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Last of the First Line
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Discussion Starter #1
Yes.... EOSAWKI... End Of Services As We Know It.

I'm surprised as the number of posts on this site with expectations of a continuation of services after a major SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation. (Major - not a hurricane, or a snowstorm, but something that causes a breakdown in the functioning of the majority of normal society.)

There are discussions of GPS, banking, the Armed Forces, Government, police - and what to expect.

I say, expect nothing - or expect the worst.

The GPS system can go down after only a few hours without monitoring. The $150 you spent on your Garmin "battery holder" would probably have been better spent on a compass, topo maps, and more ammo/food/whatever.

Banking? Don't expect there to be a system for the withdrawal of funds that only existed as electrons in a computer system. Don't rely on the banks to store all of your wealth (however great or small it is).

Armed Forces? They're people too. Some of them will stay and do their duty - but some of them will go and tend to their families. Don't rely on them - or any government agency, like FEMA - to provide any kind of service.

Police/FD/EMS - expect the same thing... No services, or severely diminished capabilities. Officer John and his buddies can't come deal with your home invasion problem when they're trying to keep everybody and his unprepared brother from breaking in to Jim Bob's Guns 'n' Such.

The list could go on and on... Dentists, mechanics, butchers, farmers, lumberjacks, framers, electricians, plumbers...


All I'm really trying to get at is one simple point... If there is a service that you cannot provide for your family, or your family cannot provide for itself, do not expect it that it will otherwise be available. Learn to do without those services, learn the alternatives, learn as many skills as you can.

(Sorry for the preachy tone of this post...) :D:
 

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I see a good point here. In my mind EOSAWKI will result in SHTF/TEOTWAWKI.

I define SHTF/TEOTWAWKI as how people in my community act since that will have the most direct result on my life.

No matter what happens while the power and water are on people will generally stay inline. Once the power and water turns off then people start getting desperate in a matter of days.
 

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Services? Hmmm, an intersting concept and WHY the American "Sevice Economy" is a joke.

100 years ago most areas of the US supported themselves, now we are dependant on transportation of non-local goods, not a secure situation.

Without ample security the transportation of goods is finished. without banking people may not be paid for their work (unless Obama enslaves them through Natioinalization of the workforce somehow).

The less dependant you are on services the better; rural folks by nature take less for granted perhaps... we have septic systems and drilled wells even though we may need power to pump water.
(we have a dug well, rope & bucket in addition to the drilled well)

The great fear of rural America is that service dependant urban Americans will overwhelm us WTSHTF... by & large we don't like urban americans and consider them fat, dumb and lazy (not to mention anti-American government dependant liberal cry babies...

My town has no services, no cops and 8 volunteer firemen; we have no schools, no dump, no mayor and three selectmen who do the town's business during two hours each week... the town clerk works about 10 hours. We have no town employees, no road crew, no water district and no waste water treatment system. We have about 950 residents with 144 being school kids that are bused to a neighboring town for education which is 90% of our town budget.

I guess we are accustomed to no services; security is not a worry.
 

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Prep to LIVE a good life!
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Thanks for bringing this up. You're right. The gimmicks, electronics etc... are useless toys if things go extreme. Hopefully things will never go that wrong, but if they do are you really prepared for self-sufficiency? Are you in this to survive or live well? All the preparations we have made can carry us through disruption all the way to complete off the grid independence. (Hence, my user name) We simply don't need anyone except for the possible extreme medical, but we're working on that part too.
 

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"The GPS system can go down after only a few hours without monitoring. The $150 you spent on your Garmin "battery holder" would probably have been better spent on a compass, topo maps, and more ammo/food/whatever."

Just gotta pick on this a bit. I have my "battery holder" (like the phrase, made me smile) because I have fun with it. Same thing with a lot of other toys. I mean I've got the disposable income and am sitting great on preps so why not? My whole life doesn't revolve around teotwawki. I sincerely hope yours doesn't either. Not trying to berate or single anyone out but have seen a couple posts/threads lately that have been in this vein. Life is for living.

If my GPSr does go gunnysack after whatever happens, then oh well. Thats why we have topographical maps, compasses, aerial photographs and the know how to make it all work.
 

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Knocked Down But Up Again
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Let's also not forget people with minimum wage jobs. Most grocery store cashiers make minimum wage and will be a lot less likely to come into work in an emergency situation. That translates into three cashiers showing up to ring the grocery orders of literally hundreds of shoppers. If you want to see crazy, just come into my grocery store after snow has been predicted.
 

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Wide awake
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This is a very interesting - and appropriate - post.

Systems disruption (which includes disruption of both basic systems and services) is one of the fundamentals that has made modern insurgencies so successful. Here's how it works: If basic services are disrupted, the government loses legitimacy, then ultimately fails to demand the obedience of the populace, resulting in social upheaval. This is what has made Iraq so hard to fight and win. After all, it takes one guy to destroy a power cable, but a company of soldiers to secure it.

A lot of defense planners believe that systems disruption will make the modern notion of state obselete, i.e., too difficult to maintain/defend. There's a professional monograph called The New Dark Age which discusses this in depth. Bottom line, the loss of services will result in complete social disorder.

Good thread.

_______________________________________

"Civilize the mind, but make savage the body."
 

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Because of the wide spread naure of "Services" it would take something very big to cause a total disurption. I could see intermitant disruptions occuring...depending on the situation. Total and irreversable disruptions? would mean were are back in the stone age...well maybe the middle ages...LOL
 

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Last of the First Line
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Discussion Starter #9
Because of the wide spread naure of "Services" it would take something very big to cause a total disurption. I could see intermitant disruptions occuring...depending on the situation. Total and irreversable disruptions? would mean were are back in the stone age...well maybe the middle ages...LOL
I said, at the top of the post, "I'm surprised as the number of posts on this site with expectations of a continuation of services after a major SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation. (Major - not a hurricane, or a snowstorm, but something that causes a breakdown in the functioning of the majority of normal society.)"

So - something major - like a bird flu pandemic/epidemic or something else that even the sheeple would notice without their TV's or newspapers spoonfeeding them the story...

All I was trying to get at was that people should not expect services, nor rely on any - not even the most basic ones - in a post-SHTF/TEOTWAWKI situation, other than what they can provide for themselves.

Stocking up on food and ammo and whatever else is great. Stocking up on knowledge/skills is just as important, if not, more important.
 

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Last of the First Line
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Discussion Starter #10
Just gotta pick on this a bit. I have my "battery holder" (like the phrase, made me smile) because I have fun with it. Same thing with a lot of other toys. I mean I've got the disposable income and am sitting great on preps so why not?
I'm not saying you shouldn't buy a battery holder. :D: Sure, it'll be fun to use. But people should realize - like you apparently do - that GPS isn't something permanent. It isn't something to be relied on.

My whole life doesn't revolve around teotwawki. I sincerely hope yours doesn't either. Not trying to berate or single anyone out but have seen a couple posts/threads lately that have been in this vein. Life is for living.
My life doesn't revolve around TEOTWAWKI either. Just realizing that it could happen, and I need to take steps to survive it, has improved my life - has made me venture "outside the box". I'm seeking a different kind of knowledge on top of the stuff I was already into, reading a bit more diversely, improving my skill levels.

If my GPSr does go gunnysack after whatever happens, then oh well. Thats why we have topographical maps, compasses, aerial photographs and the know how to make it all work.
That's what I was getting at - providing for yourself, instead of relying on others. You get it... I think most posters here do, and that I was "preaching to the choir". But sometimes you just have to say what you have to say... And my post was my "have to say".
 

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No kidding OP, great post.

I read an editorial in my local newspaper a few weeks ago.....the guy wrote that if we go into a depression it will not be nearly as bad as the one in the 30s because of all the government programs in place now.

Who is he kidding? The government is bankrupt and the money supply will be worthless!
 

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(QUOTE)"...it would take something very big to cause a total disurption. I could see intermitant disruptions occuring...depending on the situation."

I recently heard something on the news about our entire electrical grid being in critically desperate need of overhaul, that we're hanging on by our fingernails, and that it wouldn't take much to "blow a fuse" and leave huge chunks of the country in the dark, indefinately.
 

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Hey Raptor ... I agree with your end-of-services concept ... but you may want to tone down the anti-urban rhetoric.

I for one live in an urban area - Atlanta - but don't meet your definition and implication of all urban dwellers as "fat, dumb and lazy (not to mention anti-American government dependant liberal cry babies...".

I am conservative (not liberal), own a company and employ people (not lazy), etc.

That is the problem with broad statements such as yours, they are rarely accurate.

There are many "urban dwellers" such as me on this board and elsewhere who have a rural soul and mindset but are forced through modern economic reality to live and work in urban areas. However, my wife and I have a move to country acreage in the works and plan to ditch this urban life soon.

But at the core of your anti-urban statements I do see a kernel of truth ... that in general ... in general mind you, many (not most), but many urbanites are ill-equipped to handle a lack of basic services such as electricity, timely food deliveries to grocery stores, timely fuel deliveries to gas stations, etc. I think perhaps that was the point that you were trying to get across?
 

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Sapper, could you post here a URL to that monograph that you mentioned? The New Dark Age".
 

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cute is not always enough
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HammerHand, while I agree with your sentiment, I am not sure where you found all these posts about continuation of services. If anything, I see the opposite theme is much more prevalent: no more electricity, gas, or water ever; no more food; cops and military actively working against the people; every man for his own and everyone not in your MAG is suddenly a mutant killer zombie.
 

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HammerHand, while I agree with your sentiment, I am not sure where you found all these posts about continuation of services. If anything, I see the opposite theme is much more prevalent: no more electricity, gas, or water ever; no more food; cops and military actively working against the people; every man for his own and everyone not in your MAG is suddenly a mutant killer zombie.
Yeah...way more posts along those lines, rather than posts about people expecting services.

My blindside is not in the prepping but in the what to do/expect in the aftermath...I put alot of energy into getting prepared, but little thought into the long term afterwards.

I'll make a best guess, that restoring the services and grid will be high on the long term "to do" lists of post apocalyptic survivors. Kinda like Stephen Kings movie The Stand...
 

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AAAH GET TO ZE CHOPPA!
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In general, during any kind of disaster I expect first responders to either be funneled into "ground zero" of the crisis for containment purposes, or they will be spread so thin that they are easily avoided or overwhelmed. Also consider that our services are designed to maintain us when everything is normal. During a crisis, everyone panics and that alone will cause systems to break down. Even when cell networks are "up," they are VERY easily overloaded by a crisis; they are usually one of the first things to go. During the Cho shooting, we couldn't even get texts through to each other :(

While part of this is the gadget side of me getting cravings, I am tempted to get an eeePC or similar netbook, and rig up a 12V battery with a solar panel. I have acquired too much info from this site to print, and having a portable repository for it would be nice. This setup would also let you charge most smaller devices (especially with an inverter around; inefficient I know but it works). That's for later though, when I have that much money to throw around. Since my work and social life rely heavily on computers, I kind of feel like a lump when I don't have access to one.

Bottom line, if you want to incorporate electronics into your gear you'll need to stock plenty of power. Or, have an "analog" or self-powered backup to your digital gadgets. Examples:

garmin ---> map
battery flashlights ----> solar charger, solar light or crank light.
cell ----> cb radio?
 

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Green Eggs and Spam
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(QUOTE)I recently heard something on the news about our entire electrical grid being in critically desperate need of overhaul, that we're hanging on by our fingernails, and that it wouldn't take much to "blow a fuse" and leave huge chunks of the country in the dark, indefinately.
Almost EVERYTHING can get really hard to obtain, and yet most people will adapt.

But, people really don't know what to do when the POWER goes out.

NONE of the electronic toys work anymore. Can't even plug the cell phone into the wall charger. There would be NO internet (even if house was powered with a generator of some kind) and radio for only a short while.

It is odd to think, but satelites have self-sustaining power systems. Satelite radio may stay On-Air longer then local stations.

So long as the power is on, I'm not that worried.
 
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