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Gettin' there
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Discussion Starter #1
I am so sick of this crap :mad: Now the auto makers in America want to be bailed out! :eek:

Maybe if they made a product worth buying, they wouldn't be bankrupt. Why should our tax dollars go to companies who make a terrible product?

Anyone who votes to give them money needs to be horse whipped :whip:
 

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I'm the boogey man.......
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6,686 Posts
US auto makers have REFUSED to keep up with technology and allowed themselves to be killed by the unions. Let 'em go under.
 

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Funny how some industries are expected to fund thier own research, whilst others are fully subsidized.

Do you think that there will be an auto industry in the US to move into "green technology" if we fail to bail? Or are we setting-out under this new administration to be the "green tech pioneers" (ha!), but oops... our auto industry is totally and completely gone before we get there?

I think the companies themselves have invested quite a bit into this, hoping for a payoff somehow in the end.

To the other aspect, if we are paying out to banks for lame mortgages, then under the same reasoning/theories, why wouldn't we pay out to lame auto loan makers as well?

Here's a super idea: Let's borrow against our future taxes and just pay everyone who acted irresponsibly, all the way down to a credit for the folks who took out the ridiculous loans! :upsidedown:


To hell in a handbasket...
 

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Information is Ammunition
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the news said that if they dont get bailed out they would have to lay off everyone they have left, which would kill the companies- and destroy the local and state economies. no revenue going in, and everyone will want money the government there doesnt have. the entire state of michigan (for one) would go bankrupt.

I have one person I know online that lives in detroit, and most of the city is as much of a boarded up ghost town as seen in Robocop allready.

Im not advocating another bailout here, I just want you to see both sides of the coin...
 

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All one needs to do, is to compare the stock\share price of Toyota and any one of the "Big 3" and it also happens that Toyota in thier 60 odd years of production has never Laid Off a single employee.......... what gives here ?
 

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Watchin tha world go by
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hey come on now -- where is your sense of charity?

its only 50B to retool, (which most buisnesses have ta pay themselves)
and 50B ta save the pension fund.

whats another measley 100B --- after all its only paper
 

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high on truck stop coffee
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Big 3 Auto LOANS

Fellas,this was discussed alot lately & most people fail to understand this financial assistance is a government LOAN...the big 3 gotta pay it all back at 11%.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/editorial/bal-ed.gm25oct25,0,2833259.story

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7993742


As far as quality and auto technology,maybe you should review these current stats.

1. Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?

Answer: United States .
Per J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Study, Mercury and Cadillac are in the top 3, along with Lexus. And in 2007, Buick was tied with Lexus for the top spot.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008115

2.As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?

Answer: Volkswagen.
According to Business Week, Volkswagen had the most recalls at this time a year ago. The second worst was Toyota .
http://www.businessweek.com/autos /content/aug2007/bw20070810_455098.htm

3. Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.
a. Answer : Cadillac (better than both Acura and BMW)
b. Answer: Mercury (better than both Honda and Nissan)
c. Answer: Chevrolet (better than Acura, BMW, and Mazda)
This is according to J.D. Power’s Initial Quality Survey.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008063

4. Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer: The Chevrolet Malibu has better initial quality than any competitor, including the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Nissan Altima. The Ford Fusion also beat all 3 Japanese competitors. This is from the J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey, which also reveals that above average are American brands Mercury, Ford, Cadillac, Chevrolet , Pontiac, Lincoln, and Buick. Below average are import brands Acura, Kia, Nissan, BMW, Mazda, VW, Subaru, and Scion (and several others).
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2008-Initial-Quality:-Midsize-and-Large-Cars
http://www.jdpower. com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008063

5.Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer: Again per J.D. Power, the highest quality large car is the Pontiac Grand Prix, beating the Toyota Avalon. Two other Detroit cars that beat the Avalon are the Mercury Sable and Mercury Grand Marquis.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2008-Initial-Quality:-Midsize-and-Large-Cars

6. Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?

Answer: The Dodge Dakota has the best quality for midsize pickups, proving that Chrysler too can beat the imports. Both the Dakota and the Ford Ranger beat the Toyota Tacoma .
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2008-Initial-Quality:-Pickups-and-Vans

7.Which car is the most economical overall?

Answer: Per Edmunds.com, the premier automotive analysis site, the most economical car in America , taking into account not only mileage but all costs, is the Chevrolet Aveo. The Honda Fit is #3 and the Toyota Prius is a distant #34.
http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/127806/article.html

8. Which car did the Los Angeles Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?

Answer: “Cadillac makes a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti, and that car is the 2008 CTS. No other car in the mass market dares so much as this expressive and audacious bit of automotive avant-gardism.” Dan Neil, LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil12dec12-pg,0,5427133.photogallery

9. Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?

Answer: The Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid is the winner of this award. How could a full-size SUV defeat the media darling Toyota Prius? Read the link below and you will discover, “What’s equally eye-opening is that the Tahoe’s 21 mpg city fuel efficiency rating is the same as that of the city EPA rating for the four-cylinder Toyota Camry sedan. ”
Did you catch that?A huge, full-size SUV from Chevrolet that gets the same city mileage as a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry!! Chevy obtained this remarkable achievement through the use of its 2-mode hybrid system, a technology that Toyota does not have.
http://www.greencar.com/features/2008greencar/

10. Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?

Answer: Not only was the Saturn Aura picked by the automotive press corps as better than the Honda Fit and the Toyota Camry, “When a panel of 47 journalists named the Saturn Aura the North American Car of the Year over the Toyota Camry, the vote wasn't even close, 205-89.” C hicago Tribune, 1/15/07
http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/news.html

11. Which car won the same award for 2008?

Answer: GM again crushed the Japanese competition in 2008 when the Malibu received 190 votes to the Honda Accord’s 95. The Accord actually came in 3rd since GM’s other finalist, the Cadillac CTS, received 165 votes.
http://www.northamericancaroftheyear.org/news.html

12. Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in October 2007 because of mounting quality problems?

Answer: Toyota’s much publicized quality problems resulted in Consumer Reports actually removing from their recommended vehicles list the Lexus GS luxury car, Camry V6 sedan, and Tundra pickup. This demotion occurred in October 2007.

This Q & A list was put together by an employee of an American car company who just might lose his job because of public perceptions that do not match reality. If you are one of the many Americans who gave up on Detroit ’s cars because of a bad experience many years ago, it’s time to rethink your position. Rethink Detroit .
 

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American fearmaker
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So how come the federal government has not come running to bail all of US out? I feel discriminated against because I'm not... not... Hmmmm... What am I not? Not a what? A multi-national corporation with thousands upon thousands of jobs depending on me? A fat cat banker or banking institution that couldn't control his/its own financial mess/collapse because of incompetent, mostly Democrat, politicians making stupid laws/rules? Or is it because the politicians know that since they started this mess, they're going to have to fix it real soon or they will be held accountable for this misjudgments? In other words, if the politicians fix this crap then they're hoping nobody will call for their heads and danger to their lavish lifestyles will be averted. I think that we American citizens have a NEED to hold accountable those morons who actually got us into this mess in the first place. Now get this: I am talking about the morons from BOTH political parties that put our nation's financial welfare in dire straits. The Democrats are the main culprits, no doubt about it. BUT the thing to remember is that there were a number of Republicans who can ALSO be held accountable too. I would, however, be satisfied to discontinue any hard feelings that I might have if those same politicians would coming running out of their hiding places to give or grant me vast amounts of money, property and power. After all, my vote can be bought but the price for it won't be cheap...
 

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For the record, I have a hard time buying the stats listed above.. I am all for buying American when the American product is better.. but JD Power is owned by whom?

And even IF American cars suddenly became as reliable as their Japanese competitors, they have spent SO MUCH time really sucking that their recent reliability ratings are a crapshoot at best.. There is no way in hell that a Cadillac is as reliable as an Accord, Camry or Acura... There is no way that Mercury, Chevy or Ford can compete with the cars that have been ultra reliable for so many years, based on possibly one or two years of suddenly putting out a good product.

I've owned American cars and I currently own an Accord and a Pathfinder.. I wouldn't replace EITHER with an American car..

The whole "buy American" argument is the same logic that those who support the two party system of voting for the lesser of two evils are using.. And the REALLY funny part is that there are so many Japanese parts in those American cars that you can make an entire SNL skit out of this..

So sorry, if the auto companies here in the US are having a hard time and will have to lay off lots of employees.. My Mom is also being forced to close her business that she's had going for 20 years and has 30 employees.. Life sucks... I say let them go under. if their products were truly as good as JD Power says they are, they shouldn't have a problem. Years of literally sleeping at the wheel while other automakers have been proving their products is to blame.
 

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You think the bailouts are bad just look at the TRILLIONS OF $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ missing from the Pentagon and no one has a clue where it went, at least that's what they tell us.

In case you can't understand it the bail out is a robbery on a scale that most people can't imagine. They will take the money and run and leave us with the debt.

 
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high on truck stop coffee
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Anyone can see..

For the record, I have a hard time buying the stats listed above.. I am all for buying American when the American product is better.. but JD Power is owned by whom?

There is no way in hell that a Cadillac is as reliable as an Accord, Camry or Acura... There is no way that Mercury, Chevy or Ford can compete with the cars that have been ultra reliable for so many years, based on possibly one or two years of suddenly putting out a good product.


The whole "buy American" argument is the same logic that those who support the two party system of voting for the lesser of two evils are using.. And the REALLY funny part is that there are so many Japanese parts in those American cars that you can make an entire SNL skit out of this..

So sorry, if the auto companies here in the US are having a hard time and will have to lay off lots of employees.. My Mom is also being forced to close her business that she's had going for 20 years and has 30 employees.Years of literally sleeping at the wheel while other automakers have been proving their products is to blame.
Yes,it appears every business is gonna take a hit if the Big 3 go bankrupt,just last night a senior advisor of U.S. investment trends has stated that if they do,the bankrupt tsunami will reach all of America in some manner,just recently this summer local businesses near the closed Lincoln plant in Wixom,Mic. have had much difficulty,I have seen four of them close their doors as a result of a lack of income...everyday mom & pop party stores,pizza places,drug stores and one hobby shop.
As far as quality of Cadillacs,they are every bit as stated in the above report,I've driven my neighbors Escalade and it's amazing how quiet,tight and powerfull this vehicle is...personally,I drive a Dodge Dakota & have my FORD Crown Vic in the garage for cross country trips...we were driving thru the mountains of Colorado last year and some kids passed us in a Toyota SUV...amazingly,as they got way out ahead of us,we seen a piece of sidetrim fall off and the driver pulled off the side of the road to retrive it...!!We had a chuckle as we drove past that POS and with cruise control on I was getting 24MPG...some of you won't believe it,but you wouldn't believe it if someone told you the sky is blue,so why bother trying..??Sad,but sooo true.:D:
 

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I help enlighten folks
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The thing is, it may be cheaper for the govt to keep the big three treading water than it will be to pay for the aftermath of them going under in all the benefits people will lose.
 

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After 30 plus years of driving and buying I would drive right by the big three to the Honda or Toyota dealership for a new vehicle.

I have two Fords now and just retired a Honda that was 14 years old, which still ran excellent.
 

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I'll fix it
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2,548 Posts
You think the bailouts are bad just look at the TRILLIONS OF $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ missing from the Pentagon and no one has a clue where it went, at least that's what they tell us.

In case you can't understand it the bail out is a robbery on a scale that most people can't imagine. They will take the money and run and leave us with the debt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV301PZ-LhE
Whoa, I guess that's clear evidence of a huge black budget.
I can't believe Rumsfield pointed it out. No wonder they kicked him out.


Save Ford, I just bought stock. Plus, I want to trade in my 06 Hybrid Highlander for a 2010 Mustang.
 

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Gettin' there
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Discussion Starter #19
AGREE!!!!!! I'm still driving my 1988 toyota pickup 4 cyl. w/ 240,000 miles on it. :D:


For the record, I have a hard time buying the stats listed above.. I am all for buying American when the American product is better.. but JD Power is owned by whom?

And even IF American cars suddenly became as reliable as their Japanese competitors, they have spent SO MUCH time really sucking that their recent reliability ratings are a crapshoot at best.. There is no way in hell that a Cadillac is as reliable as an Accord, Camry or Acura... There is no way that Mercury, Chevy or Ford can compete with the cars that have been ultra reliable for so many years, based on possibly one or two years of suddenly putting out a good product.

I've owned American cars and I currently own an Accord and a Pathfinder.. I wouldn't replace EITHER with an American car..

The whole "buy American" argument is the same logic that those who support the two party system of voting for the lesser of two evils are using.. And the REALLY funny part is that there are so many Japanese parts in those American cars that you can make an entire SNL skit out of this..

So sorry, if the auto companies here in the US are having a hard time and will have to lay off lots of employees.. My Mom is also being forced to close her business that she's had going for 20 years and has 30 employees.. Life sucks... I say let them go under. if their products were truly as good as JD Power says they are, they shouldn't have a problem. Years of literally sleeping at the wheel while other automakers have been proving their products is to blame.
 

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AGREE!!!!!! I'm still driving my 1988 toyota pickup 4 cyl. w/ 240,000 miles on it. :D:

^^That breed of Toyota trucks were awesome.

I think a lot of our judgements are dependent on our use and style. I personally buy a truck (or car) that I intend to put 250,000+ miles on over ten years or more. It must be rugged enough for family use, and in the case of my trucks, tow, and offer me the chance to pull other people out of a ditch here and there (we live in blizzard country)

If I was a single person who wanted a new car always, turning in on a new lease every year or two, I'm sure I'd have different opinions on American cars.

So far, I have had great experiences with all of my American vehicles.

Put over 350,000 miles on my '81 diesel Jimmy, still ran great when I sold it - loved that beast!

Owned a gorgeous '90 Lincoln LSC for over 12 years that was nearly perfect in every way - beautiful car.

Currently own a Park Avenue, very luxurious for the price. We've put 250,000+ miles on it, is very well maintained, but has never had a major 'anything' happen. It still gets 27mpg average (I drive about 40 miles per day highway and in town combined)

Also currently own a monster 3/4 ton 454 GMC, and as much as I adore my beloved truck, I will not rave about gas mileage. She is ever-reliable though, and has pulled heavy loads through some white-knuckle conditions like a champ. When you live where the weather is precarious, and you can literally freeze to death within hours if you get stranded, you need a vehicle of this type. imo

Didn't mean to ramble, just wanted to share that for semi-luxury family type cars, and good old reliable hard-working trucks, it sure is hard to beat American made :D:
 
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