Fraud Waste and Abuse: When is it OK.
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OK, how about the elimination of Polio. I think we can all agree on that being a good cause.
Most of the world is free from Polio so we know it can be done. Thanks to places like Pakistan, *****ia, Chad, and Afghanistan the would is not yet free from Polio. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis_eradication ]
Should we just do everything we can and cure the world of Polio?
Most of the world is free from Polio so we know it can be done. Thanks to places like Pakistan, *****ia, Chad, and Afghanistan the would is not yet free from Polio. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis_eradication ]
Should we just do everything we can and cure the world of Polio?
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7,136 Posts
how is that fraud, waste and or abuse? now if the gov paid for vaccines that were never delivered. that would be fraud waste and or abuse. but the actual vaccination itself isnt.
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i think you got that backwards.
Never... It's never ok.
I think you are both right. Politicians and federal entities are great at wasting out tax dollars. burn them all...:thumb:
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5,354 Posts
Waste is OK when my wife does it. By ignoring it I am able to stay married.
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2,622 Posts
The ends can never justify the means. That is an absolute of moral law. Would it be right to kill a young man with down syndrome to for a heart transplant to save a the life of a genius? Is it right to kill a baby so a person can live a more "comfortable" life?
Fraud, illegal actions (as longs as the laws themselves are not immoral) and similar actions cannot be justified, no matter how noble you may think something is. Would the person you rib think it is noble. If you believe they would help anyway, and they could afford it, then just ask for their help, there is no need to rob them. Otherwise, you are just a thief.
Fraud, illegal actions (as longs as the laws themselves are not immoral) and similar actions cannot be justified, no matter how noble you may think something is. Would the person you rib think it is noble. If you believe they would help anyway, and they could afford it, then just ask for their help, there is no need to rob them. Otherwise, you are just a thief.
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1,650 Posts
If it's for a good cause then it would not be waste. Waste would be anything that is not a good cause. Feeding children is not waste, feeding their parents (unless truly disable) would be waste unless it's for a very short time until they get back on their feet. Fraud is something illegal, why would you need to commit fraud to do good, unless you are trying to say lie to get something you don't deserve. The issue now is that people keep electing the same crooks (both parties are the same) whose only interest is themselves and the masters they serve (usually the people that give them money under the table). Easy enough solution but the fighting between "opposite" groups about who is the worse when both are the worse results in what we have because brain washing people is a science politicians practice successfully.
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Ok, I'll start a program to feed the children. It will be of the highest priority that all the children are feed -- none will ever be turned away hungry.
We will hire an extra person on staff to analyze and project how may children will come in today, tomorrow, next week and next month. We will always have twice the amount of food prepared over the projected need.
A child will never leave with hunger.
Sound like a good plan?
P.S. We will be open 24 hours per day so no child is ever turned away. We will just order more food.
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751 Posts
You should feel great about feeding a starving child in a far off and distant land. While your money is on its way there, it will help a charity executive to buy a much needed new BMW, help an awful lot of banks generate revenue while they hold on to money longer than needed, buy a few dinners for a politician to get them onside, make Bono and Bob Geldof feel good about themselves, buy some weapons for the local war lord and keep a face alive to be shown on another advert.
Not only that, that child can become an adult and have a family.
Then eight other sanctimonious bastards can tell me how they give money to charity to feed the starving.
How about this, fix the society in which you live and leave others in the rest of the world to fix theirs or die trying, as our ancestors did?
Not only that, that child can become an adult and have a family.
Then eight other sanctimonious bastards can tell me how they give money to charity to feed the starving.
How about this, fix the society in which you live and leave others in the rest of the world to fix theirs or die trying, as our ancestors did?
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Liberal #1. Too much of the earth is paved over. We need to take down the cities and Urban Sprawl!
Sheeple: Yay, Yes We Can SS! Yes we can SS! Yes We Can Stop the Sprawl!!
Liberal #3. We need to make our parks 100% accessible to all. We must have paved trails and ramps. We need Brail Images for the Blind at Look Out Point.
Sheeple: Yay, Yes We Can ad a path! Yes we can ad a ramp! Yes We Can stop the discrimination.
Who is correct?
PS: Liberals can't cont. well enough to balance a budget.
Sheeple: Yay, Yes We Can SS! Yes we can SS! Yes We Can Stop the Sprawl!!
Liberal #3. We need to make our parks 100% accessible to all. We must have paved trails and ramps. We need Brail Images for the Blind at Look Out Point.
Sheeple: Yay, Yes We Can ad a path! Yes we can ad a ramp! Yes We Can stop the discrimination.
Who is correct?
PS: Liberals can't cont. well enough to balance a budget.
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2,320 Posts
From an absolutist position, WF&A is never ok. From a realist's position, WF&A is inevitable, you can only work to minimize it.
There are always questionable decisions, as the child food bank example illustrates. If there were a million kids being fed, then I think you would be able to say that WF&A has been minimized. If it served 2 kids, then the WF&A is astronomical.
In other words, part of the equations is efficiency of the program. Regardless of the policy, you want the most efficient program possible. That reduces / eliminates waste. Hiring and or using honest employees and volunteers should minimize fraud and abuse. But you can never get to that perfect level of zero WF&A. For example, going back to the food bank example, an employee takes an extra 3 minutes reading the paper while on the toilet. That is a form of waste, but the vast majority of people can live with that.
The real question is how much WF&A we can live with for a specific program. If you take Medicaid, fraud rates are estimated to be over 10%, but we are not doing anything to fix the problem and are not looking to eliminate the program. If we can live with $70 billion in WF&A in a single program, then is there any real ceiling to what we will tolerate?
Similarly, the public seems to get enraged when $50,000 is wasted. So the answer appears to be that if the public can generally understand the number of WF&A, they get mad and demand action. When the number is too big, then they can't.
Practically, I think that the answer to your question is that you have to know what the total cost of a program is (including WF&A), what benefits you get from the program is, what trade-offs you make, and then you decide if the cost to benefit ratio is acceptable.
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RE: TRM
2nd Thanks.
Sounds like there is always room to question the spending on a good program. Questions should be intended to make the program better. Some efforts do need to be passed over to do the tasks the make the most difference.
I recognize that some subject are sensitive and painful --- and in such cases, individuals should recuse their powers as they will not act in the best interest of the community.
Again, TRM, Thanks. Pointing out the percentage is an important issuer when dealing with large programs. Exxon makes a small profit margin -- which happens to be more money than any one individual will ever see. If nothing else, Exxon is efficient.
2nd Thanks.
Sounds like there is always room to question the spending on a good program. Questions should be intended to make the program better. Some efforts do need to be passed over to do the tasks the make the most difference.
I recognize that some subject are sensitive and painful --- and in such cases, individuals should recuse their powers as they will not act in the best interest of the community.
Again, TRM, Thanks. Pointing out the percentage is an important issuer when dealing with large programs. Exxon makes a small profit margin -- which happens to be more money than any one individual will ever see. If nothing else, Exxon is efficient.
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2,580 Posts
It isn't because what you're essentially asking is "when is it okay to lie, cheat and steal".
And, when will it lead to a man-made disaster? When the American Taxpayer can no longer afford to support the liars, cheaters and embezzlers currently funded and/or employed by our government.
I would guestimate within the next few to several years - regardless who gets elected in November.
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23,265 Posts
Fraud Waste and Abuse.
I would agree that Fraud would equate to Lie and Steal.
Cheat would be a type of abuse.
Waste could come from well hearted idiots.
It may be the right thing to do to order 100 hot meals for 100 soldiers -- but if 75 of them are on remote assignment and the locals are cooking them BBQ's every night, should we order 100 hot meals just to put 75 into the dumpster.
Sure, make sure we have MRE's if they on hand if needed.
What about putting in handicap parking in a parking lot for hiking trails. Hay, it is a federal park. Ya got an empty handicap parking spot in a paved parking lot next to the trail head to the beach. If you can roll to the beach, you can make it across the parking lot.
An able bodied citizen is denied access to the beach and when a handicap spot sets empty with a $350 fine sign posted.
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