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Always Loaded
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As long as you test a load in YOUR shotgun, and it patterns reliably, go with it. That is, #4 buck or larger. Nobody should be fielding bird shot in a defensive firearm. I hate that I even have to say that, with the wealth of knowledge open to everyone at their finger tips. What happens when it's through auto glass? What if they are partially behind a door? What if they are beyond 20 yards? Bird shot is a crappy choice for a shotgun. Period.

Loads like the PDX1 are a over complicated answer to a simple problem. Other than costing 4X a conventional load, what can it do better than a 00 load or a slug? Nobody walks away from a 1 oz slug. Will it make them more deader? It's a fancy round designed to wow people into spending money.
 

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Always Loaded
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2,815 Posts
False.
Do you have a lot of auto glass in your home? Doubtful.

Do you have anything close to a 20 yard lawful defensive shot inside your home? That's 60 feet. I doubt it. Further, the spread on any buckshot at 60 feet is probably pushing its safe usefulness.

Birdshot is lethal behind a common household hollow core door. So if your perp jumps behind a household door, it won't stop birdshot. But your kids 3 walls over will thank you.

And, the POINT of birdshot in a HOME DEFENSE situation is so you don't murder an innocent person 5 walls away and go to prison.

This might include the old neighbor lady 4 houses away peacefully watching her late night television, that your slug hit after going thru 9 walls...

I shouldn't have to spell that out, knowledge open to everyone at their finger tips.
Firsty. This is prepping site, in case you are lost. We are preparing for contingencies. Home defense in a SHTF situation is not the same as it is of this moment. Secondly, find me one single well respected firearm instructor who advocates bird shot in a defensive firearm. There are none. BS like you are talking comes from armchair commandos with zero experience. If you have so many children and old ladies in your line if fire, perhaps you should rethink your living situation. If over penetration is the most important thing in the world to you, maybe fielding a AR15 with frangible ammunition is the answer.
 

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Always Loaded
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2,815 Posts
1. You mentioned there are limited scenarios to use birdshot in defense. You did not say what those are.

2. You gave a scenario where you gutshot an attacker. Yet left it at that without the natural conclusions. Those are:
A. He's not superman. Being gutshot is going to do devestating shock followed by internal and external blood loss from dozens of wounds. It's not survivable without relatively quick medical care.
B. You get a follow up shot, don't you? While he is stunned from taking 1oz of lead to the gut, you shoot him again. Perhaps aim better.
C. In your example a slug or buckshot may make no difference unless you managed to hit the spine, b/c there are not immediately vital organs in the the gut. To the sides are the liver, kidneys, etc. But your "gut shot" example would be the same result with a slug or buckshot absent hitting the spine.

So, the answer is, also, that you did not accidentally kill the neighbor lady with and errant pellet. And also, you're not limited to 1 shot. You shoot a follow up.
Let it go. Every single argument you present could be used to debate why a .22 pistol is superior for home defense. If you want to stage your shotguns with loads meant for 6 oz birds, please, do so. What you should not do is spread your retarded logic to other potentially new firearm owners who do not know any better.
 

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Always Loaded
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2,815 Posts
Really, depending on how it's made the shot may still all be in the wad/cup, which pretty much makes a cut shell "loose slug" of sorts.
Cut shells are a fun concept, but are not nearly reliable enough. They also will not function in any pump or auto loader. Any traditional shot load leaves the wad within 3-4 feet from the barrel.
 

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Always Loaded
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Anytime you want to sign a document and stand in front of a load of birdshot to prove how ineffective it is, you just let us know. An ounce of lead, REGARDLESS of the name or how it's packaged, ain't gonna just bounce off you at HOME DEFENSE ranges of under 20' or often under 10'. That load is going to come out as one dense hunk of lead, and drop or deter whomever is trying to do you harm.

Death dealing commandos on the internet are hilarious. You need a death laser to end an attack... No, not really. That's not supported by real world information. You have cops weighing in counter to your views. And REAL WORLD statistics showing that over 95% (and closer to 99%) of defensive gun use a shot is never even needed to be fired.

I applaud the person being responsible and using birdshot in a cramped urban situation so as to not needlessly risk innocents on the other side of the wall.
"You want to get shot with it?" is the war cry of the caliber clown. Did anyone here say dove loads bounce off human flesh? My sons BB gun is a great home defense weapon. No? Well would you let me ding you in the face with it then? Ammo choice is about effectiveness. Why we carry 9mm's instead of .25 acp's. It's why we don't hunt deer with .22's. It's why we usually choose a 12 ga over a .410. You clearly think you know the answer, even after multiple experienced people have broken this down for you. Thousands of veterans and police are obviously uninformed. You know better than everyone. Have a good day. Be safe.
 

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Always Loaded
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2,815 Posts
I'm waiting to hear all the birdshot haters tell us where they'd take a load of birdshot and shrug it off.

Tell us the location on your body please.
Find me one incident of a justified shooting by a citizen in, their home that passed through a bad guy and killed a innocent person. Not a police officer in a crowd, a citizen. It doesn't exists. The chance of you even firing a weapon at a intruder is insanely minute. The possibility of that rare occurrence then causing a pass through strike is 1,000X MORE unlikely. You are altering your defensive load on a .000000001% chance. You are hell bent on a argument that has no basis in reality. As others have shown you, to no effect, there are hundreds of examples of people be shot by far more powerful loads than bird shot and continuing the fight. Facts bounce off you like logic bounces off of Joe Biden.

I have encountered many hair brained and plain stupid opinions on firearms in my life. I have never before found somoene so dedicated to their stupid ideology.
 

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Always Loaded
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Leadcounsel. Still waiting on that "helpful information". One, single, incident of a justified shooting by a civilian that caused the death or even injury of a innocent person due to over penetration. 320 million people, hundreds of thousands of self defense situations. Seems pertinent to the argument.
 

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Always Loaded
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Um, if you mean bullets that have overpenetrated thru wall(s) and killed or injured an innocent person? Too easy. There's probably millions of examples. Page 1 of search includes cops killing an innocent man thru walls, several articles of different children killed by errant bullets that came into their homes or exited the houses of the shootings to hit the children outside, etc. It's not clear to me what part of this is confusing. Overly powerful rounds in a urban setting must go somewhere until they exhaust their energy and sadly the high probability of hitting someone in an urban setting exists.

Not interested in your homework assignment beyond proving you're completely delusional and wrong. Almost every article on page 1 of my search, which returned a million hits...

Whether intentional or accidental, bullets go thru common walls quite easily and strike innocents on the other side. That is what we all want to ideally mitigate, which is a large risk in a urban environment. How can you not grasp this concept?





You seem to uptake information, filter out what you don't like, and move one. Not one incident you noted was a civilian involved in a justifiable shooting. Unless drive by shootings are justifieable where you come from. Considering the "millions" of incidents, it's funny you can't find a single one. I'll keep waiting.
 

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Always Loaded
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2,815 Posts
Discussing this on a another forum, I remembered this video. A kid shot from 10 feet away in the arm, then directly in the chest, and then a grazing head wound, with #6 shot. Messed him up, but remained conscious and walked out of the hospital in a week. If this guy was drugged up, or had any bad intention, he absolutely would have been able to return fire in a defensive situation. Skip to 2:00 for shooting.

 

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Always Loaded
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This thread is like watching a red neck wedding fight. I swear, I'm only back to watch the show. Logic clearly is no longer the focal point.
 

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Always Loaded
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Clearly you have a bit of a problem with logic. What's more logical than proof of what something does?

Did you not see the pic I posted of a load of birdshot to that dudes back? Did you not see those x ray shots leadcounsel posted?

I'm baffled how someone can see that and still hold the position you do.
You are easily baffled, clearly. This is not complex. Birdshot can hurt you. We all know this. Nobody has stated otherwise. As I said to the motivational speaker earlier, find me a single experienced personality. One. Of the hundreds. Trainers, police instructors, shooting academy owners. Anyone from Massad Ayoob to Elmer Keith that suggests the use of birdshot. Not a one. The only people who do are self proclaimed internet experts who probably can't get through Walmart unless their Rascal scooter is fully charged. Don't spread misinformation, don't eat paint chips, and take a Midol before responding.

Yes, I enjoy kicking hornet nests.
 

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Always Loaded
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2,815 Posts
At close range, a blank will kill. Don't try to tell me bird shot will not.

Is it my go to self defense shell? No, but honestly neither is a shotgun my go to self defense weapon.

This reminds me of the constant ".22LR can't kill a person" arguments.
Where have you heard that argument? You must be hanging in the shallow part of the internet. I truly want to understand how you dingleberries interpret "Bird shot is not good for self defense" to "bird shot is harmless and can't kill you".

Frangible ammo behaves like bird shot. You are a retard, no it does not. A projectile that breaks apart on impact is not the same as a projectile that breaks apart 2 feet from the muzzle. Not many people using frangible ammo either, probably because the ballistic properties suck.
 

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Always Loaded
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BIF, I was going to load some 12G 3" shells Friday with a buddy. Doing the slug/00/#6 (cause I already got it all on hand). Any tips? I was going to run it through my tricked out mossy 88. I know, its like a ghetto tricked out pinto but it runs.

My buddy suggested #4 but I have a truckload of gifts to get already, and santa already asked for 9mm practice or 00 . Mrs Claus is long up to speed.
Are you saying you are loading all three in the same hull? That should be interesting. I have no personal experience doing that. I'm thinking of working up some tri-ball loads soon. I tested some 3" 15 pellet 00 buck loads last weekend. They were gnarly! Used the old school style of a plain gas seal under a hard wax card, no shot cup. Pretty wide spread, obviously, but they would be devastating at 20 yards or less. Also perfecting those 525 gr Lyman slugs. Shotshell loading is a completely different animal from metallic.
 
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