They are for slashing and stabbing...The idea is to fix them to your rifle to be out of stabbing range of your enemy......they dont have to be razor sharp as the force of whoch you swing the rifle is enough to cause serious damage.Ask any former military guy you know that has buttstroked someone .

 

They are for slashing and stabbing...The idea is to fix them to your rifle to be out of stabbing range of your enemy......they dont have to be razor sharp as the force of whoch you swing the rifle is enough to cause serious damage.

I see. But does that mean that when you take your bayonet off your rifle, you have an ineffective fighting knife?

 

The original bayonets were put on muskets, because they only had one shot and they would be hand to hand before they could reload, so they could turn those rifles into a lance........in the last 100 yrs, soldiers had a bayonet and a Kabar or AF survival knife.......the last 30 yrs, they attempted to combine the two, so that when not used as a bayonet( which became less of a necessity, with modern warfare), it could be used as a survival knife........

 

Drill Seargent: What makes the green grass grow!

Recruits: Blood...blood makes the green grass grow!

 

Not Really! The later model Garand,The M-14, AK-47,and M-16 bayonets are fairly effective in a knife fight role for example. Most bayonets were designed to be used as a thrusting blade though. Up untill after the <WAR FOR SOUTHERN INDEPENDENCE> 30 to 40% of battle casualties were caused by bayonets.

 

Letsgetreal got it right, originally it was to keep a musketeer armed and in the fight after discharging his one shot. I went thru a short bayonet course in the army, and never really thought about it . Looking back, I kinda wonder if the modern "assault "rifles could actually withstand the stresses bayonet fighting would put on the weapon,particularly the M16. I have a few British Enfields,one from WW1 and three from WW2. The 1918,1942,and 1944 SMLE's are No.1 Mk3's, which have a very long saber like bayonet. The No.4Mk1 has a spike socket bayonet. When one holds one of these in his hands, it FEELS like a weapon, rugged,and dependable. I personally don't think the bayonet is necessary today, it seems more a psychological weapon. If I were in combat,and ran out of ammunition, I would A: Break contact, retreat and regroup, then resupply, or B: Become a casualty. I would not be thinking "Fix bayonets and charge!" From what I saw of bayonets, they really aren't that great for field use, a good SAK would be more valuable, and if it DID come to hand to hand combat, I'd prefer a Kabar type knife or an E tool. Better yet, another magazine of ammunition.TP

 

The pointy end goes in the other guy:
Seriously, the modern bayonet is a multipurpose tool for use in the field and a source of entertainement for bored soldiers mostly in the form of throwing at stuff in a largey vain attempt to get it to stick point first. Yes, it can still function in the role of putting on the end of a rifle and sticking it into the other guy but if that is called for then things are pretty fubar and someone made a grevious tactical 'oopsie" At that point with todays rifles with a soldiers standard combat load I would be more comfortable with the bayonet in my offhand and an e-tool in my strong hand.
Peace
John

 

The Bayonet

When my father went through bayonet training during WW II it was not just for a last ditch effort after running out of ammunition. The bayonet was to be fixed when close quarters combat was anticipated. You did not just use the sharp end of the bayonet, either. You also slashed and used butt strokes and butt hammers. The use of the bayonet lessened the possibility of hitting you own troops with rifle fire when the combat was at CQC range with troops of both sides intermixed in a small area.

Since it is quite possible for the bayonet to become lodged in a bone in the enemy, standard procedure was to fire a round if the bayonet did not immediately come out of the enemy's body when the rifle was pulled back. The recoil would assist in disengaging the bayonet from the body and you were then free to carry on the attack.

There are lesser uses for the bayonet, not the least of which is prisoner control. A guard needs an intermediate response between doing nothing and firing upon unarmed prisoners. The bayonet can take that role on quite easily. The threat of it, as well as the gentle (if that term may be used) prodding with it will often cause the prisoner to do what the guard wishes. You also have recourse to the fully deadly use of the bayonet to resolve the issue, with a round from the rifle as last resort.

The bayonet is also a psychological threat, by showing that the soldier is willing and able to take the combat to the face to face stage. If a unit is known to have used the bayonet effectively, it will weigh upon the enemy to one degree or another. The sight of fixed bayonets when close quarter combat is expected will, in many cases, affect the willingness of the enemy to press the attack.

These facts listed, you should be able to tell that I believe that the use of the bayonet still has legitimate value.

I have the relatively new OKC-3S Marine Corps bayonets for my PTR-91 as well as my Remington 11-87. If/when I get a couple of .30 M1 Carbines, I will be getting bayonets for them.

 

Thank you for your replies people.

I think I see the purpose of a bayonet. I still don't really get why they come that dull, but I see the use of it. I think the effectiveness would be enhanced if it was sharper (depends on the model of course).

I watched a nutnfancy video (Pt 4 "Combat Shotgun Shootout:" Mossberg 590A1 ) in which he had a mossberg shotgun with a bayonet attached. That looked pretty intimidating.

 

I always kept my bayonet pretty sharp, and used it as more of a utility knife than anything. But even without the blade being razor sharp, the weight of the weapon coupled with the force of your slash, can do some serious damage!

 

Can't speak for the others, but the OKC-3S came razar sharp.

 

Modern spike bayonets were strictly cost concerns for the British military primarily as it was far cheaper to produce...

Up until Korea the use of the bayonet was encouraged and soldiers spent many hours on the combat course learning to stab and slash and butt stroke...

To prevent bayonets getting stuck the practice was to twist while stabbing causing a larger hole for more pressure to escape from and if you look at the bayonets that were in use until the start of the Rev War they were plug bayonets, you stuck them into your barrel so firing was frowned upon...

Also the use of the bayonet wasn't for the attack, primarily but for defence against horse borne soldiers--cavalry or dragoons the same way that pikes were used...Look at old battle lines and the front and sides were pikemen with arbalesters in the centre...They did away with the pikes by making all the firelocks into short pikes…

The only way that a bayonet will cause damage to an attacker when you slash them is if the bayonet is sharp otherwise all you'll do is bruise the skin and maybe break a bone but it is blood loss that stops a fight...The common weapon until Vietnam was a long, heavy (10 lb+) rifle with bayonets up to 18” long attached…It didn’t take much momentum then to stick someone but with today’s short, light weapons it really isn’t much more useful then just stabbing them with a fighting knife…

Oh, the reason that bayonets aren't being forced on soldiers anymore is because it isn't a static battle field like the trenches of WW1 and the dug in positions of the Japanese during WW2...Sure they look pretty on the end of a rifle but the first thing we were taught in hand-to-hand combat was how to disarm a bayonet wielding attacker--You'd be better off with a sword!

In today's military, bayonet fighting techniques are not taught beyond the most superficial levels--"This is a bayonet, it goes on the end of your rifle, you can stab people with it, next, this is your_____"...There is even a drive to have them not issued at all except for parade usage...

It's not that they don't have bayonets issued it's about the amount of time the soldier is being trained, in the proper use of the bayonet...How many hours today compared to WW2 to Korean War time or between WW1 and WW2...The bayonet is being phased out and in twenty years from now they won't have any--except for ceremonial functions...

Also, look at the amount of photos coming out of the sandbox--now compare how many show a bayonet mounted--I seriously doubt .000001%

Check out this military.com -- Bayonets in Iraq.

This AP Story -- AP Confused by Bayonets

Defence Management.com article -- US army calls time on bayonet drills and the

Yahoo News article -- Army drops bayonets, busts abs in training revamp

 

They can be used with or without a proper gun mount. Any questions?

 

How? With Duct Tape?

Unsharpened they don't make very good fighting knives...

In both Afghanistan and Iraq, British troops have killed with bayonets.

They've also have killed with tomahawks, box cutters, belt and pocket knives, strangled with their own kaffiyehs, lengths of iron pipe and one case I know of with a 16" cinder block...

Of the deaths attributed to bayonets, would they even show up as a percentile in the battle statistic figures...I seriously doubt they would show up to any degree if combined into one figure from both sides in every conflict after Vietnam...

 

In both Afghanistan and Iraq, British troops have killed with bayonets.

 

My Grandfather, who fought in WW1, said the order to "fix bayonets" invoked a mind set more than anything else.

 

you stab stuff with it.

 

I have no desire to compare figures of air or naval or drone or rocket or tank or fighting vehicle deaths in with bayonet statistics as that would be sheer stupidity when it is a solely infantry affair--whether airborne or mechanized doesn't matter...

Lovely that they did the bayonet charge but the reason it got written up about is not that it went off without a hitch but it was something that hasn't happened in how many decades, it was unique not commonplace...

Take all the deaths by bayonets from Vietnam to now and they won't make a percentile point on the stats...that is why the militaries are doing away with them--inefficient, same as the DOD did away with bolt action SMLEs as the main battle rifle...Even your MBR is ill equipped for bayonet drill with its bullpup design, especially with that 5" odd bayonet you have mounted on it--maybe if you added a WW1 18" Lee Enfield bayonet to it it would be of some use...

The style of warfare has changed significantly and because of the weapons that are being employed--no longer do you have the five shot clip fed magazine rifle with a lift/pull/push bolt system that would take time and if multiple enemies attacked you at least had a weapon, dating back a few thousand years, mind, to defend yourself with...Now with twenty, thirty rounders, semi auto fire, team fire discipline, ability to carry three hundred rounds into battle (compared to 100 .303), travel in armoured caravans (MBT and Carriers) and dismount for clearing with cannon/grenade launcher support brings a totally different light (and firepower) to the scene...No longer "The Thin Red Line" advancing to "Give them the Steel"

I've had many uncles/cousins in the Commonwealth military, RSMs, Warrant Officers and even a few gentlemen and the training they described from WW2 to what friends of mine have served in today's forces (Canadian, American, Israeli and British) and the training is no where near what they went through and it's getting less and less...It was less then what my relatives from WW1 were trained at and that was less then what they trained during the Boer and Crimean War and that was less then what they trained during the Napoleonic War but was about the same as what was taught during the Rev War (we got kicked out of the USA for being Royalists) and the F & I War before that and all the way back to Frederick the Great...All because of improvements in arms and especially cannons and the tactics devised to combat the latest advancements...

I'm not talking for ceremonial duties, guarding prisoners or sentry duty but straight honest combat troops slogging it through the brambles...There could still be a use for the bayonet in the above but even those are being phased out to cost cutting measures for the military...I know of two companies who used to make bayonets didn't have their contracts renewed, one did the trotters and the other downsized...

 

SeekHer, you mentioned this "The bayonet is being phased out and in twenty years from now they won't have any--except for ceremonial functions..." and you also posed the question about % of enemy combat deaths attributed to the bayonet.

In the last 3 decades how many enemy have been killed by pistol fire? As the number would be relatively low compared to all other weapons would it be reasonable to stop issuing troops pistols as a cost cutting measure?

I gave examples of how in the last few years (there are more examples of British troops using them) they have been used to good effect.

It seems to me that like the Falkland War (where the Scots Guards, Parachute Regiment and Royal Marine Commandos used bayonets), Afghanistan relies on old fashioned soldiering skills and fighting in close proximity to the enemy.

That soldiers have killed with improvised weapons, cinder blocks etc...or with modern combat tomahawks, only goes to prove that from time to time fighting becomes hand to hand combat.

All I'm trying to point out is that British soldiers are still issued bayonets and from time to time they are actually used.

 

Well there are many uses for bayonets. More that just the stabbing feature.
Mosin Nagant (91/30) Bayonets have a flat head screw driver end to use in taking apart the rifle.

The ak-47/74 Bayonet has many uses as well like a wire cutter etc.

A bayonet is used also for survival in the field. Like any good knife you would carry on a daily basis. Which I hope you do anyway. I guess back in the day it was like the multi-tool of today. With a wide array of use. From poking someone in the face to skewering a squirrel, from cutting someone throat to cutting up logs for a fire or cutting barbed wire.

 

I've never said that they haven't been used, just damn infrequently...The consensus for phasing them out isn't mine but what the various War Depts. are proclaiming...

Pistols in actuality would be quite a few more then a bayonet but you also have to remember that pistols weren't issued to every soldier, just officers, some NCOs and some Special Forces (who would have used them the most), bayonets were...

Same with we were taught to handle the LAW and the various belt fed machine guns, mortars, BAR style squad weapons just so that we knew what to do with them if the operator caught it but only specialty troops were fully trained in them...

The US still trains, a little, in bayonet fighting about the same as they give trainees pistol practice--as does the Canadian and German troops...I was given maybe two days worth of training (12 to 14 hrs) in the Israeli Army in the 1970s in basic and advanced courses and AFAIK it is still about the same today but back then we were using the FN-FAL and my sniper rifle was a Wehrmacht WW2 Mauser K-98k rebarreled to 7.62x51mm...When in the border police, we broke up a few demonstrations by advancing with fixed bayonets but I/we have never skewered anyone with one...

They still have a purpose, albeit very limited but I don't see them continuing much longer in the modern, Westernized, armies...As they say, "The writing is on the wall."

All my blackpowder military rifles have bayonets (plug and socket) and some of the Boer, WW1 & WW2 rifles have them but only if they came with the rifle, I didn't go out, nor will I now, and try finding a proper bayonet for them...

Well there are many uses for bayonets. More that just the stabbing feature.
A bayonet is used also for survival in the field. Like any good knife you would carry on a daily basis. Which I hope you do anyway. I guess back in the day it was like the multi-tool of today. With a wide array of use. From poking someone in the face to skewering a squirrel, from cutting someone throat to cutting up logs for a fire or cutting barbed wire.

That is very true and more forces were incorporating those types of bayonets into use just not mounting them on the end of rifles and/or training their soldiers in how to use them attached...They called them issue knives!

The ones we had for the FN-FAL weren't sharpened at all, except for the first inch or so was beveled down but I wouldn't call it sharp nor were we given a means of sharpening them--steel, stone or belt sander (which would have been referred)...

 

Zombies...

You can hold them in place with a good bayonet thrust while finishing them off with a head shot or decapitation.

 

Blades Do not need reloading.

 

...and guns do not need to be sharpened. But I get your point

 

I recently picked up a flash hider with a bayonet lug for my M1A so I tracked down a Solingen M6 bayonet with the M8A1 sheath. It's pointed sharp like a dagger for thrusting but the blades are not sharp at all. I could put an edge on it though.

 

Since 2001 how many enemy combat deaths can be attributed to just infantrymen? How many would be attributed to air power? If we're talking percentages of overall kills it's obvious that air power has killed more. That certainly doesn't mean that the infantry would become obsolete in future wars, so why would the relatively few kills by bayonet mean that it should be phased out as an issued weapon?

It's interesting that the US Army is moving away from bayonet training while the British Army still embraces it.

"To close with and kill the enemy is what we do," he explained. "The bayonet will not let you down."

Many said modern weaponry was no substitute for boots on the ground. The grim and gruelling war in Helmand is proving the worth of a six-inch blade with 15 stone of muscle behind it.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Uk-Soldiers-Get-Hand-To-Hand-Fighting-Training-As-More-Battles-Are-Being-Fought-At-Bayonet-Point/Article/200809215098493

Man, I never get tired of reading this story. In microcosm, it's like the militia were some swaggering, cocky, arrogant UFC fighter, and the Brits were freaking Michael Bisping, coming out of nowhere with a flying knee to send their eyeteeth to oblivion.:

Also my 0.2 about the purpose of the bayonet is for Canadians to razz Americans that we still get them on our SKS's. This makes up for our small-pee pee syndrome of 5 round mag capcity.:upsidedown:

[edit]What-the-deuce!? Are those some kind of modern plug bayonets they're using?

 

Bayonets. Handy for when the gun jams while you're doing door to door room service.

Not so handy when your marching like these guys and the front line stops

 

here are some oldies but goodies :thumb:

 

Old guy here. I qualified on the M1, then the M14, then the AR. Went through bayonet training on all of them. I was taught buy the old Korean and WW2 Sgts than had used bayonets in combat. They had a different attitude. Their main worry with the AR was that it was not sturdy enough for bayonet fighting.

Bayonets were for night fighting.

Bayonets were for when you did not have enough time to change mags or jam in a clip.

Bayonets were to be used fast and furiously before the enemy realized you were out of ammo.

Bayonets were never to be sharpened. That is why they come dull as a butter knife. If you sharpen them they get stuck in the bones and you can't pull them back out. A dull bayonet will skip along the bone and not get stuck.

When you see an item like a bayonet, that has been developed over a 300 year period, there is usually a reason for every feature and condition. It may not make sense to you at that exact moment, but it is that way for a reason.

Even during WW1-WW2 the combat forces were issued both knives and bayonets. Knives are for one use, bayonets for another.

And those Britts are not using plug bayonets, they are shooting right through the middle of the unit. The blade is offset and there is a hole through the handle/guard.

 

Old guy here. I qualified on the M1, then the M14, then the AR. Went through bayonet training on all of them. I was taught buy the old Korean and WW2 Sgts than had used bayonets in combat. They had a different attitude. Their main worry with the AR was that it was not sturdy enough for bayonet fighting.

Bayonets were never to be sharpened. That is why they come dull as a butter knife. If you sharpen them they get stuck in the bones and you can't pull them back out. A dull bayonet will skip along the bone and not get stuck.

When you see an item like a bayonet, that has been developed over a 300 year period, there is usually a reason for every feature and condition. It may not make sense to you at that exact moment, but it is that way for a reason.

Even during WW1-WW2 the combat forces were issued both knives and bayonets. Knives are for one use, bayonets for another.

Then why do all the WW1 and WW2 Commonwealth and German/Axis bayonets that I have all come with a factory edge, granted they weren't extremely (razor) sharp but they were sharp[ened]? Some show signs of additional sharpening--stone marks...Enfield, Mauser, Carcano, Arisaka but no Russian or American and even have some hand (not factory) sharpened bayonets for the Martini-Henry rifles we have as every company had an armoury and/or quartermaster Sgt. who always had a tripod mounted grinding/sharpening stone with their baggage and they would sharpen blades before an expectant battle—swords (NCOs and officers) and bayonets just as every cavalry group blacksmith/farrier would do…

Bayonets developed in relation to the barrel length of guns so that a continuous pincushion of blades would be presented in the square to cavalry, even if units got mixed together to form a square...In many cases the Light units would have different weapons altogether from a Line unit and Dragoons would add even more variety...

My Baker rifle - Length 45 3/4 in (1162 mm), Barrel length 30.375 in. (762 mm) has a 24" D-handled sword bayonet making a 70" reach...The 1867 Snider Rifle (Length 49.25 in (1250mm)) and the 1873 Martini-Henry (Length 49 inches (124.5 cm)) both used the 22.7" Pattern 1860 Sword Bayonet and the M-H also used the 17" Pattern 1876 Socket Bayonet replaced with the 1888 Mk II pattern sword bayonet...Notice a pattern to around 70”/175cm…All the sword style blades were sharpened…

I have seen some of my uncle's bayonet blades from WW1 & WW2 and they had stoned off a considerable amount of steel keeping them sharp--too much angle to be razor sharp but sufficient to shave hairs off your arm with...

Most soldiers were only issued a bayonet and until Vietnam they would buy their own fighting/utility knives-- why guys like Hoyt Buck or Bo Randall or John Ek knives came about…Air crews would carry a knife and that was why you had both listed in inventory… Most USA units today frown on personal knives, especially fixed blades, excepting some pocket/folder…Specialty units might get issued both as they have always been the exception to the norm…Marines got their Fighting Knife and a bayonet if they had a Springfield or a Garand and later the M14 but not if they had a Thompson or a BAR…Commando units were issued with Sten guns and Sykes/Fairbairn knives and bayonets only if they had SMLE…

The tendency today is to make bayonets and utility and fighting knives interchangeable so that only one bladed weapon has to be issued and that's been based primarily on cost cutting measures along with changes to tactics...Since we're not holding off cavalry anymore we also don't need 24" blades hanging off our rifles so the shorter and cheaper (less steel) models are issued...

 

It is not just a bayonet. When you attach the bayonet to the end of your rifle, the whole rifle becomes a deadly implement. Sure, you can stick, slash and poke with the bayonet on your rifle but also remember that your rifle is used for horizontal and vertical buttstrokes too. So at one point you use your bayonet to thrust into a target or you use the butt of the rifle to break his jaw/neck so you can then stick him with the bayonet. If you don't have time to mount the bayonet on the rifle, you use it like a fighting knife. What the bayonet gives you is more options for your survival.

Another tool that most people ignore is a good entrenching tool. In WW2 U.S. Army paratroopers used to sharpen their entrenching tools for hand-to-hand fighting situations. In those days if you wanted to see true love all you had to do was check out how much care and tender attention a paratrooper gave his entrenching tool. There are reports of American paratroopers using their e-tools with such force that they almost split an enemy soldier into two parts. An e-tool in the right hands can be a very nasty device.