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False.
Do you have a lot of auto glass in your home? Doubtful.

Do you have anything close to a 20 yard lawful defensive shot inside your home? That's 60 feet. I doubt it. Further, the spread on any buckshot at 60 feet is probably pushing its safe usefulness.

Birdshot is lethal behind a common household hollow core door. So if your perp jumps behind a household door, it won't stop birdshot. But your kids 3 walls over will thank you.

And, the POINT of birdshot in a HOME DEFENSE situation is so you don't murder an innocent person 5 walls away and go to prison.

This might include the old neighbor lady 4 houses away peacefully watching her late night television, that your slug hit after going thru 9 walls...

I shouldn't have to spell that out, knowledge open to everyone at their finger tips.
Firsty. This is prepping site, in case you are lost. We are preparing for contingencies. Home defense in a SHTF situation is not the same as it is of this moment. Secondly, find me one single well respected firearm instructor who advocates bird shot in a defensive firearm. There are none. BS like you are talking comes from armchair commandos with zero experience. If you have so many children and old ladies in your line if fire, perhaps you should rethink your living situation. If over penetration is the most important thing in the world to you, maybe fielding a AR15 with frangible ammunition is the answer.
 
Firsty. This is prepping site, in case you are lost. We are preparing for contingencies. Home defense in a SHTF situation is not the same as it is of this moment. Secondly, find me one single well respected firearm instructor who advocates bird shot in a defensive firearm. There are none. BS like you are talking comes from armchair commandos with zero experience. If you have so many children and old ladies in your line if fire, perhaps you should rethink your living situation. If over penetration is the most important thing in the world to you, maybe fielding a AR15 with frangible ammunition is the answer.
Re-read the thread title.
"Home Defense..."

Not shooting people thru car windshields. Not shooting 60 feet away.

Try giving advice that meets the question, not some fantasy survivalist road warrior scenario where you're shooting people thru cars or a 1/2 football field away, where civilian causalities are secondary to your illusion defensive scenarios. Also, "defense" situations for home defense and civilians are almost never over 50 feet away... it's extremely rare. Finally, frangible ammo is effectively what bird shot is. Loads and loads of professionals including myself would certainly consider it where causalities from adjoining rooms are unacceptable.
 
There is nothing that will meet the 12-18" penetration guidelines that won't also kill someone through an interior wall in the event of a miss. You cannot have it both ways. Plan accordingly when setting up and aligning final protective fields of fire.
You aren't likely to survive or stay in the fight with a birdshot hit at typical HD distances of under 15'. That lead is acting like a slug (e.g. a cut slug) at that range. It's absolutely lethal, and is going to convince the perp this was a bad plan.

I'm fully convinced it's one of the most useful and effective affordable urban defense tools where it's fully lethal at close range, and almost harmless at longer range or thru a handful of walls.

Don't be afraid of education.
 
While I'm not one who uses birdshot as a combat load, I agree it can certainly is effective in the confines of a home or around it. It does have it's drawbacks but so does using slugs or buckshot. When people speak of "Birdshot" there is a whole lot of latitude in shot size and weights. Add into the mix the powder charge and shot cup. You can quickly come up with a load that is very lethal even at decent ranges that hold a very tight group.

I believe the best way to deal with much of this is a lot of quality training with your shotgun and making sure you know what and where your target is. That video was interesting to watch. The thing I wish they did is better simulate a wall. The addition of plaster over the drywall and insulation in the middle to better simulate most American stick built homes would have certainly yielded different results.
 
The ammunition in the OP shows buffered shot in the PDX1 vs. a standard shell, that makes a lot of difference.

I'd be a bit concerned with overpenetration with that PDX1, especially with home defense. Try utilizing the Federal Personal Defense ammunition, with the flitecontrol wad. The videos below show the difference in the grouping.



Over penetration is the big one for me also. I have Fiocchi low recoil 9 pellet 12 ga rounds loaded up in 20" barrel 870 I repurposed to HD with Rem Tab conversion and mag extension from Wingmaster hunting gun. But also have #2 and even would use bird shot. Paul Harrell has good videos on bird sot and his meat target that most have probably seen if you have researched at all, they are very interesting.

 
Firsty. This is prepping site, in case you are lost. We are preparing for contingencies. Home defense in a SHTF situation is not the same as it is of this moment. Secondly, find me one single well respected firearm instructor who advocates bird shot in a defensive firearm. There are none. BS like you are talking comes from armchair commandos with zero experience. If you have so many children and old ladies in your line if fire, perhaps you should rethink your living situation. If over penetration is the most important thing in the world to you, maybe fielding a AR15 with frangible ammunition is the answer.
Maybe you do what you want for your needs, I will do what I want for my needs.

Contingencies like, NOT HAVING ANY other ammo than bird shot? LOL I open my mind and test myself, look in the mirror for the one who is armcharing. Perhaps you need to rethink your own BS posting.
 
While I'm not one who uses birdshot as a combat load, I agree it can certainly is effective in the confines of a home or around it. It does have it's drawbacks but so does using slugs or buckshot. When people speak of "Birdshot" there is a whole lot of latitude in shot size and weights. Add into the mix the powder charge and shot cup. You can quickly come up with a load that is very lethal even at decent ranges that hold a very tight group.

I believe the best way to deal with much of this is a lot of quality training with your shotgun and making sure you know what and where your target is. That video was interesting to watch. The thing I wish they did is better simulate a wall. The addition of plaster over the drywall and insulation in the middle to better simulate most American stick built homes would have certainly yielded different results.

FROM PARTAKING on the construction of LOTS of homes, ONLY the outside walls are insulated unless specifically requested by the homeowner during the construction phase, so the connecting wall to bedrooms, living rooms, etc will not be insulated.

2nd- Plaster? Unless the house was built in the 40s or earlier no one has built a house using lathe and plaster. Drywall was the replacement starting in 1916 and finally became the standard replacement about 30 years later.

and I have never seen anyone plaster on top of drywall, it kind of defeats the who purpose of the drywall unless you are into those wavy rough wall effects that rip your skin up if you brush up against it.

BUt, I can tell you from having seen dozens of birdshot shootings inside houses that they ALL are very effective at putting people down and making a real mess of them.
In fact, other than police shotgun shootings, in all my years ghetto hunting I only can remember just one time someone shot someone else with 00 buck, and that was at contact wound distance to the stomach, so, it really didn't matter what was used at that range.
 
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Firsty. This is prepping site, in case you are lost. We are preparing for contingencies. Home defense in a SHTF situation is not the same as it is of this moment. Secondly, find me one single well respected firearm instructor who advocates bird shot in a defensive firearm. There are none. BS like you are talking comes from armchair commandos with zero experience. If you have so many children and old ladies in your line if fire, perhaps you should rethink your living situation. If over penetration is the most important thing in the world to you, maybe fielding a AR15 with frangible ammunition is the answer.
NOW, ASK those same "respected instructors " what they advocate for INSIDE a house where potential over penetration could be an issue?

I don't see anywhere in the OP where it is an EOTW situation and the zombie mutants are storming the walls of the castle. I saw the question as a "Gee, which round is best for defending against BGs who have breached my home and are a threat?"
and
I have no idea of Lead's experience, but I have seen a couple dozen inside the house shootings in my years as a ghetto crawler and I can tell you none of the shootees would tell you if they could that "00 buck would have put me down faster"
All the shootings were not fatal, but all the shootings were instant stoppers and in all but one of them there was only entry wound and no exit using "bird" shot. The one that exited was a 00 buck at muzzle contact range, so maybe even bird loads would have powered through.

Headgear Font Hat Movie News
 
What if they are partially behind a door? What if they are beyond 20 yards? Bird shot is a crappy choice for a shotgun. Period.
Everybody's the expert, and yet everybody's the idiot, you're right and I'm wrong, is that it?? Call me when you get your **** together and know what TF you're talking about! People way underestimate the power of birdshot!
Get a clue PAL!!!!
Birdshot vs Exterior Door - YouTube
 
Across a bedroom, 7 1/2's will more than likely work just fine. But yes, a larger person, or an angled shot through a shoulder, etc., could result in not stopping someone who was determined, and it happens. Rat hole wounds are ugly, but don't magically always work if something important isn't perforated.

Federal used to make a personal defense load of #2 plated, hardened shot, that actually made 12" penetration +/-. It bridged the gap somewhat between birdshot and buckshot, but it's long discontinued. I'm sure some duck or goose loads would work similarly.
 
You aren't likely to survive or stay in the fight with a birdshot hit at typical HD distances of under 15'. That lead is acting like a slug (e.g. a cut slug) at that range. It's absolutely lethal, and is going to convince the perp this was a bad plan.
Birdshot can of course kill, but I will not use or recommend birdshot for life safety purposes*, and believe it to be irresponsible to do. Your video only reinforces that.

No one is arguing it will not make nasty wounds and can't kill readily, particularly at point blank range. Note, however, the platform used in your video is a 24" barrel with a modified choke at 3.3 yards. You can find ranges significantly greater than that in a typical apartment or even a master bedroom, and your end user might be using a cylinder bore with 18.5" barrel, all of which exacerbate the limitations of birdshot even further. At very real distances you may encounter (and not just at the end of a hall) birdshot will not reliably penetrate sufficiently to reach vitals from lateral angles, through shoulders or through extended forearms, nor will it necessarily result in a psychological stop on a person with altered mental status. You don't assume the optimistic outcome, even if that often is the outcome.

Overpenetration is absolutely one factor that a person must consider when doing their due diligence, and depending on your circumstances may be of little consequence or great importance, so we should of course plan to mitigate that during our risk assessment, but within reason I cannot think of any situation in which that concern overrides the concern of effectively stopping the threat to the life of you or your family. Taking this analogy to pistols, the threat of over penetration or a miss killing a bystander exists no matter where you carry your concealed carry firearm if you're in a populated area, do you recommending carrying loads that under penetrate in this scenario as well?

Contingent on patterning, a reasonable compromise in my eyes for a home defense is #4 buckshot, and I say that acknowledging that this may still over penetrate and kill someone in an adjacent room. *There are a select few "birdshot" loads that will penetrate in the 12" range even out to 20 yards, and these would be viable as well. They tend to be plated "BB" sized pellets, but are more esoteric and not typically available at common retail outlets.

I'm not trying to change your mind as you've obviously drawn your conclusions, I'm just providing my rationale for whatever that's worth to someone else reading this.

NOW, ASK those same "respected instructors " what they advocate for INSIDE a house where potential over penetration could be an issue?
What do police officers use inside homes, where over penetration remains an issue? Departments that still use shotguns train to swap from buckshot to slugs as the situation dictates, do you know of any that swaps from buckshot to birdshot? Why do you suppose that is?
 
Across a bedroom, 7 1/2's will more than likely work just fine. But yes, a larger person, or an angled shot through a shoulder, etc., could result in not stopping someone who was determined, and it happens. Rat hole wounds are ugly, but don't magically always work if something important isn't perforated.

Federal used to make a personal defense load of #2 plated, hardened shot, that actually made 12" penetration +/-. It bridged the gap somewhat between birdshot and buckshot, but it's long discontinued. I'm sure some duck or goose loads would work similarly.
there is a continuum of shot sizes from #4 to T to BBB and up. Difference betweenT and 4 BS is about the same as between #1 and #3. If I were a patrol officer I’d want the best patterning large buckshot I would get. Using hi velocity bird shot at 10 yards would scare me. Being a Homeowner is a different situation. I have a hard time envisioning a situation happening now where I would engage outside my house with a shotgun. Riots wouldn’t make it this far, and I can’t imagine a armed assault by a drug cartel.

during the start of COVID, when no one with him a brain knew what was going to happen, I put a keltec in the top drawer of my chest of drawers ( which serves as a night stand.). One tube of #6 pheasant loads, one tube of federal premium 00 buckshot, switch set to feed #6 pheasant. I don’t feel under armed, and I’m not kicking my daughter out of the house to get a clear field of fire.

I’m probally better than most as all my bedroom walls ( both sides of interior walls, outside walls, and in all the bedrooms.) are 5/8 type X Sheetrock.
 
. When people speak of "Birdshot" there is a whole lot of latitude in shot size and weights. Add into the mix the powder charge and shot cup. You can quickly come up with a load that is very lethal even at decent ranges that hold a very tight group.
Excellent point that is often overlooked since the majority of people who are in the shotgun for home defense discussions didn't grow up hunting various animals with a shotgun and only experience is shooting paper targets and watching Youtube videos (No offense to the OP. Excellent video). There is a massive difference in the capabilities of a high brass #4 field loads versus a #12 dove load.
 
Excellent point that is often overlooked since the majority of people who are in the shotgun for home defense discussions didn't grow up hunting various animals with a shotgun and only experience is shooting paper targets and watching Youtube videos (No offense to the OP. Excellent video). There is a massive difference in the capabilities of a high brass #4 field loads versus a #12 dove load.
I’ve see a large mule deer killed ( illegally) by a pheasant hunter. Probally hot 6s or 5s. Deer ran 100’ maybe. About the same I’d get with a 308. Not really smart to take the shot in ND where they were wearing orange vests and could be seen from a mile off. I was watching the mule deer.
 
What do police officers use inside homes, where over penetration remains an issue? Departments that still use shotguns train to swap from buckshot to slugs as the situation dictates, do you know of any that swaps from buckshot to birdshot? Why do you suppose that is?
BY THE time the issue gets to the pOleeeece getting involved, usually TIME is the issue
also
by the time we get involved the BGs have had a chance to burrow in and get ready for us if they are so inclined
AND
cops on a hot call have neither the TIME nor the inclination to stop, shuck out the 00buck, then reload with lighter shot THEN on arrival find things have changed and now the BGs are running loose in the neighborhood where distance counts.

there is a HUGE difference between police response and home owner defense.
You are trying to compare apples and zebras to justify over penetrating rounds for home defense
You ever seen someone chest shot with #6 pheasant loads at 12 feet out of a 20 ga. ? I have. I don't think a slug from a 12ga could have made him any deader.
 
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I don't have a lot of post on THIS website, but I do on other gun boards. I have extensive ballistics knowledge over the last 20 years.

Birdshot, except in extremely limited scenarios, should NEVER be used or recommended for defensive use.

The FBI uses 12-18 inches for a very important reason. Birdshot will never penetrate that deep.

Bullets/projectiles can stop felonious attackers in three different ways. Psychological, blood loss, and central nervous system damage.

Birdshot can only reliably stop a person via the psychological means (ouch I've been shot, I think I will sit down here and wait for an ambulance). It lacks penetration to reach for central nervous system damage usually (spine/brain) and usually lacks enough penetration to reach arteries for fast blood loss.

There are numerous dead cops, that are now dead, because they had birdshot loaded in their shotguns. Had they had proper self defense ammo in their guns, they might still be alive.

DO NOT depend on a psychological stop! There are literally hundreds/thousands of cases of injured people continuing to attack. People are either high on drugs/alcohol, or suicidal, and don't care that they have been injured. They will continue their attack until you are dead, because they are in that frame of mind.

Here is a very simple scenario for you. You are recently divorced, back in the dating pool. You have a new girlfriend. She is sleeping at your house, when her drunk/deranged and suicidal ex boyfriend kicks in your door. He cant live without her, and he has decided that he will kill you, kill her, and then kill himself. He doesn't care if he dies. Its his intention. You shoot him with 7.5 birdshot load in the stomach from 13 feet away. It has not reached any vitals. Its a superficial wound. It might kill him in a few hours, but you don't have a few hours. You have seconds. He CAN and WILL continue advancing on you and attacking you with his weapon of choice, until you are dead, or he is dead. Wounding ammo such as birdshot will not save you in this situation.

Sure we can all agree that birdshot wounds can look gruesome, but without deep penetration, they look gross but a determined attacker can fight through the pain.

If you care about yourself and your loved ones, you would use a projectile that penetrates deeper than bird shot. #4 buckshot is a good compromise load.
 
I've been a shooter and hunter with shotguns for over 60 years. I know the platform's capabilities well.
Buckshot would be more applicable in many more potential scenarios than birdshot would.
Why limit your options if you don't have to.
Or course, individual homeowner circumstances may vary.
 
I don't have a lot of post on THIS website, but I do on other gun boards. I have extensive ballistics knowledge over the last 20 years.

Birdshot, except in extremely limited scenarios, should NEVER be used or recommended for defensive use.

The FBI uses 12-18 inches for a very important reason. Birdshot will never penetrate that deep.

Bullets/projectiles can stop felonious attackers in three different ways. Psychological, blood loss, and central nervous system damage.

Birdshot can only reliably stop a person via the psychological means (ouch I've been shot, I think I will sit down here and wait for an ambulance). It lacks penetration to reach for central nervous system damage usually (spine/brain) and usually lacks enough penetration to reach arteries for fast blood loss.

There are numerous dead cops, that are now dead, because they had birdshot loaded in their shotguns. Had they had proper self defense ammo in their guns, they might still be alive.

DO NOT depend on a psychological stop! There are literally hundreds/thousands of cases of injured people continuing to attack. People are either high on drugs/alcohol, or suicidal, and don't care that they have been injured. They will continue their attack until you are dead, because they are in that frame of mind.

Here is a very simple scenario for you. You are recently divorced, back in the dating pool. You have a new girlfriend. She is sleeping at your house, when her drunk/deranged and suicidal ex boyfriend kicks in your door. He cant live without her, and he has decided that he will kill you, kill her, and then kill himself. He doesn't care if he dies. Its his intention. You shoot him with 7.5 birdshot load in the stomach from 13 feet away. It has not reached any vitals. Its a superficial wound. It might kill him in a few hours, but you don't have a few hours. You have seconds. He CAN and WILL continue advancing on you and attacking you with his weapon of choice, until you are dead, or he is dead. Wounding ammo such as birdshot will not save you in this situation.

Sure we can all agree that birdshot wounds can look gruesome, but without deep penetration, they look gross but a determined attacker can fight through the pain.

If you care about yourself and your loved ones, you would use a projectile that penetrates deeper than bird shot. #4 buckshot is a good compromise load.
JUST OUT of curiosity

How many shootings have you ACTUALLY been to to see first hand the results of the weapons used along with the environment where it happened and the responses of the parties involved?
or
are your 20 years of extensive ballistics studies based upon the writings of others? I think it is a fair question.

As for the FBI... maybe they have changed, but when I had interactions with them for over 20 years I can tell you what they taught and looked at the world..well I was not that impressed.
Way back when the FBI was going to put on a firing seminar for the dept.
and
one of the things they stressed was the use of #4 buck for a myriad of reasons. .. including better hit probability of something hitting because there are more pellets.
and
I asked the question "OK, but at what range have you found that pellets will start missing the intended target"? The FBI INSTRUCTOR said "It doesn't matter if some miss because you are bound to hit with some of them."
To which I responded "No, that is not the question. What I want to know is at what range will you know some of those pellets will fly by the intended targets and keep singing down range and take granny with her stroller or Timmy off his BigWheel? I don't know about the FBI but we are kind of held responsible for what happens on the other side of the shot"
The FBI INSTRUCTOR got this strange look and said "No one has ever asked that question or raised that issue before, and to answer your question..I don't know."

We were doing a joint task force raid and I saw a new agent I was with take a position of cover where he was resting his arms on the hood of a car pointing his pistol at the area we were covering. I pulled him away from his firing point and literally dragged him to a different position and told him to STAY!. Later as he was getting sorted out he asked WTF was that about? I asked him what he was doing, he said he was taught to use the engine and wheel to protect him from incoming fire. I told him that taking a position OVER the hood extended his kill zone by about 4 feet, BECAUSE the average pistol round will skip off a car hood and so even a short round will skid into his upper torso. I know this because one of our officers killed a guy in a shootout by having his short round skip off the car hood and take the guy through the heart. We also demonstrated it on one of our yearly BIG range days where we had junk cars pulled in and just about everything in the inventory was tried by officers. We could regularly skip rounds off the hood .

THEN
of course we had the great show they put on in Miami that one fateful day. How did all their training and tactics work out for them that day?

The FBI is a good agency for a lot of things having to do with compiling numbers and patterns and such.
I never found one I would want to go through a door with.
 
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