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Look I can't say much for the sites as I haven't used them. however I will make this point.

While eotech is great, most other optics are round for a reason. This because our eyes naturally center things easier in a circle, then squares triangles etc. Eotech got around this because of the nature of optics and adding the circle. Regardless your eye will do better with a ghost ring etc then this gimmic.

Maybe there is something to it, but it looks like a dumb sales trick.
 

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Look I can't say much for the sites as I haven't used them. however I will make this point.

While eotech is great, most other optics are round for a reason. This because our eyes naturally center things easier in a circle, then squares triangles etc. Eotech got around this because of the nature of optics and adding the circle. Regardless your eye will do better with a ghost ring etc then this gimmic.

Maybe there is something to it, but it looks like a dumb sales trick.
Reading the scientific papers is enlightening. Reading the comments by LEOs is encouraging. Mike Conti, who wrote "Police Pistolcraft" is well respected and not known as a shill. Read the chapter in his book about Hexsite.

I have a scientific/engineering background. If the sites were available for my M&P I would already have them installed.

My advice... keep an open mind until field reports are available. There are quite a few installed on LEO weapons.
 

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Reading the scientific papers is enlightening. Reading the comments by LEOs is encouraging. Mike Conti, who wrote "Police Pistolcraft" is well respected and not known as a shill. Read the chapter in his book about Hexsite.

I have a scientific/engineering background. If the sites were available for my M&P I would already have them installed.

My advice... keep an open mind until field reports are available. There are quite a few installed on LEO weapons.
Look I am not saying its awful, but it looks like a redesign of the round ghost ring sights they tried to sell several years ago.

It's not a circle so it will take longer to focus then say a ring. It isn't anything really that new and has been tested, and passed up by generally every operator, police, and self defense instructor on the planet. Frankly I can't think of a major name besides Mike Conti (if he is even that great of a source which he might be) that has endorsed this or the older models in ages.

Frankly ghost ring sights fall into there prime with a longer sight radius such as rifles and shotguns. That alone should pretty much bring to bear why this wasn't the brightest idea. Hell Ameri Glo made some with tritium and they really haven't flown off the shelf.

Simple logic makes perceive this is pretty damn gimmicky just from simple knowledge of how poor ghost rings work on short weapons (like pistols), and the hex makes it just a tad bit worse.

Now if you can bring some better data great but the article was more of a lackluster history with, the words free thinking and innovation. Now I am not saying he is one of the payed for authors, but that wasn't a good review at all.
 

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Wilddieb
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Reading the scientific papers is enlightening. Reading the comments by LEOs is encouraging. Mike Conti, who wrote "Police Pistolcraft" is well respected and not known as a shill. Read the chapter in his book about Hexsite.

I have a scientific/engineering background. If the sites were available for my M&P I would already have them installed.

My advice... keep an open mind until field reports are available. There are quite a few installed on LEO weapons.
Fact: rear sight is bulky. That can cause problems when drawing, not so with a duty holster, but for the folks who carry concealed. Therefore I consider it as a no-go for me. Besides that, they look so damn ugly.

Want to upgrade? Get Standard Mepros instead.
 

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Look I am not saying its awful, but it looks like a redesign of the round ghost ring sights they tried to sell several years ago.

It's not a circle so it will take longer to focus then say a ring. It isn't anything really that new and has been tested, and passed up by generally every operator, police, and self defense instructor on the planet. Frankly I can't think of a major name besides Mike Conti (if he is even that great of a source which he might be) that has endorsed this or the older models in ages.

Frankly ghost ring sights fall into there prime with a longer sight radius such as rifles and shotguns. That alone should pretty much bring to bear why this wasn't the brightest idea. Hell Ameri Glo made some with tritium and they really haven't flown off the shelf.

Simple logic makes perceive this is pretty damn gimmicky just from simple knowledge of how poor ghost rings work on short weapons (like pistols), and the hex makes it just a tad bit worse.

Now if you can bring some better data great but the article was more of a lackluster history with, the words free thinking and innovation. Now I am not saying he is one of the payed for authors, but that wasn't a good review at all.
All of us are entitled to our own opinions. However, we are not entitled to our own facts. A careful reading of the papers and Conti's article may not change your opinion, but will certainly make you better informed.
 

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Fact: rear sight is bulky. That can cause problems when drawing, not so with a duty holster, but for the folks who carry concealed. Therefore I consider it as a no-go for me. Besides that, they look so damn ugly.

Want to upgrade? Get Standard Mepros instead.
Considering I conceal carry with an attached weapon light, I doubt that the HexSite would add any inconvenience. :D:



 

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Look I can't say much for the sites as I haven't used them. however I will make this point.

While eotech is great, most other optics are round for a reason. This because our eyes naturally center things easier in a circle, then squares triangles etc. Eotech got around this because of the nature of optics and adding the circle. Regardless your eye will do better with a ghost ring etc then this gimmic.

Maybe there is something to it, but it looks like a dumb sales trick.

Most pros use the mepro sights.I dont mess with none of it cus i dont care if i hit the guy in the gut or chest.
 

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Wilddieb
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All of us are entitled to our own opinions. However, we are not entitled to our own facts. A careful reading of the papers and Conti's article may not change your opinion, but will certainly make you better informed.
Regarding your post one could think that this "advertisement" [the article of Conti] in a gun magazine is a scientific essay.

Did they make an evaluation about the added value? Did they compare the Hexsight to other sights? What kind of user groups tested the sights? Did Conti receive money for writing the article?:rolleyes:

In fact, articles in gun magazines are no science, especially when someone is trying to sell a new product. If there would be some kind of research or testing behind it, there would be numerous possibilities to publish the article in a scientific journal or attend a conference. :rolleyes:

Guys, if you want to put unnecessary crap onto your guns, fine. It is your decision... :thumb: That is called freedom of choice.

HowardCohodas said:
There are quite a few installed on LEO weapons.
Even some LEOs aren't immune to the taste of Kool-Aid. And I also heard about the MallNinjaFlu spreading in LEO quarters... :rolleyes:
 

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Actually they're a fairly decent sight.

Better than a conventional peep or ghost ring sight.

As one who's eyes are gradually losing the ability to quickly change focus between front and rear sights, thankfully very very slowly. I find them quite easy to use. And more accurate than a conventional peep or rear blade.

And yes they will fit in most well designed holsters.

As to other sights, I have Mepro's and Trijicon's on my Glocks as well as other pistols. But my secondary handgun, a G-21 is now proudly wearing a set of these. But then again it's also sporting a laser and tactical light for building searches and 'raid' duties.
 

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Regarding your post one could think that this "advertisement" [the article of Conti] in a gun magazine is a scientific essay.

Did they make an evaluation about the added value? Did they compare the Hexsight to other sights? What kind of user groups tested the sights? Did Conti receive money for writing the article?:rolleyes:

In fact, articles in gun magazines are no science, especially when someone is trying to sell a new product. If there would be some kind of research or testing behind it, there would be numerous possibilities to publish the article in a scientific journal or attend a conference. :rolleyes:

Guys, if you want to put unnecessary crap onto your guns, fine. It is your decision... :thumb: That is called freedom of choice.

Even some LEOs aren't immune to the taste of Kool-Aid. And I also heard about the MallNinjaFlu spreading in LEO quarters... :rolleyes:
It is more helpful if your speaking with some fact behind it rather than a lot of innuendo based on no facts that I can discern from your post.

Fact: The article you speak of was originally published in a book Mike Conti wrote titled "Police Pistolcraft." This fact took an enormous amount of research. Like 2 seconds looking at the home page for HexSite.

I could wax lyrical about Mike Conti's impeccable reputation. Let's leave it at this fact. Both Jim Cirillo and Dave Grossman wrote forwards to his book. These men also have impeccable reputations.

Fact: I took a class to become a certified medical responder where I was the only civilian among about 20 LEOs. Most are dedicated, intelligent and serious people. Some were too young to pass judgment yet. Those who choose to serve (military, LEO, fire) have both my respect and affection.

I'm not trying to advocate the Hexsite, although I would have one if it fit my EDC handgun. I am trying to advocate some fairness in presentation of concerns that are backed by facts.

I forgot to mention that I'm a CCW instructor.
 

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All of us are entitled to our own opinions. However, we are not entitled to our own facts. A careful reading of the papers and Conti's article may not change your opinion, but will certainly make you better informed.
Everything I talked about is from science.... How the eye works etc. If you spent the amount of time backing Conti, as you did researching the subject maybe you wouldn't be so dismissive.

Frankly I read his article it was laidened with his opinion. Everyone can have one of those. It still doesn't disprove that our eyes aren't as effective looking through a hex as it would be with more traditional peep sight.

I don't know if the open sites are more effective in day, but at night I would say they are.

Also with a trijicon ghostring sight on the market why fus with a hex site? Considering the eye and how it works......
 

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Is the second pic photoshopped? What the heck is that on the right side of the smart carry? Did you cut off the grip of another M&P for some reason? It looks like a mag inserted in a M&P. Weird...
It's an 14-round extended magazine. Neat huh! :) 10+1+14. If that doesn't do it, my EDC BUG offers 6+1+6. If that doesn't do it, I'll beat him to death with all the hardware. :D:

 

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Everything I talked about is from science.... How the eye works etc. If you spent the amount of time backing Conti, as you did researching the subject maybe you wouldn't be so dismissive.
I'm always interested in adding to my education. Please cite the science you refer to. Contrast it with the science presented here. RELEVANT MEDICAL RESEARCH

I am dismissive only because you have not offered any facts or research references to back up your opinion.
 

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I'm always interested in adding to my education. Please cite the science you refer to. Contrast it with the science presented here. RELEVANT MEDICAL RESEARCH

I am dismissive only because you have not offered any facts or research references to back up your opinion.
Hell the re-post of the same thing doesn't make your add any more factual. I will see if I can find the info, but its nearly aged to death. The eye perception was found out during the heyday of coin operated arcades, involving peep show(not nude but the little cartoon boxes you fed coins in and saw moving pictures).

Had a guy in college do a whole thing on the peep show things for a historical paper, and explained why they had circular holes instead of square ones. This was a fairly important thing. Did you know your eyes will create a normal field of vision by processes of your mind while looking through a circle vs other shapes?

Sadly, I didn't for see a conversation relating to peep shows being important years later, or I might have gotten a copy.

Maybe you should do some research on the subject instead of just reading one advertisement.

Just ask you why do we use circles for scopes, and nearly everything eye related, lenses cameras etc. Your eye is a circle, your brain naturally prefers pefect circles etc.

Also do a search for infants and shape preferences. You will see a natural reaction where children will look through circles more readily then other shapes....... You are hard wired a certain way.

Now if you can find information supporting the hexsite not linked to the hexsite I might be more inclined to do more research.
 

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Hexsite, ad nauseum

Hi everyone. I am new to this forum, but have been "eavesdropping" on the postings for some time. Some folks will recognize me from other forums and such, and as others won't, I thought I would post some generic background. I have been noticing one thing on many forums that disturbs me. I wonder if it does others? Whenever I see someone mention something "new", there are always a few that are interested, a few who will offer opinions, and a BUNCH who decry, deny and generally downplay anything "they" didn't bring up! That seems to happen everywhere but a lot on here. (In fact I am going to post this exact message on a few other forums I have decided to join, might as well have all the "don't confuse me with facts" types ALL mad at at once instead of stringing it out!)
I do NOT pretend to be a "expert" at anything but getting my #10 feet in my #7 mouth all the time, but I like to give and get honest opinions and knowledge. Why else would we be on here? I don't care for people to malign things because of a gut feeling, or "knowing better", because they are seldom right. I DO like informed (and experienced) opinions so I can learn from them and maybe escape some mistakes or find a better mousetrap I didn't know about. This tirade, by the way is just a warning that I get interested in everything, and just want folks to understand where I stand, or try to.

About Me: I retired after 20 years in the USAF, after being medically refused reenlistment. I served as a Ground Radio Maintenance man, a ROMAD (look at www.romad.com for exp), and as a Combat Controller until injured too badly to continue those careers. (both are now under what is called "Special Operations" Then we didn't call it anything! The whole idea was no one knew we existed!)
I ended my career as a Safety Engineer on the Space Shuttle program, a vocation I pursued in sillyvillian life also. I have been the owner of a Computer Repair Center for 29 years until closing it last year. I have also served as a LEO on municipal and county agencies, mostly in Maine.

I have been a NRA and military firearms safety and marksmanship instructor, and served on official USAF rifle & pistol competitive teams for years. I have earned the Distinguished Rifle and Pistol awards, and continue today with active shooting. I went through gunsmith training while still in high school, and have continued in that activity commercially and as a hobby ever since.

That doesn't get me many free coffees anywhere, but I do have an extensive background from which to pull, even if I don't "know it all".
(don't let my kids know I admitted that!)

I have quite a bit of experience using and teaching firearms use, safety and marksmanship, especially tactical or combat shooting uses. The Hex Sight is one of the first real innovations in a 100 years that delivers far better speed and accuracy than the partridge type (which was invented 100+ years ago), that almost ALL others are derived from, not to mention delivering way more than advertised. I came across it accidentally, but knew when I saw it, what a value it would be, and then mad because I didn't think of it!

I had been exposed to the same idea using a hexagonal sight, but for a purpose other than guns. During my AF Radio Maintenance days, we would have to align transmitters to distant target receiver antennas to accomplish certain testing. (I worked with the Wright Patterson Development Laboratory then) We would manually align the highly directional radio beam towards a distant "target” designating the receiving antenna location. We did this with a tubular "scope" (without reticules) and trial and error. Because we are talking 10 or more miles distance, it took quite a few trial and error corrections to be tightly aligned. Several of the scientists at the lab came up with a hexagonal shaped, short tube sight, not very unlike the Hex Sight's application. An optical scientist on staff explained to us how the eye doesn't need to focus on a hexagon shaped aperture to find a center, such as a circle (our tube sight, and ghost type rings included) does.

They explained that the eye is one of the most miraculous measuring instruments going. Your eye can not easily adjust to a circle because the slightest shift in perspective may be off without having a definite reference for the eye to compare to, and you won't know it. With a diamond shape (vertically), you have only 2 invisible reference lines from the apexes, which you do NOT NEED TO FOCUS ON, as your eye does it subconsciously! If you add 1 more reference line (with the hexagonal shape) your eye automatically registers the exact center against 16 reference points created by the sights design, and subconsciously draws intersecting lines for it. You literally, according to optometrists I have spoken to about this (I didn't just accept it even though I knew of the principle) cannot avoid realizing the exact center, as your eye and mind KNOW where it is, and won't let you override that knowledge. And this is all automatic and subconscious, there isn't anything to do and it is instantaneous. THAT alone takes some precious time out of "sighting".

Back to my antennas. Using this "new" method, we would take 2-4 tries to be spot on, versus a possible hundred or more on an average day. Our workday went from 8-10 hours to an hour! If you don't think THAT impresses a young GI, you have never been one! So, when I first saw the Hex Sight in Guns & Ammo's HANDGUN issue in 2008, I KNEW what it would do! I immediately got one of my guns (worse one I could have picked, an ASTRA 100) set up with one and it went like I thought it would. I could look through the sight and at first, concentrate on holding the gun so the front sight was centered, which was almost automatic too. It has taken about 1 to 2 boxes of ammo to "get used to" each gun with the Hex Sight, but after that I don't even see the sights, I just "sense" them in front of my eyes.

I have been using them now for some time, and am convinced that had I had these when I was in combat, as a LEO or in the military, I would have less holes in ME, and would have had more and quicker placed ones in my opponents! I have been unlucky enough to have been in too many gunfights, several with handguns. I didn't come out damage free, but fortunately my training or reflexes won each time. I have several bullet wounds and YOU DO NOT WANT ANY! ANYTHING that will keep you or loved ones from experiencing that is more valuable than gold !! Trust me, if only on this! I can also attest that in more fights than I will admit to, I have NEVER been able afterwards, to truthfully say I "saw" ANY sights! Adrenalin and a quadrupled heart rate do not allow you to "focus" on sights! You are "focused" on what is making your heart go fast, and that is NOT how good your sight picture is! I have talked to many other soldiers and LEOs who have been in gunfights and every single one says the only time they saw sights were if they had a shotgun! That big assed barrel and sight was too bit to ignore and IN THEIR WAY! The ones who were most successful (though they all were or we wouldn't have been talking) were so used to their guns, they knew when they were on target. (This is one way the Hexsite excels: Quickly, allowing you to know you are on target, which if you do train hard, you come to "feel".)

Their only problem was if the target moved or another target rose up and they needed to get "sights on" to the new threat. That, is when they saw their sights, and every one has said the time to look at the sights could have cost their lives. Most people will tell you that confronted with possible death out of a little hole looking at you, you don't DARE look at your sights! You can't take your eyes off the threat !!

Yes, I know that umpty leven heroes will tell you in their books, that they coolly and calmly took a good sight picture and by sheer skill and good morals, defeated their foe! BS! Even Jeff Cooper, one of the best known surviving pistoleros, admitted "stance, FAMILIARITY with your weapon and CONSTANT TRAINING is what pays off in gunfights! He and Bill Jordan, who probably survived more than any other Officer, both advocated firing from a stance where the gun is centered in front of you and at almost waist level WHERE YOU CAN'T EVEN SEE THE SIGHTS! Their rational was that you could NOT look for a sight picture AND a threat simultaneously! I trained people for years in the different sight uses and stances, and they were all good for some and no good for others. I believe the only thing they were good for in a close-up gunfight, was that got you used to holding the weapon properly, and that increased your chances of a hit. According to the FBI report on policing for 2007, shots fired by officers, ranging from armed guards to patrolmen, have only a 20-30% average of hits of ANY KIND during actual action. Non intentional impacts (a euphemism for "missed again") is as high as 99% in urban areas. The safest person in the average gunfight is the criminal! He is the least likely to be hit!

Now, here come de Hex Sights. I recently got them on my favorite gun, a Browning High Power 9mm that if you have the skills, can drive tacks! I admit I don't anymore. At 63, I don't have the eyes or the motor control skills I had when I was young, and I don't regularly bust off 4-5 thousand rounds minimum, every month, like I used to when Unca Sam paid for the ammo.
I let the results of one of my shoots, the first with the Hex Sights on my beloved BHP, say it all. I am already used to the sights, but on this gun, everything goes together like a gift from Heaven. I usually shoot at 15 and 25 yards on the local AFB range. I use those little 5.5" stick on bursting targets. I like to practice combat style, not target shooting, as I never again expect to be attacked by a paper target. I don't rush, but try and put one or two magazines full downrange as fast as I can get on target. My average this last year or so with standard sights, (when you are trying to locate a target threatening your life, you really don't want bright paint, green dots or LEDs in front of the target, because those ARE what your eyes are drawn to first) I would fire 10 rounds at 15 yards with about 6 out of ten in a 5" circle. At 25 yards with 20 rounds (Kalifornia mags are 10 rds) I usually put 10-14 in the kill zone on a silhouette target. The first time with the BHP and its new Hex Sights, I put 10 rounds ALL in less than 5" in 6 seconds by a stopwatch, at 10 yards. My first try at 25 yards saw 19 out of 20 in the center chest area, about an 8" group, in 30 seconds flat, out of 2 mags, FROM A FOBUS HOLSTER. The difference is the sights! I didn't get better, the gun didn't start feeling sorry for me, and the sights are the ONLY difference. On switching targets, I shoot those pie plate sized targets, 5 across, 2 rounds each. I usually take around 5-6 seconds, sometimes longer, to align each target and fire 2 rounds. With the Hex Sight, I see the target through the sight aperture so quickly; I keep both eyes on the target I am shooting plus the next one. Now I try an go left, right, left, right and middle to pick them up differently, and if anything I am equaling my best speed for just sweeping one side to the other. If you haven't figured it out yet, I love these sights. I will soon have them anything I have, that HAS sights. (My little J frame, who needs 'em)

I have NO interest in the company and get nothing for saying all this. (other than planning on giving them LOTS of money until all my guns have these sights) I just like to share GOOD stuff, and get tired of seeing folks deprived of a good experience and advantages because so many "know it alls" that have never even tried something, feel the need to stop anyone else from discovering something they haven't got!

I also sent the optical notes from the Goshen-hexsite web pages to a couple of very famous opticians and an ophthalmologist I know, and they heartily agreed that it is factual. (all three are renowned in their fields, and one helped pioneer Lasik surgery) My son is on the local PD, and since introducing them to the Hex Sight, they are working at having it as the agency's duty sights. There are lots of other LE agencies that have also done so, a couple of which I have contacted personally, and without fail (from the ones I know about) they are all very satisfied with it. I have yet to hear about a negative report from ANY agency and FEW from individuals. (I DO look for info on them - that's how I found THIS site - because When I get "UP" with something I tend to go overboard, and since breaking my wrist (badly) a few weeks ago, have plenty of SHOOTING time to convert to KEYBOARD time! Thank you GOOGLE!!)

There IS NO BEST SIGHT! Everyone may use something different that is best for him or her. Just don't deprive others of a chance because you feel deprived of your "expert" guru status. Go find a mountain top and meditate, or open your minds and join people who like to think and experience things, not just be "directed".

I have been to the range several times lately (before "Breaking up is hard to do" became my theme song) and the sessions mirror my first one with the BHP and Hexsites. I haven't gotten better, they have just allowed me to DO better by allowing me extra time to use the skills I have left!

You can also find several "medical" opinions on how HARD it is (NOT easier) for the eye to quickly adjust to finding the center of a circle like a large Ghost sight. There aren't any reference points! With one that provides them like the Hexsite does, your eye does it automatically. THAT is why some people don't "see" any advantage. They CAN'T see it, but their eye and mind do. Someone tried to tell me that was impossible, but then couldn't explain why our eye, with their shape, HAVE to be actually "seeing" everything upside down like a camera lens does, but we "perceive" it as right side up! How about because our eyes AND mind are both quicker than our mouths? (unfortunately, including my case)

Talking about it and evaluating it, is like doing the same evaluating sex! If you just went by a clinical or even sarcastic description you probably would never try THAT! (You put WHAT WHERE.....and then WHAT happened?)

Thanks for listening to the tirade, and of course if you didn't then that’s OK too. Don't believe anyone, including me! Find out for yourself. Just don't pretend to KNOW anything, if you haven't TRIED it.
(and THEN, she...."You're KIDDING...)
:thumb:
God Bless, and Merry Christmas

Paul Andreasen (Old_Romad)
TSgt, USAF (Ret
ROMAD, 601st DASS
CCT, 1278th APS
(There's no such thing as an Ex-ROMAD)

(Gawd, now my OTHER wrist hurts from typing so much!)
 
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