naysayers where they'd like to shrug off a direct hit with birdshot at 10' distance and think they'd remain in the fight.
I recently picked up some hot .22 LR HPs that have 183 ft-lbs muzzle energy. That's not so far below .38 SPL, but I can fire 25 of them before speaking this sentence. It would certainly ruin someone's day to absorb that attack. ;)
 

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Swirl Herder
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What does this have to do with the original topic? Just trying to be argumentative?

.........
So mister bird shot man.......have you looked at the title of the thread recently.

Feel free to start your own thread about using bird shot for HD..........and I will feel free to post in it and recount what I have seen cutting up a few thousand ducks and rabbits that had been shot with #4 and #6 bird shot.
 

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First to answer the O.P. question at home defense ranges inside a house. any buckshot from size #4 up is as good as it gets . All those fancy loads do is cost more. . For slugs the what ever brand of cheap slug that shoots best in you gun between soft lead and the design of the slug it dumps energy fast and deforms to cause damage and slow over penetration .
First off do any you apartment dweller even look at the layout of the apartment for being defenseable ? I look at that any where I live .
If birdshot is all you have by all means use it. Will it work ? Most likely but it is also more likely to fail to stop than buckshot or slugs .
I want to know where someone is getting one is loads of shot ? The fastest 1 oz slugs claim 1700 fps the few I have chronographed barely broke 1600 fps and have recoil approaching the level of elephant rifles .
Having a plan ahead of time and knowing your guns are as important as what load you shoot . My house the bedrooms we use are at the far end of the house . I have night lights and curtains set up to back light anyone heading for the bedrooms supporting walls and exterior walls are block we have 3 unhackable 4 legged alarms . If someone forces entry I will know it before they get in wife and grandkids are taught to retreat to the bedrooms and dial 911 bad guys can do what they want , I'll wait for police to arrive. Unless they come towards my family, then they have to come down a hall well backlit facing #00 but there is a rifle and handgun close if I need them

Edit By the way I have a 177 cal air rifle that drives a hunting weight pellet at almost 1100 ft per second that would kill you if hit just right
 

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My goodness!

As far as pdx whatever vs. buckshot I'll take regular ol' buck out to 30 yards or a bit more or less depending on choke. Slugs from there out to 100. Don't see the point in mixing different stuff in the same load.

Everybody knows birdshot is absolutely lethal from across the room. At range not so much. I know that from personal experience getting hit by a guy who got a little excited from across the duck slough (maybe 50-65 yards). At that range it's no worse than getting hit with a pair of jeans stretched across your thigh or ass cheek by a red rider at 20 feet.
 

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Comic, not your lawyer!
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My goodness!

As far as pdx whatever vs. buckshot I'll take regular ol' buck out to 30 yards or a bit more or less depending on choke. Slugs from there out to 100. Don't see the point in mixing different stuff in the same load.

Everybody knows birdshot is absolutely lethal from across the room. At range not so much. I know that from personal experience getting hit by a guy who got a little excited from across the duck slough (maybe 50-65 yards). At that range it's no worse than getting hit with a pair of jeans stretched across your thigh or ass cheek by a red rider at 20 feet.
Perfect answer! Noting that "home defense" is generally "across the room" distances, and beyond that (and thru barriers) relatively harmless to protect innocents.
 

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Premium Member
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In warmer climates birdshot can be lethal. However, in some parts of the Northern US and probably all of Canada denim becomes a factor. It has been reported that some Canadians wear up to 7 layers of denim and that doesn't account for the denim underwear and wife beater that is a 94.3% probability when above the 45 latitude.

Prepare accordingly.
 

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Comic, not your lawyer!
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Just walk it off. lol.

I'd be shocked if these head shot persons survived the lowly "birdshot" round.

Easily 50 pellets in the brain, maybe another 50 in the face. Looks like a few in the eyes. Missing teeth. Probably blinded, and dead or mortally wounded needing urgent brain surgery.




I'm seeing ~70 or so pellets deep in the brain. Probably dead on the spot.




Not lethal, but probably "fight stoppers" sending folks heading in the other direction with somewhere more important to be.

Ah, this one's painless. God gave you two arms.



Here's one, probably 100 pellets going almost all the way thru your body, hitting bones, severing many nerves, maybe hitting significant blood arteries and causing lethal internal bleeding. Nah, it'll be fine. Carry on with your burglary. lol.
 

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This thread is like watching a red neck wedding fight. I swear, I'm only back to watch the show. Logic clearly is no longer the focal point.
Clearly you have a bit of a problem with logic. What's more logical than proof of what something does?

Did you not see the pic I posted of a load of birdshot to that dudes back? Did you not see those x ray shots leadcounsel posted?

I'm baffled how someone can see that and still hold the position you do.
 
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