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· Third World'er Lunatic
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ok let me get this straight, 1> "LEOs miss between 70 and 80% of shots fired during a shooting incedent .2> there is little to no notable difference in the wound tracs between 9mm lugar and 45 cal 3> hand gun stopping power is simply a myth. my summation of the lab is:: They need to send these guys back, from their retreat in Colorado, and dry em out from smoking all that gunja.
 

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First and foremost, the FBI pushed for 10mm and then 40S&W because blaming a bullet for the Miami debacle was easier than blaming flawed training, tactics, and poor decision making among both the dead and their living superiors who had careers to cover.

That said, 40S&W is harder on pistols (an issue when you are managing a fleet of thousands of pistols, even if your personally owned Blastomatic 40 has never had any problems) and is harder to train people to proficiency on compared to 9mm. This is a particular issue in agencies where the rank and file don't get much range time and, let's be honest here, the FBI are mostly forensic accountants with badges, not trigger pullers (and I'm sure HRT will be waivered to carry what they deem necessary compared to the rank and file). There's moderate savings in ammo costs, even at the economy of scale level for an organization like the FBI. Etc.

On the other hand, modern 9mm JHP loads get the job done. Lower recoil means you can anchor a target with multiple hits faster -- there's a reason IPSC has to stack the deck against 9mm, and that's because it's damn fast compared to bigger cartridges.

It's all trade offs, but 9mm never was that bad a trade off to begin with.
 

· Third World'er Lunatic
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I understand what your saying but,

First and foremost, the FBI pushed for 10mm and then 40S&W because blaming a bullet for the Miami debacle was easier than blaming flawed training, tactics, and poor decision making among both the dead and their living superiors who had careers to cover.

That said, 40S&W is harder on pistols (an issue when you are managing a fleet of thousands of pistols, even if your personally owned Blastomatic 40 has never had any problems) and is harder to train people to proficiency on compared to 9mm. This is a particular issue in agencies where the rank and file don't get much range time and, let's be honest here, the FBI are mostly forensic accountants with badges, not trigger pullers (and I'm sure HRT will be waivered to carry what they deem necessary compared to the rank and file). There's moderate savings in ammo costs, even at the economy of scale level for an organization like the FBI. Etc.

On the other hand, modern 9mm JHP loads get the job done. Lower recoil means you can anchor a target with multiple hits faster -- there's a reason IPSC has to stack the deck against 9mm, and that's because it's damn fast compared to bigger cartridges.

It's all trade offs, but 9mm never was that bad a trade off to begin with.
9mm Luger is their "new" better than everything of the same type bullet. Im not saying 9 cannot be accurate. what im throwing the BS flag on is, 9mm Luger out performs everything else, LEOs miss that much in the heat of the moment ( mayhap freshout of school FBI guys do, but i degress) and pistol impact/stopping power is a myth. 9mm is all about shot placement. we all strive to be as accurate with every firearm as possible.
 

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After Miami, the FBI wanted a better round. They got it with the 10mm.

Then, they realized that officers used to shooting .38 special (revolvers were still common in the FBI at the time) couldn't handle the 10mm (they blamed it on women agents, and I agree, the FBI had too many women of both genders).

So, they turned it down to the .40S&W, first with a reduced load 10mm, then with the true .40 with the shorter case for smaller grips.

Now that ammo and loading have improved to the point that 9mm shots impact as well as 10mm when you back it down 9mm power (.40) there isn't much reason not to go to 9mm.

In fact, had Miami not started out with the premise of replacement, it would likely have simply replaced the agencies revolvers with double stack pistols.
 

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Utah State Police started going 9mm last fall as well.

All kinds of reasons, from cheaper/easier to train with, to modern 9mm ammo is better than the old stuff, one shot stops are a myth and stats show caliber to have NO provable advantage on stopping bad guys, and the fact that, in most police shootouts, there is no such thing as "enough" ammo....and there you have it.
 

· American fearmaker
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14,290 Posts
The average street cop, the really hardcore beat guy, would look out his window if he were surrounded by FBI agents and say to himself, "Oh, jeez! Look! I am surrounded by accountants and attorneys. I guess I'm in big trouble."

What people keep forgetting to point out is that Matix and Platt, the two bank robbers, had previous MILITARY police experience prior to becoming bad guys. They knew tactics, firearms, fire and maneuver techniques and they were well trained with their firearms. It was almost, not quite, a case of police officers versus FBI agents. Some people, tacky ones, like to point out that the end result reads like the score of a macabre game: FBI 2, Bad Guys 4. The point is neither side really won in that shootout because too many good people, honest FBI agents, died that day. Even the two bad guys had family that loved them too. So more than 6 people were killed, wounded and maimed in that shootout. More than 6 people had their lives suddenly and viciously changed or jerked all around in one afternoon's violent confrontation. Dozens and dozens of people were hurt by that event.

A couple of those FBI agents were top marksmen. One agent's bullet was a perfect inline shot for a heart hit but it stopped a couple of inches short of the organ. Why? Because the fired round was designed to function like a hollow-point was supposed to do. It mushroomed out and stopped inside the bad guy's body instead of going forward when penetration was needed. If the round had been a ball round, it would have gone through the body and through the heart but it didn't. So much for coulda, woulda and shoulda.

One other thing that the FBI failed to do that day: Effectively communicate with local police. The FBI didn't even let the local cops know that they had a stakeout going on anywhere at all. Then they get into a shootout in a residential neighborhood. Bullets are flying everywhere. People are dropping dead, wounded and dying all over the place AFTER a series of car wrecks, high speed chases and collisions. Heck to cover the whole wreck, collision and impact with the house thing the FBI came up with a new bit of wordage: "tactical ramming." I kid you not! They actually used that phrase in some of their reports to explain/justify how agents used their cars to force the suspects' vehicle off of the road and so it collided into a private residence. Older police officers who read the various reports of the Miamis Shootout were pretty sure that the distant sound that we heard coming from the east somewhere was J. Edgar Hoover spinning in his grave about the same revolutions of a ship's propeller. When the local cops got to the scene there was so much confusion that they, the local cops, were drawing down on the FBI agents who were in plain clothes. If the local cops had a hint that the FBI had been on a stakeout or something it would have been nice but the FBI is always playing their Secret Squirrel games which, this time, came dangerously close to getting more agents shot and killed. They should have communicated with the local cops better.

So now the FBI wants to go back to the 9 mm caliber pistols? The seriously need to increase the amount of firearms training that their agents get. They also need to rethink their firearms policies. Like many federal agencies the upper command is primarily made up of liberal thinkers which means "anti-gun" or "anti-shooters" type people. These are the ones who have the "one qualification a year mindset is good enough." Sadly it's not. They also believe that a handgun is an agent's or police officer's best defense tool in a major crisis. It's NOT! A handgun is something that you use to fight your way back to your rifle or shotgun which you should never have left behind in the first place. So, until they understand that their firearms policies need a MAJOR reworking, they're going to keep losing agents no matter which caliber or which type of ammo they select.
 

· Start up the rotors
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I don't think changing to 9mm will do anything negative for the FBI. Good rounds, and more training, that will make the most difference.

Today's 9mm is not the 1986 Miami shoot out 9mm, and now 9=40=45 in real world outcomes. Wichita PD moved to 9mm again about a year and a half ago, no issues from what I hear.

Miami reads like it was a mess, more of a rifle vs. pistol issue than the pistol rounds used. Lot's of pistol wounds, but most of the deaths were from a 223.
Mireles shot the snot out of Platt, hit him with a shotgun after he'd already been shot several times, and then he had to empty a 357 into him at close range to end it...
Pretty much everyone got shot to crap, and most kept fighting. Just proof that people are hard to kill.
 

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As the official President of the local 357Sig Special Interests Group, get it, the 357Sig SIG (as well as the founding, and only, member, although my excellent puns may intimidate potential members lol), I think they should adopt it.

It uses the same case as the 40 short and wimpy just modified for awesomeness...
It uses the same bullet as the 9mm Para.
It can be loaded to be an incredibly powerful, flat shooting, and devastating (for a pistol) round, or it can function like a regular 9mm. Thus, versatile.

Plus, it'll drive ammo costs down for me and the 7 other non-government users nationwide! Win-win!
 

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726 Posts
I think the article makes sense. Ammo today is a lot different then years past. Recently I've been thinking about getting either a .40 or 45. I might just get another 9mm. At least I wouldn't have to invest in a new caliber of ammo too.
Any quality new manufacture pistol ammo will be almost indistinguishable from any other. The large calibers perform a little better through barriers but that is about it. I would not feel bad with a 9mm at any time. There are plenty of articles by reputable people that show tests of different rounds.
 
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