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Forever Vigilant
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here are my thoughts:

For me, SHTF means Civil War. Civil means civilians are involved in fighting the war. This does not mean that there is or is not any organization to this. It could be pockets of organized civilian resistance, it could be a family dug in at home or outbacking it. There is no complete definition of the insanity that could be displayed in a time like this.

Supplies and equipment choices you may decide to have (in or out as some will likely stay put, while other my bug out) for your personal idea of survival and why you would choose those items. I am talking more about the larger items like, guns, tents, vehicles, shelters, etc, not small items like knives, bags, compasses, and such. Obviously, if you say you are packing out, we can assume you are carrying a supplied pack, but what are your long term items?

My concern with a long term Civil War/SHTF scenario comes down to long term survival supplies - Food, water, shelter, ammo, and family care. Not everyone lives in a place where they can reliably hunt for food and those that live out in the country may be overwhelmed with hunters and food could become scarce. Water from a tap would become unavailable if there were long term power outages. If you do not own a home to stay in, what are your shelter options? True roughing it or tents and staying on the move or something else?

What about ammo? We are talking about having to fight for your space on this earth. Chances are that you will most likely have to fire your weapon at civilian gangs that are roaming the neighborhoods, and not trained military. Personally, I could hold off a gang of a dozen or less non-trained thugs, but what happens when ammo gets low after weeks or months of doing this. I would venture to say that unless you have a weapon that fires NATO rounds (.223, .308, 7.62x39/54, 9mm, .40, .45) you will have little chance of finding ammo for your weapon or getting some type of resupply. Keep in mind that during the Vietnam war, it was found that for each confirmed kill of the enemy by a single trained American troop, 10,000 rounds of ammunition was expended. I doubt there are many people that have even 1/2 of that amount.

If you have a family, how do you care for them. Even during a Civil War, people still work. One of you may have a job, how is everyone kept safe. What about kids and school?

Now, for my general answers:
I will be staying put to start if possible.
Food, we stock up. We have dry and paper good to supplement with fresh items from stores. Worst case scenario, we can live off of what we have for a while without supplementing. We also live in a fairly unpopulated rural area with quite a bit of game. It would last for a while. We also have lots of cattle farms. I would barter first, then....I would do whatever was necessary to feed my family.

Water, we have a well, a lake, and a river. We can also catch rain water and store it in a cistern. We can make our own power if necessary with solar and wind.

Our home is our shelter. If we have to leave, we have a small custom off-road capable survival trailer that goes behind our 4x4 that can store lots of food and equipment. It is self-contained, generates power, holds and catches water, and has other shelter supplies in it. Last resort is packing out with small tents and survival supplies.

Guns, all fire NATO ammo. We should get reloading supplies, but spent money on purchasing lots of rounds while they were cheap. I feel that I have a better chance of finding ammo for these from military resupply (errant drops, stolen, or otherwise) and there is much more of this type of ammo around than other types.

Family safety: I would keep everyone very close and home school. No one is getting out of my sight.

What do you say?
 

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Banned
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630 Posts
SMM123,
I agree with your post, I live on a 123 acre farm, off the beaten path, I have 3 wells grow my own food, my house is my castle. From the front of my house I have a 500 yd field of fire, on each side 200 yds and the rear 100yds. My main rifle calibers are 308.,223.7.62x39,5.45x39, 30-06, 30-30 and I have multiple rifles in each caliber. My pistol calibers are 9mm, 40, 45,357mag, 357 sig,44 spl.
Behaind my land is 1000 acres of forest. I am fairly well protected and strtegically located on my property. I also have good neighbors who believe the way I do....
 

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Getting Ready
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1,025 Posts
if a civil war started....

I live in an apt in a college town, I have 3 roommates and a girlfriend. the 5 of us would hunker down in my apt at the beginning. I have some food and water we could get buy for a few days, im working on a month right now but $ is tight. I have four guns and some ammo, again workin on more for both. my cals are .30 carbine, .223, .22 and 12ga. there are wo other groups of friends I would hook up with, both of fourish guys and a few gfs. those two buddys of mine have more guns and both have reloading equipment. from there I dont know this is about as far as ive gotten.

T
 

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I'm the boogey man.......
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6,685 Posts
hunker down, a few close friends would be joining me, all have supplies on hand, run 24hr security in rotating shifts and kill anything that comes near.
 

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Bad Azz M 60 / Proud MM
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1,173 Posts
Communications

I think all the actions talked about in the previous posts are responsible. There seems to be a common element missing. And that is communications. If we were to experience such an event as discussed in this thread I doubt very much we would have cell phone service. I also doubt we would have internet, or standard telephone service. There will be a need to communicate. What to do?

Here is a thought. Ham Radio. Code is no longer required although study is. There are three classes, Technician, General, and Advanced. Technician class will allow you to communicate locally, while General and Advanced class will allow you to communicate for hundreds or thousands of miles. There is plenty of information available on the internet and who knows you might find it interesting.

I am a licensed ham operator and I believe that if there were such an event as discussed in this thread it would be a good idea to have the ability to communicate as well as protect and defend my family and friends.

CAV104
 

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Adaptable.
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1,978 Posts
getting my ham license first week of December!

Honestly, if civil war broke out, I'd probably be working with my county to keep everyone out: we're well situated, hideously wooded, and have city council forums on emergency localization in three of the five big towns here.
 

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I think all the actions talked about in the previous posts are responsible. There seems to be a common element missing. And that is communications. If we were to experience such an event as discussed in this thread I doubt very much we would have cell phone service. I also doubt we would have internet, or standard telephone service. There will be a need to communicate. What to do?

Here is a thought. Ham Radio. Code is no longer required although study is. There are three classes, Technician, General, and Advanced. Technician class will allow you to communicate locally, while General and Advanced class will allow you to communicate for hundreds or thousands of miles. There is plenty of information available on the internet and who knows you might find it interesting.

I am a licensed ham operator and I believe that if there were such an event as discussed in this thread it would be a good idea to have the ability to communicate as well as protect and defend my family and friends.

CAV104
Cav, it's tech, general and Extra not advanced...

I'm a VEC member...
 

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I'm ready. I can bug out, I can stay put. I can head to a planned BOL or I can book out for parts unknown. We have multiple BOVs and ample equipment and supplies. Every part of our lives are multiple threaded, and they are interleaved. My daughters love shooting for fun. We practice wilderness survival skills for fun. When we can't get away, we live the outdoor life right in our back yard. I have a true offroad popup camper as well, it's been places that most wheelers wouldnt dream of going without a trailer. I married a woman who enjoys roughing it and doesnt have a hissy when she has to use a slit trench. Our neighbors and friends think its great, that we spend do much time together as a family and have so much fun playing "Grizzly Adams". We bring friends of the kids' along camping, and they are always camping out in the back yard, only a third of the time in the camper, and quite often on the bare ground under the stars. Every member of my famiy including my 11 year old are licensed ham radio operators, we are all trained weather spotters and members of SkyWarn. My wife's father grew up on a farm, my wife worked on it on weekends when she was young, our kids know about farming, animal husbandry and how to plant and cultivate crops, they know and practice equestrian arts regularly. Both of them maintain minimum 3.9GPAs thanks to all the extra time and resources my wife and I give them. They know how to use hand tools, change oil, do tune ups and basic mechanics. They are being raised the same way I was. Above and beyond all the hard core gear, weaponry and preps, they are our assurance that we will keep going long term, because of their knowledge and skills... and because they will add to and not be a drain on our efforts.
 

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Sounds like you are doing the right thing. I have been working a lot and I have put down my guard for too long. When I was younger, my grandfather taught me how to hunt and turn a shotgun into a muzzle loader in case you ran out of ammo. My buddy's and I never brought food on camp outs, we just hunted and forged for everything. We also made our own shelters out of what mother nature has given us. My children are still young, but are at or close to the age that they need to know what I have learned in my life for survival. I am glad I ran across this thread, because I never thought about Ham radios. I am going to look into it and include it into my training/fun time with my family. If I had to choose what weapon to take with me when TSHTF time comes, all I need is a couple of 410's and single shot 12 gauge if survival is at hand along with my hand gun. I can turn the 410 and the 12 gauge into 5 different types of weapons without worrying about ammunition shortages.
 

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Forever Vigilant
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2,260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I am guessing some of you have never heard the term "Radiate and die." Ham radios put out such powerful transmissions that if you are trying to stay out of the limelight in a bad situation, the very moment you key the transmitter, you are found with some very simple and inexpensive equipment. Further, who thinks that anyone will give a rats ass about who has a license or not in a SHTF situation? Though communications are an obvious requirement, especially when coordinating an attack or defense, I think Ham could be more of a liability (when transmitting) when trying to stay invisible.

Is a Ham good to have? Yes. Can it get you found and/or killed? Yes. Comms is a small portion of my military background, and it was (and still is) the most common way to locate someone, spy on them, track them, and if necessary, eliminate them.

I have considered keeping a pack of secure FRS radios for attack and defense coordination. I also know that using them is a form of electronic "radiation," but knowing that I am about to radiate sound in the form of gunfire, alleviates my overall concern. I know that once I do radiate sound and/or electronic emissions, that I must vacate the area if I survive, as there was probably someone listening with others on the way.

Silence is golden. Listening is wisdom. Listen with your Ham and try to never transmit on it unless it is an emergency. It has long been known that the most secure form of communication is by courier, and it is still not 100% secure.
 

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Student/Teacher
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164 Posts
In a fight survival would most likely be short term not long, in the civil war thousands died. If you expect to have long term survival in a combat area your only real choice is not to be found. bullets run out, houses burn, and you can only stay under ground for so long. A patient aggressor will lay siege and win in the long run, just look at the Roman siege tactics and success. If you choose to fight then be prepared to die, and yes there are things worth dieing for.
 

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Forever Vigilant
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2,260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
In a fight survival would most likely be short term not long, in the civil war thousands died. If you expect to have long term survival in a combat area your only real choice is not to be found. bullets run out, houses burn, and you can only stay under ground for so long. A patient aggressor will lay siege and win in the long run, just look at the Roman siege tactics and success. If you choose to fight then be prepared to die, and yes there are things worth dieing for.
Hillwog,

I hate to burst your bubble, but The Civil War lasted from 1861-1865 and pretty much the entire county was a war zone. I do not consider that "short term." Further, there were 620,000 deaths and millions of injured in The Civil War. Keep in mind that the weapon of choice were muskets with a fire rate of 2 rounds per minute and an accurate range of 70 yards in the hands of an average troop. The average troop also did not look where they were firing due in large part to the spark from the flint right next to their eyes. Yes there were some that could get 3 rounds per minute and accuracy to much longer ranges, but the history is still the same when compared to today.

Consider that every other country that has gone through any type of civil war in the past 40 or so years that MILLIONS died, not thousands. Why, because of accurate, high rate of fire (600-1200 rpm) weapons that even in untrained civilian hands are very deadly when compared to the US Civil War weapons. Also, keep in mind that modern civil wars have also lasted several years and in some cases decades! Again, I consider these time periods to be long term. So, regardless of your perceptions, this thread is about LONG TERM survival equipment, preps, and tactics. If you want to add something along these parameters, please do. Otherwise stop jacking a thread you obviously have no historical knowledge basis to comment on.

I do agree with you that not being found is always of great importance (hence my "Radiate and die" philosophy), as well as being prepared to die if you decide to start lobbing bullets down range (again "Radiate and die"). That is part of what this thread is about, figuring out this stuff. Further, the aggressors that I spoke of and believe to be the most likely form most will face are bands of well armed roaming thugs, not military/militia as in the Roman sieges with trained military. I doubt thugs would lay siege on a single home/shelter that was defending with like or greater firepower, especially if adjacent homes opened fire as well, when there are easier targets on every block. However, if they decide to lay siege, preparedness is the key. Eliminate them all, and more will eventually come in a long term situation, hence my question about resupply and or preparedness for a long term situation.
 

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Scarred for life...
Joined
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3,295 Posts
I think all the actions talked about in the previous posts are responsible. There seems to be a common element missing. And that is communications. If we were to experience such an event as discussed in this thread I doubt very much we would have cell phone service. I also doubt we would have internet, or standard telephone service. There will be a need to communicate. What to do?

Here is a thought. Ham Radio. Code is no longer required although study is. There are three classes, Technician, General, and Advanced. Technician class will allow you to communicate locally, while General and Advanced class will allow you to communicate for hundreds or thousands of miles. There is plenty of information available on the internet and who knows you might find it interesting.

I am a licensed ham operator and I believe that if there were such an event as discussed in this thread it would be a good idea to have the ability to communicate as well as protect and defend my family and friends.

CAV104


Is there a guide to how to get the various licenses? Anything on the web you would recommend?
 

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Bad Azz M 60 / Proud MM
Joined
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1,173 Posts
I am guessing some of you have never heard the term "Radiate and die." Ham radios put out such powerful transmissions that if you are trying to stay out of the limelight in a bad situation, the very moment you key the transmitter, you are found with some very simple and inexpensive equipment. Further, who thinks that anyone will give a rats ass about who has a license or not in a SHTF situation? Though communications are an obvious requirement, especially when coordinating an attack or defense, I think Ham could be more of a liability (when transmitting) when trying to stay invisible.

Is a Ham good to have? Yes. Can it get you found and/or killed? Yes. Comms is a small portion of my military background, and it was (and still is) the most common way to locate someone, spy on them, track them, and if necessary, eliminate them.

I have considered keeping a pack of secure FRS radios for attack and defense coordination. I also know that using them is a form of electronic "radiation," but knowing that I am about to radiate sound in the form of gunfire, alleviates my overall concern. I know that once I do radiate sound and/or electronic emissions, that I must vacate the area if I survive, as there was probably someone listening with others on the way.

Silence is golden. Listening is wisdom. Listen with your Ham and try to never transmit on it unless it is an emergency. It has long been known that the most secure form of communication is by courier, and it is still not 100% secure.
I was in the comm section of a cavalry unit so I am aware of the "Radiate and Die" scenario. But then again a Cavalry Unit is mobile and always in need of communications. Modern day Cavalry Units cannot function without commo.

I agree with you that in a SHTF situation a license is not needed and if you have a couple of FRS units that is fine. But keep this in mind, if you don't acquire a license you will most likely not know how to operate the equipment. It is not plug and play. Ham radio transmissions are only as powerful as the operator deems necessary. 5 watts to 1,500 watts legally. Hence it it a good idea to take a course, study the material and pass the exams. Even then you will need hands on experience. By the way, my inexpensive and very simple equipment cost around $4,500.00. And in the ham world that is inexpensive.

Can it get you dead? Sure, but that is why this forum is here. To inform.

One more thing, a SHTF scenario can include hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes. Ham's are always there.

These sites will give you an idea as to what equipment is on today's market.

http://www.hamradio.com/

http://www.universal-radio.com/

CAV104
 

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Bad Azz M 60 / Proud MM
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1,173 Posts
Anyone can operate a Citizen Band radio. You must be licensed by the FCC to operate a ham radio. Ham operators work in the hf, uhf, and vhf spectrum as well as microwave. Go to the site
www.arrl.org you can learn more about it there.

CAV104
 

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Forever Vigilant
Joined
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2,260 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Consider SSB instead of Ham. Same radios, same antennas, same tuners, no license required, can be opened up to Ham freqs, and usually costs less. Further, the operation of a Ham or SSB is not difficult. You can learn everything you need to know from a book. The biggest area to concentrate on is the antenna - how it is made, how it is placed, material choices, and connections. It seems that every Ham I meet is a fanatic - similar to survivalists.... ;)
 

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I'm ignorant on this subject.

Can someone explain the difference between ham radios and CB's?
ham radio gets through, cb sucks is the best way to put it. Ham rigs are professional class radios, there is no such thing as a true professional class cb, ham uses different frequencies, operated by people who know what they are doing for the most part, check out the link!
 
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