Ok heres the break down

ESEE 3 vs RAT 3
- The Rat 3 has a shorter handle and many users say that the bevel is uneven on the grind of the RAT 3
-ESEE 3 comes in more styles and colors, offers a MOLLE backing (as do the other models). ESEE 3 has 2 different pommel options, pointed and rounded
-Ontario offers it in 1095 & d2

ESEE 5 vs RAT 5
- ESEEs has a 1/4" thickness, while RAT only has 3/16" neither is better, they both have a different purpose...
-Ontario offers it in 1095 & d2
-Standard crappy ontario shealth.
-Milled pommel on the ESEE is more elegant and maybe even better functioning since it is milled not cut out like RATs

I do not own the larger ontario models, but they are cheaper for a reason and as mentioned here they are:

Bevel/ grind irregularities, sheath design is poor on larger ontario knives, coating can wear easily.

ESEE used to contract their work out to Ontario, when ESEE was still called RAT, as far as I know they are 2 different companies now. RAT handles training, ESEE handles knives and other survival stuff. The main reason was the management and designers at RAT and ESEE were unhappy with the quality Ontario put out. Ontario at that time was more concerned about pumping out product quickly rather than quality. Now, realizing it, they have taken steps to do damage control since they realized they could have skyrocketed profits if they were able to keep quality up to higher standards. Newer Ontario knives like the Spec Plus Gen II line is high quality stuff, with a crappy sheath.

ESEE now leases or contracts their work out to a small company (in Idaho I believe), called Rowen Manufacturing. ESEE guarantees their knives FOR LIFE NO MATTER WHAT! Ontario does not, that is the main difference in price that you see.

 

Fair enough, this is what i was looking for.

 

Actaully, they are one and the same. ESEE and Mr. Randall (the 'R' in RAT is for Randall) have teamed up and now the RAT brand is now ESEE.

I own several of both and feel that they are great knives...although a bit pricey!

I also own a few Ka-Bar's designed by Ethan Becker and feel that these are equally good and can be aquired for a much better price.

My 2¢ anyway!

AC

 

Actually, that is completely incorrect. RAT was Randall's company all along and he changed the name about two years ago to ESEE. Ontario, which used to be affiliated with Randall(hence the "R" in RAT connection), continues to use the "RAT" designation as a brand name, but has nothing to do with Jeff Randall any longer. In other words, though there are similarities in some products and a past working relationship, they are two entirely independent and companies.

 

Hmmm....

Entirely incorrect?

I do not own both?

They are both great knives?

Randall is not now with ESEE?

I may have left out a few details in between the transition from RAT to ESEE but to jump in when I was answering a question regarding which to buy and quote my entire post as incorrect....

Again, hmmm.

 

Yes it was and he explained, quite specifically, which part wasn't...You left out a lot of details.

OP -- Go to the ESEE site and read their history...It's on about four pages in the Company section..

 

ESEE is better quality product, I'm surprised ontario has kept the RAT line going honestly, thought they'd phase it out when started the RANGER line. I like the Rangers better than the RAT too, aside from my RAT 1 folder, man love that knife and cheap.

 

As I understand,and is commonly believed, Ontario screwed Randall out of his trademark "RAT" name, and continues to manufacture so-called "RAT" knives, while Randall changed his company name to ESEE.
Because of this, I and many others refuse to buy any more Ontario knives. and no great loss, as there are lots of great knives out there.

Remember that Randall also had Ontario selling the knives to dealers etc. for them--it wasn't an exclusive run that Randall was selling on his own...They got a catalogue number with a sku number for the bar code scanners based on an Ontario contract not Randall...So Ontario had probably registered the trademark since it's their knife albeit designed by Randall (which they give him credit for) and also sold by Randall to individuals but I don't remember that they were setting up their own dealers or just using Ontario's.

So Ontario makes their knife, publishes in their catalogue, retails it through their dealers and you wonder why they retain the RAT series name...I have no knowledge of the contractual stipulations between them whether it was amicable or not or especially if Randall had to change his company's name just so he could make the ESEE lineup...He could still make the exact same knife (maybe miniscule dimension changes) and call it Happy, Happy knives instead of RAT, or just R-X or RTAC-X and probably wouldn't have violated any contractual stipulations.

After a five year contract they left in 4/2007--if on speaking terms, I don't know but I'd imagine so since ESEE didn't form until 2/1/2010--a few years after Ontario stopped making their knives...Or maybe it took that long for them to force the name change.

I don't care, I have both, like both, use both equally, they are or different sizes, costs and materials (D2) and both models perform to my expectations...I also have some other models by Ontario and enjoy and use them as well...They are a solid company, making good, well priced, knives and are honest over where their goods are made--most in the USA then Taiwan and Italy (great folders).

Ontario sells a lot of knives and has for over 120 years, to the public because they make, for the most part, excellent blades i.e. from Old Hickory and up...Government contracts--remember that the military are getting rid of bayonets altogether (Ontario supplied a vast number) and have never really issued knives to the soldiers--specialists like the Parachutists etc. aside...They are available for personal purchase at the PX right beside Cold Steel, Emerson etc but just not as General Issue.

 

As I understand,and is commonly believed, Ontario screwed Randall out of his trademark "RAT" name, and continues to manufacture so-called "RAT" knives, while Randall changed his company name to ESEE.
Because of this, I and many others refuse to buy any more Ontario knives. and no great loss, as there are lots of great knives out there.

 

I didnt see this at first glance, when did this happen?
I have a Ontario USA RTAK. Can anyone tell me about it, history, ect? Is it any good? Its old I think. Could it be a Randall design?

 

That I think is true, but I think under some contractual things, Ontario is allowed to do that because ESEE allowed them to, not saying there weren't any dirty tricks being played but whats up with Ontario's crappy sheaths? Anyone know?

 

The real question is why does Ontario have military contracts?

 

I like Ontario RD7 and RD9 knives best as they are 1/4 thick.:thumb: I do have a Ontario RAT-7 D2 also.

I like many Ontario knives and Camillus/KaBar Becker Knives:

 

I bought a KaBar Eskabar (i was told) the other day at the gun show.. On one side of the knife it says BK&T with KaBar underneath it, and on the other side of the blade it says Randalls Adventure ESEE 1997. So did I buy a KaBar or an ESEE or did I get ripped off? It came with a sheath with BK&T KaBar sheath.. I'm confused..

 

It is called a collaboration piece--made between two or more makers and each one affixing their names to the knife.

http://www.ka-bar.com/knives/detail/145

You have a great little knife made in Ka-Bar's USA plant.

Little longer then the Becker Necker but the handle isn't as wide and I have big hands...Both priced the same $59.00 MSRP

 

This should answer any questions about the whole Ontario/Rat collusion,split and lawsuit.
This is a thread on Bladeforums,started by "R.A.T. (Randall's Adventure Training)", and he posts a letter from Ontario's attorneys. As I said earlier, the appearance and common consensus is that Ontario is screwing Randall.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...io-s-attorneys

Here's another.......
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...orums/showthread.php/540826-Rumor-of-happenings-between-Ontario-and-RAT-Cutlery

 

This should answer any questions about the whole Ontario/Rat collusion,split and lawsuit.
This is a thread on Bladeforums,started by "R.A.T. (Randall's Adventure Training)", and he posts a letter from Ontario's attorneys. As I said earlier, the appearance and common consensus is that Ontario is screwing Randall.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...io-s-attorneys

Here's another.......
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...orums/showthread.php/540826-Rumor-of-happenings-between-Ontario-and-RAT-Cutlery

They haven't really stolen the name and designs they just haven't paid for them "yet"!

They were given the right to use the RAT name and designs for five years after the April 2007 breakup; which will expire sometime on or about this forthcoming April/May 2012...Paying royalties for any knife designs they continued to produce until that time as well.

I didn't see anywhere where Randall et al was forcefully compelled to change their knife brand to ESEE and they would have their name back in two to four (+) months and force Ontario with a cease and desist order to stop using their RAT name.

As to knives, they just have to alter the butt or add a notch to the blade or change the angle from blade to handle by one or two degrees and presto, changO, you've got a new knife--that just looks like the other one... Now it no longer remains a RAT design and they further change it it by adding it to their new Raptor or Reptilian models of their Guardian Series.

There are numerous companies who are making knives somewhat shaped like ESEE from Busse to ZT so proving their claim to a knife with modifications is nearly impossible...Their name in print or a close proximity to that name is another matter.

Biggest confusion I've always encountered with the Randall name was always between the Adventure Company and Randal Made Knives Orlando, Florida of which there is no comparison.

ESEE makes a fairly limited selection, a niche product line--I'm glad to see they're bringing back the Laser Strike, the only knife and the folder of theirs that I don't own and it's a great design as well...Ontario Knife makes a broader range of knives that encompasses a number of blades that I collect or use, so I'll buy from them as well.

 

I have used both. They are fine. I enjoy the Essee Izula also.