[VINCENT]

More hear-say. Does anyone have an actual documented account of ammo being used as "currency"? The ammo-as-currency meme has taken hold in forums like these because of survival fiction, but I cannot find any actual real world examples of such a thing ever happening. People may barter/trade it, sure, but that doesn't come anywhere close to currency.

it just doesnt seem like you want to believe reports of this happening, so i will offer up a tidbit for you from first hand knowledge. as a drug dealer in las angeles in the 1990's it was normal to trade drugs for guns and ammo. that is infact a form of currancy. so now you can stop your nay-saying

 

[deep woods]

A lot of the value in arms is missed here. If you know how to really handle a weapon and are a good shot, people will respect you and ask advice, or anyone with bad intentions will have a tendency to leave you alone, if they know you, or have heard of you. And I speak from experience, no need to say more.

 

[Deadmeat99]

it just doesnt seem like you want to believe reports of this happening, so i will offer up a tidbit for you from first hand knowledge. as a drug dealer in las angeles in the 1990's it was normal to trade drugs for guns and ammo. that is infact a form of currancy. so now you can stop your nay-saying

Barter goods do not equal currency.

 

[Mugwump]

bullets are like silver , they are cheap and can be used for daily transactions in SHTF.

And what caliber "bullets" are these? Think that "Bullet Banks" will spring up where people can go in to deposit, barter, sell and trade bullets? Then maybe up the street and around the corner we'll find a "Firing Pin and Extractor Spring" Trading Post.

How about having some Silver and Gold coins of recognized denominations and metal content? Might that be easier to use as a means of exchange? Need to figure that even with the established government authority that originally created the piece extinct, the Silver and Gold coin is still MONEY being backed by it's own metal content.

Recently purchased three (3) Spanish Silver 8-Reale coins minted in Mexico during years 1798, 1804 and 1809. The coins were found in a box containing over a thousand others in the wreck of a ship that went down in a hurricane in 1810. That shipwreck was over 2 miles down on the ocean floor. Despite being deep under the sea for nearly 200-years, the quality of these silver coins range from extremely fine to almost uncirculated. Fact is . . . silver has many exceptional properties and will tarnish but not rust or rot.

Long after every one alive today is gone and forgotten, our silver and gold coins will still exist in one form or another. Centuries from now, the very same precious metal we hold today will be bought, sold, purloined and traded by generations to come.

 

[petergunn]

^ now that is just way cool

 

[VINCENT]

Barter goods do not equal currency.

any form of accepted payment equals currency. credit cards are a form of currency. you pay for your goods every day with them. they are refered to as "electronic currency" because it doesnt meet "your" definition , doesnt meant it isnt a currency to other people. at times in this world, animals have been currency, shells have been currency, PEOPLE have been currency. its all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Mugwump]

any form of accepted payment equals currency

Barter is far superior to either electronic "perceived value" currency or paper fiat notes. Both of the later are backed by good faith and trust which is indeterminable, unreliable and at this point, mostly foolish.

In barter, a box of shotgun shells in exchange for a canned ham is a hard deal. Unlike either electronic currency and paper money, both the ammo and canned food are tangible with an on the spot determinable value. The paper dollar only has a speculative or unknown value of what somebody that day thinks it might be worth. Electronic monetary exchange is even worse because it only "represents" a questionable value of fiat paper dollar that is backed by nothing but maybe "faith". An Electronic Magnetic Pulse detonation with 2,000 miles will settle any electronic money argument and it's goodbye to cyber bucks.

Known silver coins on the other-hand such as old U.S. pre-1965 90% silver, American Silver Eagles and Canada Maple Leaf bullion coins are not only MONEY but also tangible trade asset. The MONEY coins back themselves making bartering more fluid and better especially is difficult social times.

But for those who insist . . .by all means . . .keep shoveling those paper dollars into that interest bearing PayPal or other electronic bank account. When the time comes, I might have some hard metal assets for exchange if there's something of actual value available to trade.

 

[RedWoods]

I believe you are right. Checks and all those dollar markers created in digital form by the govt are just as spendable as currency and coin.

All money is really just barter in a way. Anything we are willing to accept in payment for our services or our goods is currency. When we take currency in trade we are depending on being able to convert it to goods.

Who cares what the theorists call anything.

Red

any form of accepted payment equals currency. credit cards are a form of currency. you pay for your goods every day with them. they are refered to as "electronic currency" because it doesnt meet "your" definition , doesnt meant it isnt a currency to other people. at times in this world, animals have been currency, shells have been currency, PEOPLE have been currency. its all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[bcvojak]

It depends. . .

As others have said, you don't want to sell to or trade with someone who might use the guns/ammo against you.

In general, regardless of what your trading, it's best if people don't know here you live. This applies to guns, ammo, gold, water, food, medicine, slave girls. . whatever

That said, let me present some scenarios. I will not push one over another since I don't know what the future can hold.

- Total collapse of civilization (super volcano, plague, EMP.): Deep cuts in population. The classic Mad Max situation. Guns might be very plentiful in N. America, but ammo could be the real value.

- Fast Economic collapse: Crime will go up and odds are the government will become more controlling in response to the crisis, as the government doesn't want to lose control of the country/state/county.

Expect greater gun and ammo control. Mandatory registration of guns. ammo, owners, and tight controls of new sales, possibly leading to bans of certain weapons and ammo. Here ammo again would be of value, and so might guns. But you could be force to trade in the illegal markets which adds risk.

- Slow economic unraveling: Frog in the pot scenario. Guns and ammo still available, but every year the restrictions become more obnoxious, along with ever increasing bans on "evil" guns, magazines, and "cop killing" ammo. (think England), In this situation your guns and ammo could easily lose value as it becomes more dangerous to possess restricted weapons.

- No SHTF: Some guns go up in price and some guns go down in price. Guns and ammo are readily available.

Which will happen?

Make your choice and live with the consequences. .

 

[sierra skier]

Many if not most of the restrictions you refer to above are already i effect in California.

Safe gun list, 10 day waiting period, registration of all handguns and 'assault rifles', full capacity magazines banned and way too many more to list.

 

[VINCENT]

It depends. . .

-- Slow economic unraveling: Frog in the pot scenario. Guns and ammo still available, but every year the restrictions become more obnoxious, along with ever increasing bans on "evil" guns, magazines, and "cop killing" ammo. (think England), In this situation your guns and ammo could easily lose value as it becomes more dangerous to possess restricted weapons.

we're already here at this point

 

[Deadmeat99]

any form of accepted payment equals currency. credit cards are a form of currency. you pay for your goods every day with them. they are refered to as "electronic currency" because it doesnt meet "your" definition , doesnt meant it isnt a currency to other people. at times in this world, animals have been currency, shells have been currency, PEOPLE have been currency. its all in the eye of the beholder.

"My" definition of currency is the accepted definition. Currency isn't just what you deem it to be, it must have very specific properties. Barter goods ARE NOT currency. Bullets are not, nor will they EVER fit the definition of, currency. We've had this conversation many times before on this forum, and if you'd like to rehash it, I suggest you try the search function. Unfortunately, the ridiculous "bullets = SHTF cash" crowd continues to read survival fiction and then come here to profess their newfound beliefs. Believe me, we've heard this nonsense before, and I'm tired of rehasing why they are incorrect. If you think stockpiling .22LR is your ticket to end-of-the-world prosperity, have at it.

 

[Mugwump]

Many if not most of the restrictions you refer to above are already i effect in California. Safe gun list, 10 day waiting period, registration of all handguns and 'assault rifles', full capacity magazines banned and way too many more to list.

This is the part of these discussions that I totally get lost on. To my understanding, the stage is a " survival / SHTF " scenario where social and lawful structure is either under serious pressure or has collapsed.

If that's the situation . . .then who the hell cares about government restrictions and 10-day waiting periods? In such a case, non of the nonsense authoritarian edicts matter. Screw em! Buy, sell and trade firearms or anything else as one pleases among yourselves. Do whatever is required to protect yourself, family, friends and property.

Recall being on another WEB site where the discussion had to do with radio communications during desperate times of societal disintegration. Survivalist people were worried about how to get FCC licenses to operate the 2-meter, 440, 6-meter HAM band handy-talkie radios now stashed away among their preparedness supplies. License? License? I don't need no stinking license!

Had a HAM radio license since 1988, but didn't bother to renew upon expiration about three years ago. First off, the renewal process like all other government licensing has become far too intrusive. Also, to use a radio call sign these days is to surrender one's privacy. The name and address of the FCC radio license holder is instantly available public record for all to see from the FCC Internet database.

If there's a break down of law and order, then who's to stop people from bartering guns or using the HAM radio bands? Just press the button baby and start talking!

Should the need arise, I for one will do whatever needs to be done.

 

[JeremyIsraeliPrepper]

This is the part of these discussions that I totally get lost on. To my understanding, the stage is a " survival / SHTF " scenario where social and lawful structure is either under serious pressure or has collapsed.

If that's the situation . . .then who the hell cares about government restrictions and 10-day waiting periods? In such a case, non of the nonsense authoritarian edicts matter. Screw em! Buy, sell and trade firearms or anything else as one pleases among yourselves. Do whatever is required to protect yourself, family, friends and property.

i think he means that stockpiling the guns now , with the current laws , is difficult . after SHTF its another thing.

 

[jofus13]

Personally, I'm stocking up on Twinkies.

Along with a little ammo, etc.

 

[VINCENT]

"My" definition of currency is the accepted definition. Currency isn't just what you deem it to be, it must have very specific properties. Barter goods ARE NOT currency. Bullets are not, nor will they EVER fit the definition of, currency. We've had this conversation many times before on this forum, and if you'd like to rehash it, I suggest you try the search function. Unfortunately, the ridiculous "bullets = SHTF cash" crowd continues to read survival fiction and then come here to profess their newfound beliefs. Believe me, we've heard this nonsense before, and I'm tired of rehasing why they are incorrect. If you think stockpiling .22LR is your ticket to end-of-the-world prosperity, have at it.

wow your grouchy. and you also think your opinion(and it is YOUR opinion) is the only correct answer. if you doent want to "rehash it", then dont be part of the current conversation. it wont hurt you to not be involved. your definition being the accepted definition. well thats questionable because it would seem by looking at this tread that many other have a diferent definition and your is in the minority. if a puca shell could at one point in history=currancy, then there is also the chance a .22 rond will too eventually. for that matter a .22 shell that is empty could also.

 

[aramchek]

I say you're both off-base. You're hanging too many hopes on "currency", as if it were the only sensible way to obtain goods or services. There's always been a barter economy. The real name of the game isn't whether XYZ qualifies as some pure/academic definition of fungible currency, unless your (you're, for those who know their grammar) an economist. But rather you have some leverage, in terms of goods that you own, or a skill/service you can provide, to obtain something you need. Whether it qualifies as "currency" is probably immaterial in a survival situation.

I'll agree that bullets=barter is an extremely narrow/odd commodity. Most people aren't 20 year-old males with bad aim who live in game-rich areas and need a hundred bullets to take down a dozen deer every week.

If I were to hedge my bets in a barter economy, I'd look at the whole population. Men, women, young, old. But especially I'd look at things which are in broadly high demand, but not widely available locally. The people who've done the best in pre-modern times were merchants who had connections across long distance: furs, spice, silk road, etc.

"My" definition of currency is the accepted definition. Currency isn't just what you deem it to be, it must have very specific properties. Barter goods ARE NOT currency. Bullets are not, nor will they EVER fit the definition of, currency. We've had this conversation many times before on this forum, and if you'd like to rehash it, I suggest you try the search function. Unfortunately, the ridiculous "bullets = SHTF cash" crowd continues to read survival fiction and then come here to profess their newfound beliefs. Believe me, we've heard this nonsense before, and I'm tired of rehasing why they are incorrect. If you think stockpiling .22LR is your ticket to end-of-the-world prosperity, have at it.

 

[jofus13]

When I was a wee lad, my grandmother was postmaster in a very small rural post office, and also ran a country general store in the same building (when the gov't allowed that, I don't believe they allow other businesses in a post office now).

Anyway, this store/post office had been in our family since the 1800's. I was messing around in the back one time on some old shelves and came across an old ledger, with dates from late 1890's into early 1900's, that was kept to keep track of peoples' running tabs and how they paid them off.

It was pretty cool to see one, how much (how little) things cost, and two, how people paid off their tabs. Rarely was it with money, but more often it was with barter, either livestock (chickens was a popular one), goods or services (such as a load of fire wood, etc.), and stuff like that.

I think my mom still has that book somewhere, I need to find it and take a closer look at it....heck, we may be back to that system someday :|

 

[jimnan88]

Didn't know if this should be in the Firearms thread or not. I thought here was best since we're talking about it in a financial sense.

Now that Gold and Silver are uncomfortably high as far as buying any, I'm thinking of other things that are still relatively low. Guns, for example. Would they make sense to buy and hold onto as a means or storing wealth? Here's my reasoning:

The dollar is collapsing. Dollars are used to buy things. So things that keep their value would be a good store of wealth, and guns seem to fit that bill. So when the dollar drops in value, it takes more dollars to buy the same guns, which means the guns are now worth more dollars.

BUT, and there's always a "but", I'd like to know (if what I said above is true) why guns haven't really increased in price all that much like PM's have. A Glock doesn't cost significantly more than it used to when it first came out. During that time, Gold has gone up 500%.

So what do you think? Guns as a store of wealth and alternative to PM's? And I'm talking about common firearms like Glocks, etc. as opposed to collector editions or full autos.

Also in a collapsing economy guns are easy to liquidate, where as gold and silver has no immediate value. Guns, bullets, food, gasoline, medical supplies, etc. have immediate value for barter and trade.
Gold and silver probably have to best long term value, that is to say, people will always need a way to save wealth and not have it take up the whole basement to do so.
The other thing to think about and remember is inflation- Gun dealers know the normal persons will spends between $400- $1000 for a gun, with inflation guns being made of raw materials and a commoditiy market that is spiralling out of control. The materials will keep getting cheaper, and cheaper. so the gun you buy today will have more vaue in the future than the one you buy 2 years from now. I hope the reader can follow my thoughts here.
In other words a rifle made of good material today say a Remington 700 fro $700 in the future that same rifle will be $850 and remington will make a new model the XXX made of crappier materials to keep the cost within the pain zone of most people.

Surplus guns are always a good buy for this reason, the materials of most are better than the median firearm today.

 

[VINCENT]

When I was a wee lad, my grandmother was postmaster in a very small rural post office, and also ran a country general store in the same building (when the gov't allowed that, I don't believe they allow other businesses in a post office now).
QUOTE]

the gas station right next door to my work is also a post office. its the only time i've ever seen a post office operated out of another business. its strange to see people mailing a package, and buying beer, smokes, and a blunt.