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Ingloriously Deplorable
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heh-heh-heh, "SBR is any firearm with a buttstock that has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches." I was wondering when some smart guys were gonna figure that out when the shockwave shotguns came about. Loophole my ass, the law is the law. ATF keeps this up they're gonna 'interpet' the NFA right outta existence for the most part. Under the right circumstances, they might just end up finding a judge to put a match to the whole NFA.

Outside the box thinkers...gotta love'em!!
 

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Franklin Armory should supply a certification with each gun, and if I had one I'd keep that certification folded up inside the pistol grip.
Does that mean I can built one with the same measurements and be legal also? Isn't this basically just an AR pistol with a butts rock instead of a sig brace?
 

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Near The Glow
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heh-heh-heh, "SBR is any firearm with a buttstock that has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches." I was wondering when some smart guys were gonna figure that out when the shockwave shotguns came about. Loophole my ass, the law is the law. ATF keeps this up they're gonna 'interpet' the NFA right outta existence for the most part. Under the right circumstances, they might just end up finding a judge to put a match to the whole NFA.

Outside the box thinkers...gotta love'em!!
Here’s hoping, and the cat’s out of the bag thanks to the Sig brace, the AR/AK pistol, the bump stock, the Mossberg Shockwave, and now this where people are questioning “why even get a stamp?” Everything made is following the letter of the law.

Like what I always say, “don’t hate the player, hate the game” :)
 

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Near The Glow
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Franklin Armory should supply a certification with each gun, and if I had one I'd keep that certification folded up inside the pistol grip.
Does that mean I can built one with the same measurements and be legal also? Isn't this basically just an AR pistol with a butts rock instead of a sig brace?
That’s what I’m hoping as well. Also, it being longer than 26” OAL means it can also accept a vertical foregrip since it’s not a pistol. And remember, no- it’s not an AR pistol due to the length. I was able to get a 10.5” barrel AR over 26” using a KAK Super Tube. My PWS MK107 is not so lucky, no amount of finagling is going to get it to 26+ inches as it’s 23” and stands to go even shorter.

I think they should include their binary trigger with that one :thumb:
Just looked at the picture, and it does! Be still, my heart, be still...

...they really have to do something about that dumb red sticker. It looks so cheesy. I’d rather just write “binary” on my lower with the appropriately-colored Sharpie.
 

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I'd like to hear from someone who knows more details about these rules how this works. Unless I'm missing something, this doesn't sound like a "loophole," it sounds like either the ATF has changed its own interpretation, or we all assumed the ATF would interpret it some other way until these guys asked. How is this different than just putting a pistol upper on a regular lower set up with a carbine stock?
 

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Old Grouch
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As I understand, the key parts of this exemption for the Revolution will be:

Smoothbore, not rifled to defeat SBR

Binary trigger for the 2 round to bypass the def of rifle firing 1 round when trigger pulled

#note this is speculation until Franklin Armory releases the details
 

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If it's a smoothbore, then I would imagine that'll pass. And it's not a loophole, as the words "rifled barrel" are in the definition for a reason.

Is anybody aware of any tests of 5.56 out of a smoothbore setup? Would it be "accurate enough" inside, say, 40 yards?
 

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I thought smoothbores wouldn't fare well with conical bullets?

Looking forward to the official announcement and specs for this though...
 

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If it's a smoothbore, then I would imagine that'll pass. And it's not a loophole, as the words "rifled barrel" are in the definition for a reason.

Is anybody aware of any tests of 5.56 out of a smoothbore setup? Would it be "accurate enough" inside, say, 40 yards?
I believe it would then be an AOW.

I sent this to 4 buddies going to SHOT. one indicated he would be heading right over there. (He does CAD for a series 7)

I'm going to refrain from speculation.
 

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What hell, pay attention
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I dont see where the smooth bore part comes in here. I seriously doubt you would see any kind of accuracy out of one anyway.

It seems to me, the loophole they are alluding to is the word "or", and maybe " 26" or greater" in length.

It's really hard to fathom that in all the years the N F A has been in effect, people have just now figured this kind of stuff out. Something must be up in the ATF (etc) to allow these interpretations to all of a sudden be contrary to 83 years of supposed "law" .

Why does my ass hurt all of a sudden? :cool:
 

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MAGA
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"SBR is any firearm with a buttstock that has a rifled barrel of less than sixteen inches, or an overall length of less than twenty six inches."

Key word in all this is "OR" I haven't ever cared enough to look at the actual law/decree from ATF but if it's longer than 26" barrel length should not matter.

Looking at the ATF designation they screwed up the wording and someone finally caught it.
 

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What hell, pay attention
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Somebody needs to get some heavy over sight on the ATF and hold them to the law itself and not their interpretation of them.

All this is cool and all, but next week, things like AR/AK pistols, Shockwave shotguns, and now this, can all be something completely different, and back in the NFA, and with no apparent recourse.

Remember the Street Sweeper shotguns that were legal for awhile, and then one day, DD's and now an NFA item?

As they constantly tell us, the law is the law. It's about time, we hold "them" to it.

By the way, where's the NRA and all their high paid lawyers been all this time?
 

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The potential draconian punishments ATF can deal out stifles a lot of possibilities. No one wants to touch that third rail. If they think you’re ****ing with them they can and will ruin you.
What was that company that was dealing 80% lowers? Didn’t ATF rain on their parade?

That’s most of the issue I have with ATF and their rulings and definitions. Not consistent.
 

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Barrel length and overall length would IMO not be a loophole either. The law could have said "and" but they chose to say "or." They apparently thought either requirement was enough by itself or they'd have stipulated both by using the word "and". It has said "or" all along.

The initial reaction seemed to be that they were somehow giving it credit for its full extended length, even though the stock could be closed up to get the length under 26". I suppose that would be a loophole, but moreso a reinterpretation. Or a misunderstanding that everybody had until these guys asked. "Everybody knows" that the relevant length is the gun's minimum collapsed length and/or how it's actually configured while being shot, or basically whatever is the worst configuration for your purposes :cool:

Smoothbore wouldn't be a loophole. If they came up with some new bore type that's technically not rifled, but has similar characteristics, that could be a loophole I suppose.

What if they put a 27" plastic spike on a rotating ball mount that can be pointed in the most convenient direction. Now that's a loophole :thumb: (No, I am not speculating that this is what they did, just being silly.)

We could speculate forever, but, I'm eager to hear what the "loophole" actually is and whether it's one that can be easily emulated by other manufacturers or people assembling their own ARs.
 

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Is anybody aware of any tests of 5.56 out of a smoothbore setup? Would it be "accurate enough" inside, say, 40 yards?
Test? No. Single anecdotal data point? Yes...

I was once issued a "new" XM-177E1 SMG and took it out to zero and test fire. It (and all of its stablemates in my unit) were back channel procured from overseas arms merchants during the 1970's. Guns that had been left behind in SEA for use by South Vietnamese forces. They were captured when that nation surrendered and eventually sold on the open world arms market by a communist regime in need of cash. Ultimately "repatriated" through US purchase on that same open market and issued to various US SOF/OGA elements. These were war guns, many of them used hard before winding up back in US hands. We got a mix of both well worn and nearly pristine weapons for issue. B Co, 2/75th Rangers. 1978.

Mine had essentially no lands and grooves left in the barrel. No telling how high of a round count was needed to accomplish that, but it barely still fit the definition of a rifled weapon. For practical purposes, a shot-out smooth bore.

At that time, we issued M193 55 grain FMJ. That particular weapon would barely keep M193 on an E-type silhouette at 25 meters and all rounds keyholed at that distance. Impossible to zero. Nearly impossible to deliberately hit anything past that distance with aimed fire. The gun was simply shot out and in need of a new barrel. Literally delivered patterns of 5.56 at 25 meters that were reminiscent of 00 buck fired from a riot gun at the same distance.

Naturally, that same day, I DX'ed that worn out weapon for another (actually an E2) which was not shot out. That little gun worked just fine and was pretty accurate. I routinely qualified Expert with it (out to 300 meters) over the next few years.

Those little CAR-15s had 10 or 11.5 inch barrels. No effective rifling meant no hits beyond living room distances. Maybe with a 20" barrel you might achieve 100-yard smooth bore musket performance, but I doubt it.

All that to say... I seriously doubt the practical accuracy of 5.56 fired down smooth bore barrels past about 10 yards.
 

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Grevcon 10
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With the smoothbore, is it going to qualify as an SBS? Not sure what that definition is. Does it need to be above a certain gauge to qualify as an SBS?
 
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