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Enfield origins

3825 Views 21 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  dreiwhit, 
H
Folks,

got an SMLE for Christmas, trying to determine country of manufacture. I've attached a pic hoping some of our resident enfield sme's can help determine its origin. I'm thinking it's either ishapore or turkish..

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Dutchmano1
hoplite59 said:
Folks,

got an SMLE for Christmas, trying to determine country of manufacture. I've attached a pic hoping some of our resident enfield sme's can help determine its origin. I'm thinking it's either ishapore or turkish..
Click to expand...
I'm sorry no one's answered your question here. This isn't really much of a forum for milsurps other than mosin nagants and a couple of mauser guys like myself. I might suggest the military surplus forum. They'll have a sub forum for the smle's.

I can get you part way there tho. The turks were primarily mauser users. That leaves the british or the ishapore arsenal in india as the "probable" manufacturer of your rifle.
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K
Get a pic of the receiver and I'll fill you in buddy. Finding out about my Enfield was interesting and rewarding.
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Lone Star
hoplite59 said:
Folks,

got an SMLE for Christmas, trying to determine country of manufacture. I've attached a pic hoping some of our resident enfield sme's can help determine its origin. I'm thinking it's either ishapore or turkish..
Click to expand...
Ishapore says Ishapore on it. Turkish copies of Enfields will not be marked with the Crown or GB...My bet is it was made in Great Britain or Austrialia.

I have a Mark IV made in Ishapore (1949) and a Mark III made in Great Britain.
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Dutchmano1
Lone Star said:
Ishapore says Ishapore on it. Turkish copies of Enfields will not be marked with the Crown or GB...My bet is it was made in Great Britain or Austrialia.

I have a Mark IV made in Ishapore (1949) and a Mark III made in Great Britain.
Click to expand...
turks made smellies?
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L
The Turks always favored the mauser over the enfield because when they were part of the Ottoman Empire the Germans supplied their allies with mausers in the lead up to world war 1. Then after the war was over they stayed with that design because they already had many and the armorers and factories were already trained on how to work on them and build them while the enfield was a completely new design. As for where yours is from im far from an expert but it should tell you if it was a longbranch( Australia) or an ishapore(India). If not its probably a British one. This might be helpful though http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=376466 . Also look there might be an import mark that tells you where it came from.
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H
Thanks Gents, I appreciate everybody's input. I had some time to sit down and do some research tonight with the nasty storm blowing in which canceled my range trip . This isn't a lithgow (australian), I picked one of those up a few months ago and it does not have any of the markings. No Ishapore markings either. Also, nothing showing markings that would lend itself to Turkish origin .

It is full of cosmo but the wood is very nice, much better than the Lithgow I picked up a few months back. Hope it shoots as well as my Lithgow. Anyhow, hopefully Al or one of the other enfield guys will chime in.

Thanks Boys, Happy New Year !
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gearheadon44s
I've got a 303 british jungle carbine that I love. I killed my first deer with it. My dad bought it at a police auction before they started destroying firearms. It was wrapped in a greased wool blanket. I still find cosmolene sometimes when I clean it.
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Lone Star
Dutchmano1 said:
turks made smellies?
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None used by the British Empire but they did and do copy just about any firearm. SMLE's are/were popular in the Turkish arms bazzars.
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S
iirc, some were made both in Canada and the US as well as those places already mentioned.
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T
from what you have there it is probably a british made pre WW1 Rifle the GR 1913? as it isn't a 3*. Can you get a pic of the other side of the receiver
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Life at the Beach
gearheadon44s said:
I've got a 303 british jungle carbine that I love. I killed my first deer with it. My dad bought it at a police auction before they started destroying firearms. It was wrapped in a greased wool blanket. I still find cosmolene sometimes when I clean it.
Click to expand...
That's really cool.
I've seen too many Mosin-Nagants due to Enemy at the Gates. That .303, it's a little under a .308; right? I've been having a thing for the rifle more and more lately.
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gearheadon44s
303 is just a little under a 308. They make a nice brush gun. I see them used at hauk shops all the time for under under 200. Some are even sporterized. Ammo selection is a little lacking. I just buy fmj when I see it on sale shoot it then reload what I want.
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firstforcerecon
It was manufactured in England. Very Nice find. The Australians produced and issued the SMLE number 3 up until 1956. There are few rifles in the World that can best one of those for long range accuracy if its "tuned" properly. The Taliban love them even today.
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H
firstforcerecon said:
It was manufactured in England. Very Nice find. The Australians produced and issued the SMLE number 3 up until 1956. There are few rifles in the World that can best one of those for long range accuracy if its "tuned" properly. The Taliban love them even today.
Click to expand...
Thanks , lots of work getting the cosmo cleaned out of this enfield. The action isn't as smooth as I would like but hopefully that will improve as the clean up progresses. Looking to take it to get headspace checked out by gunsmith.
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J
Yes as others have said this was probably made in GB. Does it have the magazine cut off and/or volley sights?
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SeekHer
Life at the Beach said:
That's really cool.
I've seen too many Mosin-Nagants due to Enemy at the Gates. That .303, it's a little under a .308; right? I've been having a thing for the rifle more and more lately.
Click to expand...
gearheadon44s said:
303 is just a little under a 308. They make a nice brush gun. I see them used at hauk shops all the time for under under 200. Some are even sporterized. Ammo selection is a little lacking. I just buy fmj when I see it on sale shoot it then reload what I want.
Click to expand...
Sorry guys, but the .303 is actually bigger then the .308.

The .303 (7.7x57Rmm) use a .311/312 bullet (same as the Arisaka (7.7x58mm) and Mosin Nagant (7.62x54Rmm) and SKS/AK (7.62x39mm)) whereas the .308 (7.62x51mm) or .30/06 (7.62x63mm) uses the .308/7.62mm bullet...The Mauser used a 7.92x57mm.

SMLE makers:
Great Britain-- Royal Small Arms Factory in Enfield and at seven other (and differently marked) plants.
Canada--Longbranch Arsenal
Australia--Lithgow Arsenal
India--Ishapore Arsenal
USA--Savage Arms only during WW2 and ALL marked "US Property".
Pakistan--Pakistan Ordnance Factories

They were never made in Turkey.

Country: United Kingdom
Markings-------Factory
Enfield -- Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield
Sparkbrook -- Royal Small Arms Factory (Sparkbrook)
BSA Co -- The Birmingham Small Arms Company Limited
LSA Co -- London Small Arms Co. Ltd
ROF (F) -- Royal Ordnance Factory (Fazakerley)
ROF (M) -- Royal Ordnance Factory (Maltby)
B -- The Birmingham Small Arms Company Limited
M47C -- Birmingham Small Arms Factory (Shirley)

Other Countries
Longbranch -- Canada
Lithgow -- Australia
GRI -- British India
RFI -- India (Post-Independence)
US PROPERTY -- Savage Arms U.S.
POF -- Pakistan

Sources:
Skennerton, Ian.....The Lee-Enfield Story.
Arms & Militaria Press. (1993) ISBN 1-85367-138-X.
Hogg, Ian V.....The Complete Illustrated Encyclopedia of the World's Firearms
A&W Publishers (1978) ISBN 978-0-89479-031-7.

You want additional info on your SMLE then try the Surplus Rifle Forum
http://www.surplusrifle.com/

Are you getting Indian FMJ as they still produce some but for the most part mil-surp ammo is a dead issue...All you can do is buy factory stuff or the brass.
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H
SeekHer said:
Sorry guys, but the .303 is actually bigger then the .308.

The .303 (7.7x57Rmm) use a .311/312 bullet (same as the Arisaka (7.7x58mm) and Mosin Nagant (7.62x54Rmm) and SKS/AK (7.62x39mm)) whereas the .308 (7.62x51mm) or .30/06 (7.62x63mm) uses the .308/7.62mm bullet...The Mauser used a 7.92x57mm.

SMLE makers:
Great Britain-- Royal Small Arms Factory in Enfield and at seven other (and differently marked) plants.
Canada--Longbranch Arsenal
Australia--Lithgow Arsenal
India--Ishapore Arsenal
USA--Savage Arms only during WW2 and ALL marked "US Property".
Pakistan--Pakistan Ordnance Factories

They were never made in Turkey.

Country: United Kingdom
Markings-------Factory
Enfield -- Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield
Sparkbrook -- Royal Small Arms Factory (Sparkbrook)
BSA Co -- The Birmingham Small Arms Company Limited
LSA Co -- London Small Arms Co. Ltd
ROF (F) -- Royal Ordnance Factory (Fazakerley)
ROF (M) -- Royal Ordnance Factory (Maltby)
B -- The Birmingham Small Arms Company Limited
M47C -- Birmingham Small Arms Factory (Shirley)

Other Countries
Longbranch -- Canada
Lithgow -- Australia
GRI -- British India
RFI -- India (Post-Independence)
US PROPERTY -- Savage Arms U.S.
POF -- Pakistan

Sources:
Skennerton, Ian.....The Lee-Enfield Story.
Arms & Militaria Press. (1993) ISBN 1-85367-138-X.
Hogg, Ian V.....The Complete Illustrated Encyclopedia of the World's Firearms
A&W Publishers (1978) ISBN 978-0-89479-031-7.

You want additional info on your SMLE then try the Surplus Rifle Forum
http://www.surplusrifle.com/

Are you getting Indian FMJ as they still produce some but for the most part mil-surp ammo is a dead issue...All you can do is buy factory stuff or the brass.
Click to expand...


I've been using PPU brass for my Lithgow.
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K
I'd like to see a fuller picture before I looked it up, but it looks British by markings so far.
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D
BTW, is the date 1916 or 1918? I can't tell from the picture.

If it was made by Lithgow or Ishapore, you would see either of those maker's name on the butt socket (I've seen Ishapore Mk IIIs with no maker's name but they have a late 40s-early 50s date on them) Normally, the maker is stamped on the right side of the butt socket, between GR (George Rex) and the date. There was one exception, though.

If you put your SMLE up to your shoulder, or hold it like you were in the ready position, look on the left side of the tang, left of the bolt near where the safety is attached to the receiver. Do you see the letters SSA or NRF on there?

If so, you have a SMLE that had a receiver manufactured by Standard Small Arms or the National Rifle Factory (SSA became the NRF on 1 June 1918 after takeover by the ministry of munitions.)

SSA was a contractor in what was referred to back then as the "Peddled Scheme". The Peddled Scheme was a new concept where instead of having all of the parts for the rifle made by one company, many small manufacturers would make a part or two, and all of these parts would be brought together to assemble whole rifles. In the beginning, SSA was supposed to make entire rifles, but they weren't up to it so they joined the other companies in the Peddled Scheme. SSA was only supposed to manufacture bolts, barrels, trigger guards, and receivers. SSA didn't make its first receivers until 1916. They reached a tolerable level of production by 1918, but SSA went bankrupt in 1918. The Ministry of Munitions took over and renamed SSA as the National Rifle Factor No 1. NRF produced about 50,000 bodies before the end of the war, at which point it was shut down.

If this is indeed an SSA or NRF SMLE, you need to kiss the person who got it for you. SSA and NRF SMLE's are much more scarce than Enfield, BSA or LSA SMLEs because there were fewer of them produced. On a scale of 1 to 100 for UK SMLE manufacturers, SSA would be about 2 and NRF about 3 (although Ian Skennerton says there were only about 50,000 NRF receivers made.)

Let us know!
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