Survivalist Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,814 Posts
What do you think?
I think it is quite natural that the earth can not sustain such a huge population of humans and if millions of us didn't die each year we would have been extinct long before this. The circle of life.
 

·
I love this *****
Joined
·
33,879 Posts
Hal Lindsay Report on Food Shortage and God's Word

What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdVslqJFKqo
I've been standing on the belief that we are headed toward the end time tribulation. We need only pay close attention to the rapidly changing economic, political, and social structure of the world to easily recognize that we're headed toward what George Bush Sr. gleefully referred to as "The New World Order." The New World Order is a one-world government led by the very rich, powerful, and elite. This is not a new concept. There have been many attempts in the history of mankind to establish such a government. Early Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Alexander the Great, Napoleon, papal Rome, Hitler, Stalin, Great Britain, George Bush and his Skull and Bones buddies, and the list goes on.

Believe the book of Revelation or don't believe it. Anyone would do well to at least read it. We're most definitely headed toward a purely secular, global government who will partner up with a powerful religious group. The entire world population will suffer under this system of government but Christians will be the main target of its wrath. As described in Revelation, the beast system will be wroth with those who keep the Commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17

This powerful government will entirely control the world economy. That will include food, money, goods of all sorts, and people. Nobody will be permitted to buy or sell without first having taken a mark in the hand or forehead. Is this mark a computer chip or a barcode? I have my suspicions but I don't know for sure. There are dark times coming.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
9,294 Posts
Way to go Hal!

Hal Lindsay Report on Food Shortage and God's Word

What do you think?

I usually put very little stock in Hals (late great planet earth) words. I classed him with Tim La Haye and Jerry Jenkins (left behind series). Of course these mentioned authors feel they will be "raptured" away before TSHTF, and have made LOT'S of money (as SR made note of) in their fictional deceit.

Maybe some here believe the "secret rapture" scenario? Boy, are y'all in for a big surprise.

But, for three minutes, he spoke truth.

(Hal was also posted up in Jerusalem when the Y2K arrived...waiting for the "rapture")
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
Rapture?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The Biblical source for the belief of the Rapture. If this isn't it, what does this
mean to those that don't believe in a "Rapture"? Yes I know that the word
Rapture does not appear in the Bible.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
9,294 Posts
If you want to call meeting Yahshua in the air...

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The Biblical source for the belief of the Rapture. If this isn't it, what does this
mean to those that don't believe in a "Rapture"? Yes I know that the word
Rapture does not appear in the Bible.

"the rapture", I have no problem with that. It is the "secret" rapture teaching that I detest...a secret coming where only the saints are taken for--well who knows what that theory says now(3 1/2 years, 7 years) before the ACTUAL coming of Messiah at the LAST TRUMP (the verse you quoted).

He will come at the last trump and we will meet Him in the air...then begins the millennial reign of our King.
 

·
I love this *****
Joined
·
33,879 Posts
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The Biblical source for the belief of the Rapture. If this isn't it, what does this
mean to those that don't believe in a "Rapture"? Yes I know that the word
Rapture does not appear in the Bible.
When will the dead rise?

John 6:40, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:54, "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."


What is the "trump of God?" It's the last and final trump or the 7th trump of Revelation. The first 6 trumps announce the various stages of tribulation. The final trump announces Christ's return with His angels.

Revelation 11:15, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."


What happens upon Christ's return? The righteous remain while the wicked are "raptured" away. The word rapture can mean "to be seized by violence." Check out what happens in Matthew 13:39-43 upon Christ's return.

Matthew 13:39-43, "[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Are the "clouds" spoken of literal clouds that we see everyday in the sky or could that be a descriptive term for something more grand?

Revelation 19:11, "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."
Revelation 19:14, "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."


Could this huge heavenly army descending from heaven all dressed in white linen and riding white horses appear as a cloud in the eyes of men?

Question: Why have Christians throughout the ages had to face trials and tribulations but the Christians at the end get to skip all the excitement?

Two final verses for now.

Proverbs 2:21-22, "[21] For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
[22] But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."


Proverbs 10:29-30, "[29] The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
[30] The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth."

The rapture theory breeds complacency. Those who truly believe they will be raptured will not be ready for the persecution to come. Many will lose faith in Jesus Christ when they find that the rapture was a false doctrine.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Paradox and temu

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
Mark 13 14"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation'[a]standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

I am a "mid tribber" I am NOT complacent. The above pasage is what I base that
belief on, and there are others. When the day comes that it is against the law
to be a Christian, I hope there is enough evidence to convict me.
 

·
I love this *****
Joined
·
33,879 Posts
Mark 13 14"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation'[a]standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

I am a "mid tribber" I am NOT complacent. The above pasage is what I base that
belief on, and there are others. When the day comes that it is against the law
to be a Christian, I hope there is enough evidence to convict me.
The statement that the rapture theory breeds complacency is a general one and not necessarily aimed at anyone in particular. I'm happy that you haven't fallen into that trap.

My main contention is with the "pre-tribulation rapture" doctrine. The doctrine that essentially states that Christians shouldn't worry at all about the future, end time events because they will be raptured before those events affect them. Personally, I don't believe that Christians are going anywhere. I believe that Christ will return to earth and establish His Kingdom right here. "...Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

Revelation 21:10, "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"

Adam and Eve could have had eternal life. They were designed to inhabit the earth for eternity. I believe that Christ will return to earth, cleanse the earth and remove the "tares" or all those who offend and doeth iniquity, and establish His Kingdom right here on planet earth. The earth will be restored to its original Edenic conditions and we will be given a glorified body that feels no pain and is perfect.
 
  • Like
Reactions: temu

·
Banned
Joined
·
9,294 Posts
The other side of that coin...

Mark 13 14"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation'[a]standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 17How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

I am a "mid tribber" I am NOT complacent. The above pasage is what I base that
belief on, and there are others. When the day comes that it is against the law
to be a Christian, I hope there is enough evidence to convict me.


Here is a short study that addresses those passages pretty well. If nothing else, you would have to be looking for a dual fulfillment because it has already been fulfilled with Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD. In Daniel's prophecy (70 weeks), there are two debates...one imposes a "gap" theory in those weeks of over 1900 years and counting! The other finds fulfillment in the succession of weeks precisely as prophesied. One looks for an anti-christ, the other sees Yahshua as the fulfillment. It bears close scrutiny lest you be looking at anti-christ where Yahshua is meant!

The prophecy was surely LOCAL, and the destruction of Jerusalem was horrible...over 1 million killed or starved...cannabalism, etc. Modern wars can't compare to these numbers.

Concerning our Lord’s statement about the destruction of the temple, the disciples asked: “WHEN shall these things be? and WHAT SIGN will there be when these things shall come to pass?” (Luke 21:7). As we have seen, Jesus mentioned things of a general nature that would come to pass first. Now he gives THE sign — a specific sign that would let them know that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed. He said that they would see “the abomination of desolation” and when they saw this, they were to quickly flee, for the desolation of the city would be nigh.

Matthew: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) then let them that be in Judaea flee into the mountains” (24:15,16).

Mark: “When ye shall see the abomination of desolations spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains” (13:14).

Luke: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains . . . Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles” (21:20,21,24).

Now, step by step, let us notice what we are told in these parallel accounts:

1. We notice where Matthew and Mark record: ‘When ye shall see the abomination of DESOLATION . . . then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains”, Luke, in speaking of exactly the same thing, says: “When ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the DESOLATION thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains.” We see, then, that it was JERUSALEM that would become a DESOLATION.

We notice also that this “desolation” was that “which was spoken by Daniel the prophet.” Turning to Daniel 9, we find the passage in which Daniel spoke of this destruction: “And the people of the prince that shall come shall DESTROY the city and the sanctuary” (Dan. 9:26).

Therefore, by comparing the parallel accounts, by the fact that Jesus was answering questions about the overthrow of Jerusalem, and by our Lord’s reference to the prophecy of Daniel, it is evident that what was to become a “desolation” was JERUSALEM. There is no room for any misunderstanding here.

2. Looking again at the parallel accounts, we see that what Matthew and Mark refer to as the “abomination” that would make Jerusalem desolate, Luke (using plain language) shows that such would be armies — Gentile armies: “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with ARMIES, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh . . . Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles” (Lk. 21:20-24).

The word “abomination” is a word that refers to anything that is especially loathsome or detestable. Certainly this fits the feelings the inhabitants of Jerusalem would have toward an idol-worshipping Gentile army advancing to destroy their city! In fact, an army (coming to destroy) is an abomination to any people or nation. And, as history has repeatedly recorded, the work of armies so often results in desolation — destruction!

3. Matthew’s account says that the abomination (Gentile army) would “stand in the holy place” and adds the words: “Whoso readeth, let him understand.” Mark’s account, because it too is given in somewhat veiled language, includes the words: “Let him that readeth understand.” BUT, looking at Luke’s account of the same passage which is given in plain language, we read: ‘When ye see JERUSALEM compassed with armies . . .“ And because he gives the explanation, he does not include the phrase: “Let him that readeth understand.”

By letting the Bible be its own interpreter, then, we see that the term “holy place” (Mt. 24:15), is a reference to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is commonly referred to as the holy city (Mt. 27:53; Dan. 9:16; etc.). According to the prophecy, Gentile armies were to compass it and finally bring it to desolation.

The word translated “place” in the expression “holy place” in Matthew’s account is topos (see any Greek dictionary or Bible Concordance such as Strong’s, Young’s, etc.). The word topos means simply a locality. Such words as topical and topography are derived from it. It is used in such scriptural expressions as “a desert place”, “dry places”, etc. (It is not the same term as that which is used in describing the holy of holies of the temple.)

What is called the holy place is explained by Luke as the area that would be occupied by armies surrounding Jerusalem. The Matthew Henry Commentary has well put it: “Jerusalem was the holy city, Canaan the holy land, the Mt. Moriah, which lay about Jerusalem, for its nearness to the temple was, they thought, in a particular manner holy ground; on the country lying round about Jerusalem the Roman army was encamped, that was the abomination that made desolate.”1

These pagan armies were to “compass” the city (Luke); they would take a “stand” there (Matthew) — the word stand indicating rebellion or hostility. Examples of the word used in this way may be seen in the following:

“A king of fierce countenance.., shall stand up” (Dan. 8:23,25). “A mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion . . . and when he shall stand up . . .” (11:3,4). Another will “stand up in his estate, and shall come with an army” (verse 7). “Then shall stand up . . . a raiser of taxes . . . and in his estate shall stand up a vile person” (verses 20,21). A king “shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand . . .” (verse 25). Concerning persecution against the cause of Christ, we read in Acts 4:26: “The kings of the earth stood up and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord . . .”

We cite these references to show how the word “stand” is used of those who assume a place of leadership or authority to rebel or fight. And in the same sense, the “abomination” — the pagan armies — were to take a stand against Jerusalem and compass it about to destroy it!

Taking then the sum of what Jesus said in this connection, we understand that Jerusalem was to become a desolation; one stone would not be left upon another. Jesus also revealed that this destruction would be caused by “armies.” Jerusalem would be “trodden down of Gentiles”, such idol-worshipping Gentile armies quite correctly being referred to as an “abomination.” Any way we look at it, according to the words of Christ, Jerusalem was marked for destruction by the hands of her enemies.

A few days after Jesus had mentioned these things, however, he commissioned his disciples to wait in this very city — to be endued with power from on high. He explained that they would receive power after that the Holy Spirit had come upon them and they would be witnesses unto him throughout the world, including Jerusalem, where their work would begin (Acts 1:8; Lk. 24:49).

But if the city was to be destroyed, what about our Lord’s disciples that would be there as a witness to that city? Were they to perish with the others — with those who had rejected Christ and cried, “Crucify him, crucify him”? Or would there be a way of escape? According to the scriptures, their witness in that city was to continue up to a certain point — only until they saw a certain sign — and then they were to FLEE and escape the horrid destruction destined for that city and people!

As is well known, the city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by Roman armies in 70 A.D. But before this happened, in obedience to the warning Jesus had given, every Christian fled and thus escaped the awful wrath that befell that city and country! The account of what happened is truly amazing!

In 65 A.D., Florus, the worse of Caesar’s procurators, assumed control of Judea. He did things which brought the Jews to a place of violent rebellion — a rebellion too great for him to handle. Consequently, another man, Cestius Gallus, took over. Marching his armies into Palestine, a number of towns were subdued and he advanced toward Jerusalem. After camping for three days near the city, he began the assault.2

Seeing Jerusalem compassed with Gentile armies, the disciples now knew its desolation was nigh — according to the words of Christ. They also knew this was the sign to flee! But HOW could they flee when the city was surrounded? This had not been explained in the prophecy. But let us see what happened.

Cestius and his armies were being very successful in their battle against Jerusalem. So much so, in fact, that the Jews were ready to give up and shortly would have opened their gates in surrender — thus saving the city and temple. But prophecy had it that these things would be destroyed! When Cestius would have almost taken the city, suddenly — as Josephus says, “without any reason in the world” — he withdrew his troops and departed! This filled the Jews with courage and they pursued the retreating army, inflicting on it a major disaster.3

With the retreat of the armies that compassed Jerusalem, there was a brief interval before the armies would return and destroy the city. And in this brief interval, there was time for the Christians to flee. What happened is well summed up in the words of Thomas Newton:

We learn from ecclesiastical histories, that at this juncture all who believed in Christ departed Jerusalem, and removed to Pella and other places beyond the river Jordan; so that they all marvelously escaped the general shipwreck of their countrymen; and we do not read anywhere that so much as one of them perished in the destruction of Jerusalem.4

Adam Clarke wrote: “it is very remarkable that not a single Christian perished in the destruction of Jerusalem though there were many there when Cestius Gallus invested the city.”5 Truly it was a marvelous escape! What confirmation of our Lord’s words! What an amazing fulfillment of prophecy!

The Christians having now made their escape, the desolation of Jerusalem was nigh. After Cestius Gallus had retreated with his troops, Nero then ordered Vespasian to take over. He, in turn, ordered his son, Titus, to go to Alexandria and bring the 5th and 10th legions from Egypt — to subdue Judea. But a crisis developed in Rome causing Vespasian to return there (where in 70 A. D. he was hailed as the new Emperor) and the job of capturing Jerusalem was left in the hands of Titus and his armies.6

We see, then, that in the place where Matthew and Mark use the somewhat veiled expression “abomination of desolation”, Luke (using plain language) shows that such was to be Gentile armies compassing Jerusalem to bring it to desolation. All three of the gospel accounts before mentioning this sign begin with the words: “When ye see . . .” and follow this with the words: “Then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains”, etc. There can be no mistake that these are parallel accounts. By simply letting the Bible explain itself, we have seen that the “desolation” was to be the destruction of Jerusalem (city and temple); the “abomination of desolation” referred to heathen armies that would bring about the desolation; and when these armies would be seen compassing Jerusalem, the disciples were to flee.

This interpretation is solidly built on the Bible. With it, the gospel accounts are complimentary, not contradictory. It is confirmed by history. It glorifies Christ, for it plainly demonstrates how his words were fulfilled and his warning heeded — thus providing a great deliverance and blessing for the Christian people of that time!

Having set forth what we sincerely believe to be the exact and only fulfillment of our Lord’s words, we must now consider an interpretation which has become widely believed, especially in this century. We have reference to the teaching that the “abomination of desolation” is an idol to be placed in the holy of holies of a rebuilt Jewish temple — possibly an idol of the antichrist or the antichrist himself. This interpretation has it that the “abomination of desolation” is yet FUTURE!

An example of the futurist interpretation is seen in the following: “The Jews — who will have.., restored Herod’s Temple, and be in league with Antichrist — will have a visit by the False Prophet who shall bring an image of the Antichrist into Jerusalem and wheel it into the temple . . . When this image of the Antichrist is taken into the Jewish temple, that will be the sign Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24, the Abomination of Desolation.”7

Another futurist writer says: “This image will be placed in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and is the ‘abomination of desolation’ to which the Lord made reference in his Olivet discourse.”8 According to the futurist position, the abomination of desolation will be “an idol placed in the holy of holies of the temple during the reign of Antichrist.”9

In disagreeing with the futurist interpretation, it is certainly not our intention to treat lightly the beliefs of fine men of God who hold this position. Nevertheless, we feel that the futurist interpretation will not stand up under investigation.

1. The setting up of an idol in the sanctuary is something the enemy could not do until such a time as the temple would be in the enemies’ possession. Since the magnificent temple would no doubt be the last thing to be yielded to the enemy in battle, by this time the city would have already been captured and it would be too late for the disciples to flee! Obviously then, this could not be the sign to flee. In order for something to be a warning for the disciples to escape, it would have to come before the capture of the city — not something to take place afterward!

In view of this, an idol in the holy of holies could not be the sign Jesus referred to. But the presence of heathen armies compassing Jerusalem could be — and was — the sign, such happening before the overthrow of the city (as we have seen).

2. The very prophecy indicates that the “abomination” would destroy the city and the temple — would make it desolate. This is exactly what the heathen armies did. But with the teaching that the “abomination” is to be an idol set up in the temple, there is nothing but contradiction. How could the abomination be an idol set up in the temple, when the temple was to be destroyed by the abomination? An idol could not be set up in the temple if the temple was destroyed. It should be pointed out also, that while idols are, of course, abominable, they are not desolators! It is armies that make desolate, not a powerless idol!

3. The “abomination” that would make desolate was to be something that could be SEEN by the inhabitants of Judea and Jerusalem. “When you SEE the abomination”; that is, “When you SEE Jerusalem compassed with armies”, then, “let them that are in Judea flee into the mountains.” It is evident that Jesus was not talking about an idol in the holy of holies, for such could not be SEEN by the population of Jerusalem and Judea. Only the high priest entered the holy of holies. None of the ordinary Jews would dare enter there.

It was not an idol in the Jewish holy of holies that destroyed the city and temple! It was not an idol in the holy of holies that was seen by the population of Jerusalem! When the disciples fled into the mountains of Judea, it had nothing to do with any idol whatsoever!

On the other hand, it was pagan armies that destroyed the city and temple. It was armies which were seen by the people, and it was the compassing of Jerusalem by armies that warned the disciples to flee!

The futurist interpretation regarding the abomination of desolation must teach that the Jewish temple will be rebuilt — in order to have a place for the abominable idol to be placed. But we feel this is a very unsound form of interpretation, for it completely ignores the context! What temple was the subject of our Lord’s Olivet discourse? Was Jesus talking about that temple of his day or a rebuilt temple 2,000 years later? Notice: “And as he [Jesus] went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?” (Mk. 13:1-4; also Mt. 24; Lk. 21).

In this passage, Jesus was speaking of the temple of his day; he talked about the stones which it contained, had the disciples look at it, answered questions about it! Are we to assume that he was not actually speaking of THAT temple at all, but of a “rebuilt” temple — a DIFFERENT temple, a temple made of DIFFERENT stones, a temple of about 2,000 years later? We believe the answer is evident.

Whether the Jews will build another temple in Palestine is not the issue. The point is that Jesus was speaking of the temple of his day and it was that temple which was to be destroyed by heathen armies — a prophecy which was fulfilled in 70 A. D.

Concerning the destruction of the temple, the disciples asked when it would be destroyed and what sign would be given in warning. The Bible says: “And Jesus ANSWERED . . .” But those who think the prophecy of Matthew 24 refers to a future temple are at a complete loss to show one verse in this chapter where Jesus ever answered these questions! The disciples asked about the destruction of the temple that stood in Jerusalem, and then (according to the futurist interpretation) Jesus started talking about something altogether different — a temple that was yet 2,000 years in the future! If this is true, then Jesus never answered the very questions the Bible says he answered!

On the other hand, when we understand that the abomination that would make desolate was heathen armies that would destroy Jerusalem, there is harmony. Then, and only then, did Jesus really answer what he was asked.

The teaching that the abomination of desolation is something yet future, not only requires a future and different temple, but such a temple — instead of being destroyed — is pictured as a place where the antichrist would set up an idol to be worshipped. If so, instead of the temple being destroyed, it would be preserved as a shrine of false religion.

Obviously these ideas cannot possibly fit in with the context of Matthew 24 or the other accounts. To try to force a preserved temple (instead of one that was to be destroyed) into the Olivet discourse is to put something there for which there is no basis whatsoever.

In view of these things, we reject the idea that the abomination of desolation is something yet future. It was fulfilled in those events surrounding the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 A. D. — fulfilled fully and completely.

Continuing now, we read the scriptures which told the disciples to flee.

Matthew: “Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains; Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of the house; neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day” (24:16-20).

Mark: “Then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains; and let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein to take anything out of his house. And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in winter” (13:14-18).

Luke: “Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries [fields or farms] enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!” (21:21-23).

When the time came, the disciples were to flee without delay. They were not to try to take their possessions with them. Such actions might have been questioned and the escape hindered.

They were told to pray that their flight would not be in winter lest the elements delay and hinder; neither on the sabbath. Making their escape on the sabbath, could have easily brought them into suspicion by those who held that only a short distance (at a slow pace) could be traveled on that day. Naturally, there would also be problems for those with small children.

The area from which they were to flee was Judea and especially Jerusalem. They were to flee into the mountains. The setting is definitely Palestine, and the time — as indicated by the prophecy itself, as well as the historical fulfillment — was back in the first century!

Not understanding that the “fleeing into the mountains” has already taken place, William Blackstone, in 1935, sent workers to Petra where they placed Hebrew Bibles (encased in copper boxes) in some of the caves in that area. He believed the Jews would flee into these mountains during the tribulation period and read his Bibles!

Another futurist writer says that the passage under consideration refers to “atomic warfare”, that safety will only be found in the mountains for those in Judea, and that when they flee to the mountains, they should not take their clothing because it will be “dangerously radio active.” The “woe” to those with child and that give suck, is taken to mean that due to atomic explosions, even the mothers’ milk may be “harmfully radio active.” The verse that says, “Pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the sabbath day”, is interpreted to mean that the weekends, especially in winter, will be times of the greatest danger. It is pointed out that Hitler chose weekends for his big surprises and that the Japanese did so at Pearl Harbor. Finally, the writer says: “if a surprise attack comes, therefore, it is most likely to be on a weekend. It would be good insurance to be particularly well prepared at such times, especially in winter”!10

In all due respect to fine men who have taught such things, we must say that only by taking this passage out of its context and by minimizing (or ignoring) the historical fulfillment, can these words be thus applied.

Why were the disciples told to flee out of Jerusalem and Judea prior to 70 A.D.? The passage continues with the explanation: “For then shall be great tribulation”!
 
  • Like
Reactions: offroadgreg

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,825 Posts
Hi seven7,
the main problem of the mid trib view as I see it ( not had time yet to read temu's post ) is that when you see the persecution begin you start counting 3 1/2 years and bingo. But the snatching away ( harpazo ) will be as a thief in the night and no man will know the time. If we can count down the days, that is incorrect.
The snatching away of believers past and contemporary will be IMHO between the 6th and 7 seals of Revelation on the Day of the Lord, after the final trump.
 

·
just doin my job..
Joined
·
421 Posts
very good write up of prophecy and its fullfillment Temu. thanks!

this Hal Lindsay guy has some good points about the food shortage and how the fuel crisis has had an influence on it. I've never heard of him before but he seems to be onto something on this topic anyways..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
Hi seven7,
the main problem of the mid trib view as I see it ( not had time yet to read temu's post ) is that when you see the persecution begin you start counting 3 1/2 years and bingo. But the snatching away ( harpazo ) will be as a thief in the night and no man will know the time. If we can count down the days, that is incorrect.
The snatching away of believers past and contemporary will be IMHO between the 6th and 7 seals of Revelation on the Day of the Lord, after the final trump.
Not a date setter. And if I see this happen in my life time I would be to
busy to count the days. When exactly would you start the count anyway?
I believe no man knows the day. We will know the season. Getting close
though wouldn't you say?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,825 Posts
Totally agree.
I used to be mid trib too.
I do agree in part with Temu, however Hebraic prophecy is a recapitulating pattern and there is yet to be a future fulfillment which will be at the last trumpet etc. The tribulation will be again IMHO the period of Satan's wrath as his time finally reaches his endgame. Then will come the day of the Lord prophesied everywhere again as I said I believe this will be between the 6 and 7th seal etc.
Look up.....
God Bless.
para
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,825 Posts
Forgot antichrist and co will establish a mid east peace deal, it will be 42 months ( 3 1/2 years ) from there.
 

·
I love this *****
Joined
·
33,879 Posts
Totally agree.
I used to be mid trib too.
I do agree in part with Temu, however Hebraic prophecy is a recapitulating pattern and there is yet to be a future fulfillment which will be at the last trumpet etc. The tribulation will be again IMHO the period of Satan's wrath as his time finally reaches his endgame. Then will come the day of the Lord prophesied everywhere again as I said I believe this will be between the 6 and 7th seal etc.
Look up.....
God Bless.
para
I agree with this statement. I do believe, as temu has stated, that much prophecy has taken place since the time of Christ and I do believe that the papal system is the "whore of Babylon." However, that system still exists today and Christ has yet to take the literal throne on earth so there must be more to the prophetic story.

2 Thessalonians 1:4, "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:"

There were to be many persecutions and tribulations (plural). I don't believe that planet earth has seen anything like the Great Tribulation to come.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Paradox

·
Banned
Joined
·
9,294 Posts
And a distinction must be made between...

Totally agree.
I used to be mid trib too.
I do agree in part with Temu, however Hebraic prophecy is a recapitulating pattern and there is yet to be a future fulfillment which will be at the last trumpet etc. The tribulation will be again IMHO the period of Satan's wrath as his time finally reaches his endgame. Then will come the day of the Lord prophesied everywhere again as I said I believe this will be between the 6 and 7th seal etc.
Look up.....
God Bless.
para

tribulation and the plagues of Yahweh. Tribulation is MAN-MADE, man-induced...the plagues are wrath where definite similarities are struck between the seals and the plagues.

Of course the saints are sealed before the S really HTF.

I have an EXCELLENT study on the 70 weeks if anyone is interested.

Shabbat Shalom!
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top